57 replies to this topic

[Kmieciu]

Some people like P2W. They cry and shout when their P2W mechs get nerfed, but the very second PGI announces the new Clan reinforcements pack, they'll be ordering that ECM Hellbrinder like there's no tomorrow.

And then PGI will nerf ECM.

Remeber - I called it first.

Edited by Kmieciu, 15 September 2014 - 05:28 AM.

[Shell Game]

You think the clan mechs are bad? Try playing some of the new hero mechs... The last 3 hero mechs are complete jokes. All are extremely weak models. My wallet is now closed until PGI introduces some next generation inner sphere mechs capable of competing with Clan models. Sadly, the pinnacle of this game was the day the Clan collection reached the battlefield. The lack of conceptual direction of this game has been downhill ever since.

Edited by EpicWarlord, 15 September 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[Shell Game]

Black240, on 05 September 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

The clan nerfs have caused clan mechs to lose value. Is PGI going to refund a percentage of the price paid for clan mechs because of the reduction in mech value? Clan weapons had advantages but clan mechs had limited adjustability as far as engines, armor, structure, and removing jump jets. Are clan mechs going to have more freedom of adjustment in compensation for the heat and distance nerfs?

I am interested in a PGI response.

You are experiencing buyer's remorse. You aren't getting what you thought you were paying for. Still, if you bought the $240 package which was $10 a mech you didn't get that bad of a deal compared to some of those new hero mechs which cost much more.

[Shell Game]

arghmace, on 13 September 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

Clan mechs are still better than IS mechs. If anybody should get a refund it's the Founders and those who bought the Phoenix package.

Founders and Phoenix mechs are more like collectible mechs now. They are nice to have for nostalgia sake alone. They had their time when they walked around as the giants on the battlefield but their time in this game has passed. To claim these should still be viable is completely ridiculous.

[Theallmightyevil]

I'm currently trying to master the Nova and since the weapon nerf I find it almost unbearable to launch the Prime...

...wait...

I didn't even notice any changes until I saw the rants in team chat.

Seriously is it really that bad for some of you?

Also congrats to those who learned not to spend money on a free to play game.
Granted, additional mech bays are tempting every now and then but since PGI started the challenges this issue became a minor one too.

The only thing I couldn't resist buying was the Sarah Jenner.

[Summon3r]

lol the PGI fanboi's are to funny....

the extreme amount of nerfage to the clan weps is mostly unwarranted, fix the real issue. clan mechs weps are supposed to be OP, instead of nerfing have 2 clan stars vs 3 IS lances end of story.

btw id swap my clan ac's for IS ones any day.

[Ultimatum Ar]

I suggest a way to balance CLAN and IS Mechs and maintain somehow the plot of MechWarrior.
Clan Mech and Weapons should be much more powerful than IS but IS faction should have numbers in their favor.
What I think:
1-Unnerf Clan mechs (as much as possible)
2-Machmaker should arrange only IS vs IS, Clan vs Clan, or IS vs Clan (no mixed teams)
In IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan there should be no change at all.
But In IS vs Clan, IS should have numbers in their favor, my suggestion:
First two IS mechs that die should respawn as a fast IS light or medium (fixed light/medium with medium lasers or a trial light/medium) the respawn should be at the begining of the map, and as they are fast mechs they could rejoin the battle as quick as possible.
For premade teams:
There should be 4 IS trials and 4 Clan trials so when launching premade lances if one member have no Clan/IS mech, there is always a trial to choose.
Well that’s my humble opinion.
Excuse my bad English.
Thanks.

[arghmace]

EpicWarlord, on 15 September 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

Founders and Phoenix mechs are more like collectible mechs now. They are nice to have for nostalgia sake alone. They had their time when they walked around as the giants on the battlefield but their time in this game has passed. To claim these should still be viable is completely ridiculous.

Oh, I see you are a friend of the power curve. Well, I disagree. I think power curve and grinding is the cancer or modern games. Things used to be so much better in the 90's. The better player would win - not the one who could spend hours and hours everyday just to grind the ever improving equipment. Kids nowadays think it's skill to have a better mech than the opponent. BS. That's just a matter of how much time and/or money you are fooled to spend. Skill is skill.

[Eaerie]

they have already stated that they are not going to make IS use more mechs to be competitive, so get over that point and try and help figure out a way to make it balanced without more IS mechs on a team.


for the people that want to have CW (IS vs. Clan) IS needs to be competitive or few if any people would play IS. if no one plays IS then you get no CW cause everyone would be playing clan mechs and all this complaining and whining over the last 2 years demanding CW is just a waste and indicates that you have no idea really what you want except the biggest most powerful mech on the field.

Edited by Eaerie, 15 September 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[Summon3r]

Eaerie, on 15 September 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

they have already stated that they are not going to make IS use more mechs to be competitive, so get over that point and try and help figure out a way to make it balanced without more IS mechs on a team.


for the people that want to have CW (IS vs. Clan) IS needs to be competitive or few if any people would play IS. if no one plays IS then you get no CW cause everyone would be playing clan mechs and all this complaining and whining over the last 2 years demanding CW is just a waste and indicates that you have no idea really what you want except the biggest most powerful mech on the field.

its funny how this balance word keeps coming up, NOTHING clan vs IS in this timeline is balanced apart from the raw #'s IS can field vs clan..... if you want balance or PGI wants balance they picked a ridiculous year for the game to be set in. fast forward to when the IS started to produce there own omni-mechs

[Eaerie]

I understand the timelines and how the IS gets crushed according to lore at this time, but this isnt a book, or a story. Balance is a big issue when you are in the process of implementing CW. if clan mechs are all superior you will end up with no viable CW matches, clans take over the galaxy, end game its over, then your precious timeline gets thrown out cause IS couldnt mount any defense due to NONE of the players wanting to play IS mechs. Something has to give someplace and devs have decided that making mech competitive is the way to go.

[Jorgandr]

And guess what, they're not finished nerfing clans yet! Next up - Clan XL = IS XL. One side torso loss and you are dead.

[Jam the Bam]

Guys, they put clans versus Is again the other night, according to Russ the clan with rate was only 74% this time. ONLY 74%.

The MASSIVE nerfs dropped the win rate down from 90%. They are still OP, they are due more nerfs.

Aside from that, did you buy something that you expected to be OP? If the answer is yes you are an idiot, if no then its getting nerfed because it is.

[Jorgandr]

Jammerben87, on 17 September 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

Guys, they put clans versus Is again the other night, according to Russ the clan with rate was only 74% this time. ONLY 74%.

The MASSIVE nerfs dropped the win rate down from 90%. They are still OP, they are due more nerfs.

Aside from that, did you buy something that you expected to be OP? If the answer is yes you are an idiot, if no then its getting nerfed because it is.

Take a statistics course.

There are so many variables impacting that 74% win ratio that it has become meaningless. If they gave EVERYONE playing the game temporary, free, fully kitted out and fully elited Inner sphere AND Clan mechs, then it would at least come close to meaningful data by removing the skill level variable from the equation (gives newbies the ability to pilot equivalent machines to the vets, thus populating both sides with equal skill levels. They would HAVE to do both IS and Clan in order to give newbies a reason to still choose IS mechs). They still have the variable of how having every mech (sorry direwolf) on your team move at a similar speed affects unity in a PUG, but at least skill and veterancy is no longer a factor.

As it stands, the large majority of Clan mech pilots (especially since many of them are not available for c-bills yet) are made up of MWO veterans who have already elited all their mechs and purchased any modules they want (I know I have).

You simply cannot get meaningful data from a test like this.
Period.

The fact that they continue to do these tests while touting them as significant data, and even basing their balancing choices on them forces me to wonder if any of them even made it through college.

If they nerf clan mechs to the point where a test like this becomes 50/50, all it will mean is a team of mostly scrubs in IS mechs can beat a team of mostly vets in Clan mechs 50% of the time. That would be ridiculous. Unfortunately this does seem to be their goal.

Edit:
Here is a thought experiment for you:
Make a challenge on the internet to pit Mac users vs Linux users (1v1 each time) in a race to see who can successfully change the settings on their wireless router first. Guarantee linux users win a large majority of the time. Does this mean Linux makes changing router settings easier? NO. It means Linux users tend to be more computer savvy than Mac users.

The logic fail in these tests is seriously hurting my brain.

Edited by Jorgandr, 17 September 2014 - 07:53 AM.

[Jam the Bam]

Jorgandr, on 17 September 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

Take a statistics course.

There are so many variables impacting that 74% win ratio that it has become meaningless. If they gave EVERYONE playing the game temporary, free, fully kitted out and fully elited Inner sphere AND Clan mechs, then it would at least come close to meaningful data by removing the skill level variable from the equation (gives newbies the ability to pilot equivalent machines to the vets, thus populating both sides with equal skill levels. They would HAVE to do both IS and Clan in order to give newbies a reason to still choose IS mechs). They still have the variable of how having every mech (sorry direwolf) on your team move at a similar speed affects unity in a PUG, but at least skill and veterancy is no longer a factor.

As it stands, the large majority of Clan mech pilots (especially since many of them are not available for c-bills yet) are made up of MWO veterans who have already elited all their mechs and purchased any modules they want (I know I have).

You simply cannot get meaningful data from a test like this.
Period.

The fact that they continue to do these tests while touting them as significant data, and even basing their balancing choices on them forces me to wonder if any of them even made it through college.

If they nerf clan mechs to the point where a test like this becomes 50/50, all it will mean is a team of mostly scrubs in IS mechs can beat a team of mostly vets in Clan mechs 50% of the time. That would be ridiculous. Unfortunately this does seem to be their goal.

Edit:
Here is a thought experiment for you:
Make a challenge on the internet to pit Mac users vs Linux users (1v1 each time) in a race to see who can successfully change the settings on their wireless router first. Guarantee linux users win a large majority of the time. Does this mean Linux makes changing router settings easier? NO. It means Linux users tend to be more computer savvy than Mac users.

The logic fail in these tests is seriously hurting my brain.

Yes I understand that, those factors could produce small differences, but a 90% win-rate in the previous test? And that's ALL down to the fact that clan pilots are better? How about the simple fact that every vaguely serious player considers the timberwolf to be the best mech in the game right now? Also you seem to be forgetting ELO, newbies should not be playing against fully kitted out and experienced clan pilots. And you are assuming that there are no decent IS (which combined with ELO match making should mean equalish skill levels. Thats a fair number of baseless assumptions you are making to rubbish the views of the people (PGI) who hold a lot more info about it than you (ELO numbers etc,).

Edited by Jammerben87, 22 September 2014 - 01:48 AM.

[Lily from animove]

I don't see anything at the clanpage telling you which firepower you are exactly going to "buy". If you bought clans sololy for the reason of having stronger mechs then you probably had the wrong reasons to buy them.

and we aren't even done, SC and TW will still get soem nerfs, they are currently unchallanged kings in their classes and no quirks ever will make other mechs truly competitive to them.

Edited by Lily from animove, 22 September 2014 - 03:04 AM.

[Lily from animove]

sneeking, on 22 September 2014 - 03:13 AM, said:

they should of left the clans as per what you payed for and rolled back the nerfs from when they did the same to inner sphere investors.

is rollbacks would of made far better clan nerfs than actual clan nerfs and as a bonus clan customers and is customers all would of had less to complain about.

clan is suposed to be scarey you should fear facing them down but is advantages ( advantages we have lost due to balance measures implemented against our own kind before invasion ) have been lost. now the clan intimidation factor is to be lost and I think they are taking the wrong aproch to game balance.

Sc and TW would still be OP, but pobably starting over from that point may be also good, Tweak ranges down a bit because Clannes ranges were really a bit OP. Then start to work on balance by some quirks.

Would be one of many possibilities to balance stuff.
Or maybe they should'nt have nerfed clanners ranges and instead buffed IS ranges a bit?

Edited by Lily from animove, 22 September 2014 - 03:24 AM.

[Jorgandr]

Jammerben87, on 22 September 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

Yes I understand that, those factors could produce small differences, but a 90% win-rate in the previous test? And that's ALL down to the fact that clan pilots are better? How about the simple fact that every vaguely serious player considers the timberwolf to be the best mech in the game right now? Also you seem to be forgetting ELO, newbies should not be playing against fully kitted out and experienced clan pilots. And you are assuming that there are no decent IS (which combined with ELO match making should mean equalish skill levels. Thats a fair number of baseless assumptions you are making to rubbish the views of the people (PGI) who hold a lot more info about it than you (ELO numbers etc,).

Not how ELO works. You can remove ELO from your equation completely in a situation where Clan vs IS is forced. ELO "Attempts" to even things out based on who is in the queue, and some assumptions are made (i.e. that there will be enough variety of players in the queue that an even matching is possible). If there are zero new players in the queue for one side "Clan" and a few for the other side "IS" then one side will have newbies, the other will not. In fact, if the insane happened and every Clan player jumped into their DW... guess what, you would have a 4/4/4/4 IS team vs all Direwolves.

There were SEVERAL matches during this "test" that did not include any trial mechs (No lights even, and just a couple stormcrows. the rest heavies/assaults) on our side, and 2 or three trials on the IS side and a near even mix fitting the 4/4/4/4 model. Even? I think not. The fact that the matchmaking system was forced to completely throw out the weight class model just to make matches with all Clan one side and all IS the other should show you something.

Or perhaps you honestly believe that the newer players just sit out "tests" like this?

It is a moot point anyway. The next nerf, as per Russ is to make clan XL's almost the same as IS XL's. This will effectively make almost every clan mech a death-trap.

Edited by Jorgandr, 22 September 2014 - 04:30 AM.

[Magna Canus]

I have to agree with those above that make sense with the voice of experience and common sense.

Founders had validated reasons to QQ; They believed a sales pitch and invested money with big expectations. Nobody had any tangible experience with PGI at the time and everybody was starved for a new BT generation to arrive.

Phoenix pack owners had had a chance to be skeptical and wary based on PGI's track record so far. It was a good deal and may at the time still had some level of faith that the game was either on track or would improve.

By the time the Clan packs came out QQ was at an all time high. Many die-hards were on their way out the door or had already left. PGI was changing things on a regular basis and anybody who read the forums at all knew that this was the "PGI Norm". Changes to both weapons and mechs were comming in all the time and anybody with any sense knew that what was in their mechbay today could be a totally new creature tomorrow.

What made me wary of the clan pack was the lack of detailed info on the weapons systems, the equipment, and the omnipods in general. Sure, I knew what a Timberwolf was in TT and lore, but what would PGI make of it? I did not have enough faith in the fairy-tale to spend hard cash on bits & bites and decided to wait and try clan mechs when they came out for C-bills. Everybody that has followed MWO for a half a year or more, let alone those of us that have seen CB & OB come and go, knew that MWO was an eternal WIP and that the only things you REALLY know will stay they way they are when you get them are mech bays and premium time.

The writing was on the wall the entire time so any QQ that follows is unjustified.

That being said, when it came time for me to get a few clan mechs for C-bills (Kit fox, Nova) and play around with others on the test server (Timberwolf, Direwolf) I quickly realized one thing; the amount of weaponry I could pack onto these things was ridiculous and that wrecking face in them was a lot easier than with my IS mechs. Really, if I could fit 4xCUAC10 on my Atlas then it would be hell, but it only really fits on the Direwolf. I can't even get 4 IS AC10's on an atlas. Doubble tap for 80 damage, yes, thank you. Oh and the Timberwolf, 89 kph with 4 ERML and 4 CSARM6? Well, you can say pfffft to any other IS mech with that. Cataphracts, Jagers? Lunch time. Hell, even with the nova running hotter after the nerf than before, 6xCERML still wrecks face at near the same range as IS LL's. Watch your heat a bit and use a cool shot now and again, no problem. I honestly doubt anybody would be surprised or sympathise with someone that complains that his 6LL IS mech is "too hot".

QQ rights denied dude, no money back for you. Suck it up as a lesson learned and move on.

[Jam the Bam]

Jorgandr, on 22 September 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

Not how ELO works. You can remove ELO from your equation completely in a situation where Clan vs IS is forced. ELO "Attempts" to even things out based on who is in the queue, and some assumptions are made (i.e. that there will be enough variety of players in the queue that an even matching is possible). If there are zero new players in the queue for one side "Clan" and a few for the other side "IS" then one side will have newbies, the other will not.

There were SEVERAL matches during this "test" that did not include any trial mechs (No lights even, and just a couple stormcrows. the rest heavies/assaults) on our side, and 2 or three trials on the IS side and a near even mix fitting the 4/4/4/4 model. Even? I think not. The fact that the matchmaking system was forced to completely throw out the weight class model just to make matches with all Clan one side and all IS the other should show you something.

Or perhaps you honestly believe that the newer players just sit out "tests" like this?

It is a moot point anyway. The next nerf, as per Russ is to make clan XL's almost the same as IS XL's. This will effectively make almost every clan mech a death-trap.

Again neither of us have all the information, I trust PGI enough that they will be able to identify what is a fair match and what is not based on the ELO numbers of the players on either side, which is information they have access to. You say there were several matches with trial mechs, I agree those are not valid comparisons, but PGI has the tools to ignore those set up when coming to their conclusions.

Either way we will have to see what happens, though the last plan I heard was not to make the clan X:'s function in the same way as IS (ie instant death on loss of side torso) but to have some form of heat and speed penalty which will still leave them functioning and able to fire. The XL's were a major advantage in that respect so I agree something needs to happen to balance them out like that before CW is implemented (if it ever is).