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The Victor Is Dead. Stop

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#21 Roland

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:00 AM

View PostSandpit, on 02 September 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

because they don't want to piss off their current target audience which is the "competitive" crowd and that's where the majority of jump snipers came from (well the really good ones that were actually good enough to "wreak havoc" anyhow

The thing is though, I would suspect that most of the competitive crowd would have no problem at all adapting to the removal of jumpsniping as an effective mechanic. Also, it's kind of moot, since PGI is indirectly implementing it anyway.

Who knows... but I think PGI is stuck in this kind of schizophrenic mode where they don't want to nerf jump sniping, but they DO want to nerf jump sniping... so they're doing it in a manner which is convoluted and indirect, so they can be left with some sort of plausible deniability... but it ends up being ridiculous.

#22 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:02 AM

View PostRoland, on 02 September 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

The thing is though, I would suspect that most of the competitive crowd would have no problem at all adapting to the removal of jumpsniping as an effective mechanic. Also, it's kind of moot, since PGI is indirectly implementing it anyway.

Who knows... but I think PGI is stuck in this kind of schizophrenic mode where they don't want to nerf jump sniping, but they DO want to nerf jump sniping... so they're doing it in a manner which is convoluted and indirect, so they can be left with some sort of plausible deniability... but it ends up being ridiculous.

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#23 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:25 AM

View Postskorpionet, on 02 September 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

I want to tell you a story, the Victor's Death.

In the past time Victor mechs model were know for their mobility in the battle field, true brawler mechs. A bad day a man, in the factory, underpowered their specs, no more brawlers in the fight.
Thanks to jumpjets Victor mechs, above all Dragon Slayer hero variant (true money for it), were know for their jump sniper ability. A bad day the same man made a malfunctioning lot of jumpjets, all Victor mechs never leave the ground.
Then a new technology arrives on the inner sphere, more powerful mechs, more powerful weapons. Victor mechs can't do nothing to defend their lands, no one at the factory knew how to fix, no one listened to the mechwarriors.
At last new dropships can contain only 3 assault mechs, why descend on the battlefield with twenty tons less in a coffin? The Victor is dead and you've killed you.


p.s.: excuse me for my poor English language.


I am with you on this for the most part anyway.

The JJ nerf pretty much killed all my favorite mechs and I didn't have a one of them configured for a Jump Sniper. All where mobile striker builds designed to use agility and max jump jets to strike and run.

So now my Heavy Metal is worthless to me. The only reason I bought it in the first place was because it could mount 5 JJs which, when paired with the max engine size gave it excellent jump capability. Never would have even touched it without this capability yet now I don't have this capability so I have a 6750 MC mech sitting worthless to me in my bay. Sure I can ditch the JJs but it's hard point selection sucks and without JJs an Atlas is just a much better option.

Same for the Dragon Slayer I bought. Got it because of its excellent agility and good jump capability. Well now it has neither. Sure I can run it without JJs and do fine with it, but that isn't the reason I spent 6000 MC on it. I spent 6000 MC because of its excellent agility and jump capability. Again zero desire to play the mech so it is wasting away in a bay.

My favorite IS mech, the Quickdraw, again wasting away. My build of 4 ML, 2 SRM6 and 1 SRM4 absolutely required having excellent jump capability to well be my favorite IS mech. At least I didn't pay cash for this one.

Cataphract 3D, again one of my favorites, never gets played. Why? Yep you guess it, JJs now suck so bad they don't make enough of a difference to actually be worth it.

So yeah, PGI did a bang up job of ruining about 60-70% of my favorite mechs with the JJ change and caused me to waste over 12,000 MC on mechs I would have in no way, shape, form or fashion, purchased if I had any clue JJs would be nerfed so hard.

And why would I ever think they would actually be nerfed this badly? I mean JJs had pretty much worked the same way that had always worked since I started playing back in closed beta. I mean when a game mechanic has been stable OVER 2 YEARS, why would I have any cause to believe they might nerf that mechanic into oblivion over night.

Really crappy decision on PGI's part if you ask me.

#24 Sandpit

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:46 AM

View PostRoland, on 02 September 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

The thing is though, I would suspect that most of the competitive crowd would have no problem at all adapting to the removal of jumpsniping as an effective mechanic. Also, it's kind of moot, since PGI is indirectly implementing it anyway.

Who knows... but I think PGI is stuck in this kind of schizophrenic mode where they don't want to nerf jump sniping, but they DO want to nerf jump sniping... so they're doing it in a manner which is convoluted and indirect, so they can be left with some sort of plausible deniability... but it ends up being ridiculous.

I'm just saying, if you look at the history of development, as PGI shifts its focus to a different demo, they shift the game design as well. That's one of the reasons why the production cycle and such are so chaotic.

#25 xengk

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 10:54 AM

View PostRoland, on 02 September 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

I'd choose to have the full shake, making Jumpsniping impossible, but still be able to jump.


I would prefer this too but the motion-sickness-mechwarriors will come out in swarms from the woodwork.

#26 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:06 AM

View Postxengk, on 02 September 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:


I would prefer this too but the motion-sickness-mechwarriors will come out in swarms from the woodwork.

all of whom,. coincidentally run poptarts...............

#27 ThisMachineKillsFascists

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:08 AM

View PostCharronn, on 02 September 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

I'll tell you a secret.I don't have jj's in my Dragon Slayer.
And..............it does just fine.

IKR.

This is the 3rd Victor is Dead /useless/Pgi broke the victor thread within 2 days.

You wont believe it but they even say an atlas maneuvers better than a victor xD. They say they unequiped the victors and dont touch it anymore because its ultra crap ;(

All bla bla to try to influence pgi for a roll back so these ppl can hopp hopp pew pew again with their mechs.


Luckyly Paul is a stubborn person. He hardly does reverse stuff he changed.


Thx Paul - keep the good work up

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 02 September 2014 - 11:09 AM.


#28 Mcgral18

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:12 AM

View PostThisMachineKillsFascists, on 02 September 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

IKR.

This is the 3rd Victor is Dead /useless/Pgi broke the victor thread within 2 days.

You wont believe it but they even say an atlas maneuvers better than a victor xD. They say they unequiped the victors and dont touch it anymore because its ultra crap ;(

All bla bla to try to influence pgi for a roll back so these ppl can hopp hopp pew pew again with their mechs.


Luckyly Paul is a stubborn person. He hardly does reverse stuff he changed.


Thx Paul - keep the good work up

:rolleyes:
Please tell us why an 80 ton mech should turn like a 100 ton mech.

Is it the hover jets? The low mounted hardpoints? The large arms which carry nearly all the firepower?

#29 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:17 AM

My Dragon Slayer, mixed loadout, good at any range.

#30 ThisMachineKillsFascists

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:21 AM

View Postcdlord, on 02 September 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

My Dragon Slayer, mixed loadout, good at any range.

Unvalid loudout if you cant hopp hopp pew pew with it over long range and behind cover . Victor is not allowed to be played regulary as a brawler or a mixed loudout.

Sarcasm Mode disabled

#31 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:24 AM

View PostThisMachineKillsFascists, on 02 September 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Unvalid loudout if you cant hopp hopp pew pew with it over long range and behind cover . Victor is not allowed to be played regulary as a brawler or a mixed loudout.

Sarcasm Mode disabled

OH SH*T! MY MISTAKE!!!
/return sarcasm. :)

#32 Koniving

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:28 AM

View Postcdlord, on 02 September 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Since the nerf was due to the meta-builds wrecking havoc on everything, you all did this to yourselves. My Dragon Slayer plays just fine if you don't try to meta it.


View PostCharronn, on 02 September 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

I'll tell you a secret.I don't have jj's in my Dragon Slayer.
And..............it does just fine.

Before the jump jet nerfs I took them out of my Victors and never actually had a problem.

Of course I sport the following weapons: 2 to 3 streaks. 2 to 3 medium lasers. 1 LBX AND any of the following: 1 AC/5 or 1 to 2 AC/2s or 1 AC/2 and 1 MG.

And I do fantastic with them.

This isn't to say that they weren't overnerfed compared to other mechs as after elites they feel 'just right'... before elites you probably don't want to get caught in one.

A zero% turning nerf or nerf of 0% stationary, 0% slow, 5% medium and 10% fast (as opposed to 20% all around) would be good.
Far as torso twisting, a 5 to 10% twisting speed nerf makes a lot more sense over the current 20%. 5% twisting speed nerf would have it twist like a proper 85 ton mech (Warhawk without twist-buffing torso sections) which is faster than the nerfed Battlemaster twists and slower than the buffed Stalker twists.

(In the case of the Victors that have lower arm actuators, a 0% nerf/buff to torso twist speed would also give people good reason to use the ones that can't mount AC/20s / twin UAC/5s.

This way it leaves some praise for the Awesome without being overnerfed.

Edited by Koniving, 02 September 2014 - 11:51 AM.


#33 Koniving

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:05 PM

View PostRoland, on 02 September 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

PGI, for reasons unknown, has decided that it's somehow bad for them to admit that they want to nerf jumpsniping... and yet, that is very clearly their desired goal.


I think the reasons are known.

View PostSandpit, on 02 September 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

because they don't want to piss off their current target audience which is the "competitive" crowd and that's where the majority of jump snipers came from (well the really good ones that were actually good enough to "wreak havoc" anyhow


This guy has it right on the money and beat me to it.

As an example... Zhizhu had a competitive element called Jade Dragon.

Its lead member who I won't name, actually had people buying the mechs for MC to resell for lots of easy Cbills to get cushioning room against repair and rearm so they could run the most overpowered crap in spite of repair and rearm.

R&R disappeared, and a lot of the MC income MWO had disappeared with it. Later, they kept warping numbers which made it really difficult to min/max the builds (they had an update every week for a short while with stat changes every time) and finally he rage quit MWO shortly after open beta.

The entire Jade Dragon element collapsed too, and all that MC income stopped as a result. These guys were buying Atlases for MC and reselling them for cbills to try and get the biggest bang for their buck. That's a lot of money flowing around just because. Lost because of rapid changes to things.

They weren't the only ones to do it either.

Soon after, PGI started getting extremely slow to make changes.... and even then they were slight changes. But that pisses the people who suffer at the hands of said competitive players who just want to have fun.

So now PGI is being very slow to make changes to not piss off the competitive players but are using a 500 ton mallet when they do finally get around to it to make the casuals happy...

In the end...no one's happy now.

Edited by Koniving, 02 September 2014 - 12:12 PM.


#34 Ngamok

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:38 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 02 September 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

define just fine? The nerfs to the meta, fine. My ability to out turn an Atlas had NOTHING to do with Poptarts, and got to tell ya..... the flood of VTRs on the field sfo the last year, 99% of them weren't Brawlers. The VTR is a mediocre chassis now, at best.


It's not the fault of the Victor that 99% of them weren't brawlers. It's the fault of the players wanting to play the Victor as certain way because it was deemed the best way to play them. I am sure I am not alone but my 9K and 9S didn't have PPCs or AC/5s only the DS did because why not have one set up with that play style and the other 2 something different?

#35 Sandpit

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:48 PM

View PostKoniving, on 02 September 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:


I think the reasons are known.



This guy has it right on the money and beat me to it.

As an example... Zhizhu had a competitive element called Jade Dragon.

Its lead member who I won't name, actually had people buying the mechs for MC to resell for lots of easy Cbills to get cushioning room against repair and rearm so they could run the most overpowered crap in spite of repair and rearm.

R&R disappeared, and a lot of the MC income MWO had disappeared with it. Later, they kept warping numbers which made it really difficult to min/max the builds (they had an update every week for a short while with stat changes every time) and finally he rage quit MWO shortly after open beta.

The entire Jade Dragon element collapsed too, and all that MC income stopped as a result. These guys were buying Atlases for MC and reselling them for cbills to try and get the biggest bang for their buck. That's a lot of money flowing around just because. Lost because of rapid changes to things.

They weren't the only ones to do it either.

Soon after, PGI started getting extremely slow to make changes.... and even then they were slight changes. But that pisses the people who suffer at the hands of said competitive players who just want to have fun.

So now PGI is being very slow to make changes to not piss off the competitive players but are using a 500 ton mallet when they do finally get around to it to make the casuals happy...

In the end...no one's happy now.

Interestingly enough, that's when PGi said "islands" "positions at the time" and made it quite clear that they were targeting a new demographic of gamers.

Now we're back to "we listened to a few competitive players". PGI has no consistency because of this and that's why balance, changes, etc. are all over the map. They act like they're "sticking to their guns" but the truth of the matter is they balance the game around whatever their current "target audience" is.

#36 Roland

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:36 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 02 September 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

all of whom,. coincidentally run poptarts...............

And hilariously, they no longer get motion sickness!

I guess only the decent part of the jump shake was what was making them sick, and the ascent part has no effect.

Or they were totally full of sheet.

#37 Sandpit

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:41 PM

View PostRoland, on 02 September 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:


Or they were totally full of sheet.

this would be most of them if i had to guess. Not all, but most

#38 Roland

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:45 PM

View PostSandpit, on 02 September 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

this would be most of them if i had to guess. Not all, but most

Is think it's pretty much all of them, except any of them who never jump currently, since it would be giving them motion sickness.

#39 Sandpit

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:49 PM

View PostRoland, on 02 September 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

Is think it's pretty much all of them, except any of them who never jump currently, since it would be giving them motion sickness.

I have no doubts that some legitimately have this issue but it's just like a conversation I had with a professor today about a student who was having trouble getting her homework in on time.

In one semester she "killed" 5 grandmas
all belonging to the same student
within 4 months

I'm sure it's a pretty safe bet that most of the ones claiming "motion sickness" are just like the student who lost 5 gmas.

#40 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:50 PM

View Postcdlord, on 02 September 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Since the nerf was due to the meta-builds wrecking havoc on everything, you all did this to yourselves. My Dragon Slayer plays just fine if you don't try to meta it.

THIS

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 02 September 2014 - 02:53 PM.






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