81 replies to this topic

[VXJaeger]

Year of PPC ****** was enough, so that would be

NO!!!

[Aiden Skye]

PGI should make it so gauss charges up while PPC drains a lot of energy so their use at the same time is limited.
I never really play meta builds but I do like using ER-PPC's. Right now they are too slow and you are still stuck with all that heat. Opportunites are already rare to use the full range of the weapon thanks to the abundance of cover, urban / smaller maps, maps like terra thema.

In this game where you cannot pick your weapons for the map, bringing ER-PPC's is a real gamble. Better to go with something safe. I do not like that at all.

And what about the clan PPC's. At least the IS has the opportunity for the standard PPC with less heat and range ( most maps you don't even need that range ) ER-PPC for clans and that's it.

Also guys PPCs by themselves are fine. When was the last time someone complained about an single ER-PPC spider or a dual PPC Catapult K2 as OP? Its when you stack guass on top of it its a problem. I think its time PPC speed be brought back up and the use of guass and PPC at the same time be limited.

Edited by W A R K H A N, 02 September 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

I'm happy with the current PPC speeds. Add AC10 and profit.

The Basilisk, on 01 September 2014 - 04:31 AM, said:

Their only ( not lore conform and in my opinion the reason for the PPC problem ) advantage is their frontloaded damage and low weight in conjunction with ammo independence ( not a real advantage in MWO since loading large ammounts of ammo is without consequences in MWO).

But you're correct. They should add more risk to carrying ammo.

[Nightmare1]

Yeah, PPCs need the buff. In the previous state, ERLLs and PPCs were the only weapons energy boats had to try and survive LRM and Gauss boats. Now that they've both been nerfed into the ground (PPCs especially) energy boats don't really have a leg to stand on. I suppose you could keep running brawler builds like I do to maintain their usefulness, but their versatility is so hampered that it's not really worth doing so. Regardless, they still have no counter for Gauss and LRMs.

Case in point, I have a TDR with three PPCs. It was a decent Mech. Not great, but decent. Now that it's been nerfed, I cannot effectively use the PPCs. Maps like Terra Therma and Crimson Strait don't offer large enough fields of fire (Crimson has all those buildings that Mechs use as cover - nobody in their right mind will stand in the open and let me peg them). There's no way to effectively use PPCs in such instances now, and the end result is that I have a Mech that runs hot, deals low overall damage, and can't hit Mechs accurately or quickly (think snap shots). So, a dual Gauss Jager or 'Pult or Direwolf, etc. can rock around the corner, Gauss my TDR, and rock back safely before my PPCs even reach them. No counter against them.

What's really laughable is fighting LRM boats. They see my throw down on them with PPCs and just sidestep the shots, then shell me into the ground with LRMs. It's annoying.

Couple the JJ nerf with the PPC nerf, and my QKD-5K is ruined too. I can't even climb hills to snipe (not jump-sniping mind you - just climbing up to vantage points). I'm going to sell that 5K next time I log into the game.

My HBK-4P can no longer effectively mount PPCs. Neither can two of my BLRs (had to reconstruct one of them - not sure what to do with the other one).

My point to all this, is that the PPC nerf broke the weapon's usefulness. While the Gauss+PPC meta is concerning, it is simply a factor of the game. Why ruin the game for many Mech types and load-outs just to stop one Mech type and loadout? That' stupid.

PGI, bring back PPC speed and just implement a fix that uncouples PPCs and Gauss, similar to how you uncoupled the Quad Gauss Direwolf. That's the best fix. Otherwise, PPCs will largely be relegated to a scrap pile somewhere.

...And in the future, when the next meta arises, how about looking at the nature of the meta and how it might be countered (or even better, left alone) rather than just punishing everyone and everything at once? Remember, you can never be rid of meta, so why not make the game as least painful as possible, instead of nerfing everything ever few weeks. I'd rather deal with a meta I know than have half my Mechs ruined in some bumbling attempt to "fix" the meta.

[Wrathful-Khan]

has anyone tried.. not using PPCs?

[101011]

Nightmare1, on 02 September 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

-snip-

PPC's are fine. I am not the greatest player, but I have no difficulty hitting targets 6-700 meters away. Say you are shooting an ERPPC at max range, 800 meters. Traveling 950 mps, the projectile will hit roughly 0.84 seconds after you fire. The average human has a reaction time of about .25 seconds. That gives the enemy exactly 0.59 seconds to avoid your shot. Not even the best player in the world could avoid taking damage. The problem is not the speed, the problem is you.

[Grendel408]

When they first introduced the latest PPC nerf... I had to test it. Honestly, it's not that slow... if you compare it strictly by it's previous value to it's current... yes that is a rather steep adjustment. But it's not a terrible weapon to use by any means... too many people are just so used to relying on their either Pin-point High Alpha builds, or their High DPS builds that tuning a weapon to anything but what they are used to is like owning a nice v8 luxury/spots car, taking it into the shop for service and being given a 4cyl compact rental car. Got so used to what you had that you (the Community) might have failed to acknowledge maybe it was not very balanced overall to begin with?

[Nightmare1]

101011, on 02 September 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

PPC's are fine. I am not the greatest player, but I have no difficulty hitting targets 6-700 meters away. Say you are shooting an ERPPC at max range, 800 meters. Traveling 950 mps, the projectile will hit roughly 0.84 seconds after you fire. The average human has a reaction time of about .25 seconds. That gives the enemy exactly 0.59 seconds to avoid your shot. Not even the best player in the world could avoid taking damage. The problem is not the speed, the problem is you.

Meh, I'm a pretty good shot. Even so, I've had Assault Mechs sidestep my PPCs. When they can do that, the projectile is traveling too slowly. It doesn't take much to dodge a shot either - a simple torso twist combined with a step backwards can thwart PPC shots now. I know because I've done it to other pilots myself with my BLRs.

I would say that if you are hitting targets at that distance, you are good at getting into places where they cannot see you, perhaps in their flank? I am a front-line fighter - when I rock out to shoot, pilots see me. I'm not like a lot of those scouts who will zip around with ECM and hide in odd places to snipe (Ex: Spider on HPG wall).

To be honest, I've dropped with you in match before and have seen your skill level.

[101011]

Nightmare1, on 02 September 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Meh, I'm a pretty good shot. Even so, I've had Assault Mechs sidestep my PPCs. When they can do that, the projectile is traveling too slowly. It doesn't take much to dodge a shot either - a simple torso twist combined with a step backwards can thwart PPC shots now. I know because I've done it to other pilots myself with my BLRs.

I would say that if you are hitting targets at that distance, you are good at getting into places where they cannot see you, perhaps in their flank? I am a front-line fighter - when I rock out to shoot, pilots see me. I'm not like a lot of those scouts who will zip around with ECM and hide in odd places to snipe (Ex: Spider on HPG wall).

To be honest, I've dropped with you in match before and have seen your skill level.

Can they dodge poorly aimed shots? Yes. Can they dodge shots aimed at center of mass? Much less likely, and certainly not with enough regularity to relegate the PPC to the trash heap.

[Nightmare1]

101011, on 02 September 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Can they dodge poorly aimed shots? Yes. Can they dodge shots aimed at center of mass? Much less likely, and certainly not with enough regularity to relegate the PPC to the trash heap.

Like I said, I've seen it done and I've done it to other pilots. A CT shot can be dodged if you're good enough and quick enough.

On top of that, the slower projectile speed prohibits any snap shots. Previously, if the group moved through narrow confines like those found in River City or Crimson Strait, it was possible to defend yourself against faster Mechs by snapping PPC shots at them as they flitted back and forth from building to building. Now PPCs move too slow to effectively do this, making it difficult to adequately defend yourself against faster Mechs before they reach 90 meters. Yet, the heat generation and penalties remain the same, so, even if you brought back-up guns, you now might be too hot to effectively use those too. Basically, there are more outcomes of this nerf, rather than just accuracy penalty and Gauss decoupling upon which PGI is so focused.

Regardless of your thoughts on the state of PPCs, surely you must recognize that a velocity decrease of over forty percent at once is overzealous. Incremental changes could have been made effectively, but shocking the system by cutting the velocities so drastically is a knee-jerk reaction unsuited to sustainable game production and entertaining gameplay. On top of that, it is simply wrong to punish the greater number of pilots and Mechs for a meta that exists in only one basic scenario. Thus the public outcry for PPCs to be restored and a better fix found.

[101011]

So you want the PPC to be back to point and click, with no chance of dodging? I run PPC's too, and I do not feel punished. All they did was lower the speed to reasonable levels. Look at the meta. Every single combination included PPC's. You know why that is? Because PPC's were broken. When the Gauss Rifle was nerfed, everyone cried that it was a trash weapon, but guess what? With absolutely no changes, it is back on top.

[Thomas G Wolf]

What they should do is give the Clan ERPPC the right damage namly 15 points of damage and not 10 points, they really should read the TT rules a bit more.

[Josef Koba]

Maybe I'm just not sure what the purpose of the PPC/ERPPC is anymore. Is it a brawling weapon, or a long range weapon, or something mid range? It seems that its role has shifted over the years. I don't know what I'm supposed to use it for, which is why I suppose I largely didn't.

[RTDouglas]

I agree that PPC's have been nerfed way too much. Sometimes it seems players wont be happy in this game unless we all used big sticks on each other to keep things fair.

[Grendel408]

Josef Koba, on 02 September 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Maybe I'm just not sure what the purpose of the PPC/ERPPC is anymore. Is it a brawling weapon, or a long range weapon, or something mid range? It seems that its role has shifted over the years. I don't know what I'm supposed to use it for, which is why I suppose I largely didn't.

Originally it was your "smack'em hard" from afar weapon, to mid-range "have a little more" before you got within optimal range of your short and medium ranged weapons. Even in lore/canon they are widely used differently depending on the pilot's preference. But most authors in BT tended to use them in their proper context of long/medium range weapons. But it was mostly used on the Heavy and Assault Mechs, not so much from Lights and Mediums as those tended to rely more heavily on lasers, missiles, and smaller caliber autocannons.

[101011]

Grendel408, on 02 September 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

Originally it was your "smack'em hard" from afar weapon, to mid-range "have a little more" before you got within optimal range of your short and medium ranged weapons. Even in lore/canon they are widely used differently depending on the pilot's preference. But most authors in BT tended to use them in their proper context of long/medium range weapons. But it was mostly used on the Heavy and Assault Mechs, not so much from Lights and Mediums as those tended to rely more heavily on lasers, missiles, and smaller caliber autocannons.

I would disagree, the PPC was the light man's autocannon. It was far more common for the heavier 'Mechs to carry autocannons and the lighter ones to choose PPC's. As for the role of the PPC, it is pretty much exactly what you make of it. You want to brawl? You can do that, if you are cautious. You want to snipe? Hope you can lead your targets. It excels at mid-range, though, 400-600 meters.

[ShinVector]

No to EZ-Mode PPCs until PGI fixes Lasers HSR for people outside of NA.

[Idealsuspect]

Xevius Von Morrigan, on 01 September 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear enought.
AC/10..DpS 4.0 / HpS 1.2
PPC....DpS 2.5 / HpS 2.5
ERPPC..DpS 2.5 / HpS 3.75
so you need 3 PPC to have the same DpS of 2 AC/10 (2.5*3=7.5, 4*2=8)
3 PPC = 27 t
2 AC/10= 28 t
a LITTLE improvement in speed (+100 for example) would be advisable, or a much faster round but with a charge time (as Gauss Rifle).
You should consider PPC cannot be used as a short range weapon (minimum range)....
but to developers the last words, of course

DPS weapons isnt the only thing you have to think before build your mech ...

Max sustained DPS, like in smurfy mech, lab is more pertinent....


maybe you forgot ammo, and optimal range ( ERppc range = AC10 range now ? ) in your equation so i give you a F in mathematic ....

And you forgot how play MWO ... you never shoot all the game ( cauze you can't ) .. you hide, you show yourself then firing, most of time an alpha strike wait 3 PPC mean 30 damage point and 2 AC10 ?
then you hide or change position.

You deserve F- in fact.

If i am not clear enought tell me

Edited by Idealsuspect, 02 September 2014 - 07:16 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Indiandream, on 02 September 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

has anyone tried.. not using PPCs?

The point is to not remove PPCs from the game, which the speed nerf has done. It doesn't fix the Gauss Rifle problem and it creates much worse Ballistics plus PPC configurations so it is a total failure and does nothing. It promotes what it tried to block.

[Wrathful-Khan]

Ballistic + PPC has been around for centuries. Gauss is a another issue. What it does is take the FLD pinpoint crutch off of a lot of players and that's why you're not happy.

PPC - It's like an autocannon, only it sucks!