57 replies to this topic

[Magna Canus]

sneeking, on 22 September 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

how do you think a 8ml fs9k would do against a nova without ghost heat ? the fs9 is faster with more articulation and shorter burn for its damage ouput as well as been cooler.

Been there, done that. The FS9 with 8 ML is not going to win an alpha duel with the nova:

Heatsinks: FS9 (13), NVA (20)
Heat capacity: FS9 (57.84), NVA (69.60)
Alpha heat generation: FS9 (32), NVA (36)
Alpha damage: FS9 (40), NVA (42)

The FS9 can fire off 2 alpha's before overheating and shutting down. Due to the increased heat dissipation of the 7 additional DHS the NVA is near max heat after 2 alpha's, but still operational, at which time he switches over to his 4MGs and finishes the job.

The FS9's hard points are in both torso and arm slots making it more difficult to place your damage in one location whereby the NVA has all of the lasers in very mobile arm mounts.

Even ignoring the ghost heat penalty of 7,2 on the FS9's alpha (not included in the numbers above) 2 shots will still shut it down.

So in order to make use of the FS9's mobility it has to stagger fire, making 8 ML inefficient. Compound this with the decreased cool down rate makes this even more of an issue. The NVA's ability to use JJ's to enhance its turn rate and the fact that the weapons are mounted in the arms reduces the FSp's mobility advantage greatly. The armor advantage the NVA has more than levels the playing field.

In the end, 2 players of equal skill, 1 in a FS9 with 8ML and 1 in a NVA with 6ERML+4MG, the NVA will win the majority if not each duel.

[Jorgandr]

Jammerben87, on 22 September 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

Again neither of us have all the information, I trust PGI enough that they will be able to identify what is a fair match and what is not based on the ELO numbers of the players on either side, which is information they have access to. You say there were several matches with trial mechs, I agree those are not valid comparisons, but PGI has the tools to ignore those set up when coming to their conclusions.

Either way we will have to see what happens, though the last plan I heard was not to make the clan X:'s function in the same way as IS (ie instant death on loss of side torso) but to have some form of heat and speed penalty which will still leave them functioning and able to fire. The XL's were a major advantage in that respect so I agree something needs to happen to balance them out like that before CW is implemented (if it ever is).

Blind faith. Ok....

They said that the total Win/Loss ratio for the test was 74% in favor of clan. They did NOT say that it was excluding uneven matches.

sneeking, on 22 September 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

I wouldn't alpha it and it would spend more time shut down than me. free clanner windshield up for grabs lol.

I group left and right and also chain left and right I dont alpha, the two ct ml only fire when needed, the closest I get to an alpha is a three button combo.

cockpit glass on a shutdown lasts 1.5 seconds or so.

Nova legs are ridiculously easy to hit. Don't need to wait for a shutdown. He's legged before that happens anyway.

Edited by Jorgandr, 22 September 2014 - 04:52 AM.

[Rattler85]

I was lured into making my first MC purchase by the Jester and then the clan pack. I bought some more MC on one more occasion.

I was really unhappy when the nerfed the clan weapons. Limiting the number of clan mechs in a match would have gone over better with me.

[Jorgandr]

sneeking, on 22 September 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

most of them iv killed has been during shutdown, they shut down repeatedly.

Don't base tactics on the assumption that you will be facing a newbie

[Koniving]

Josef Koba, on 05 September 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

You're not going to get a response. But I was thinking about this earlier. Perhaps I was in the minority, but I came away from the clan pack release impressed with the balance they achieved (I do remember many saying the same). Surprisingly so. The clan had certain advantages in some areas and disadvantages in others.

I had the same experience here. The only issue was beyond canon ranges for ER Medium, ER Large lasers and the higher than canon damages for ER Large and LPL weapons.

But, the IS was disadvantaged in a crucial area.
Their medium and small class lasers. They had additional heat. The Clans had canon heat on theirs, which was only 1 heat more than each similar IS weapon.

The proper canon is that Clan ER Smalls are 1 heat more, Clan ER mediums are 2 heat more, and all pulses are identical in heat to the IS versions.
What PGI did was add 1 heat to each medium and small class Clan weapon.
What would have made sense was to remove the IS nerf by reducing the heat of each medium and small class IS weapon.

But instead of denerfing the IS in the name of balance, they nerfed the Clans.

The range nerfs were necessary, bringing Clans back to canon values in short/medium/long weapon ranges.

The heat nerfs to small and medium class lasers were not. Instead, the IS nerfs on those weapons should have been lifted.

All they did by nerfing Clan medium and small laser weaponry is render anything lighter than 55 tons pretty much worthless unless using missiles or ballistics.

A fix the IS side of laser weaponry, reducing their heat back to canon values... would have increased the value of light and medium IS mechs without depreciating Clan mechs.

Intelligent balancing... I wish we could have it.

Edited by Koniving, 22 September 2014 - 07:02 AM.

[J0anna]

Magnakanus, on 22 September 2014 - 04:37 AM, said:

Been there, done that. The FS9 with 8 ML is not going to win an alpha duel with the nova:

Heatsinks: FS9 (13), NVA (20)
Heat capacity: FS9 (57.84), NVA (69.60)
Alpha heat generation: FS9 (32), NVA (36)
Alpha damage: FS9 (40), NVA (42)

The FS9 can fire off 2 alpha's before overheating and shutting down. Due to the increased heat dissipation of the 7 additional DHS the NVA is near max heat after 2 alpha's, but still operational, at which time he switches over to his 4MGs and finishes the job.

The FS9's hard points are in both torso and arm slots making it more difficult to place your damage in one location whereby the NVA has all of the lasers in very mobile arm mounts.

Even ignoring the ghost heat penalty of 7,2 on the FS9's alpha (not included in the numbers above) 2 shots will still shut it down.

So in order to make use of the FS9's mobility it has to stagger fire, making 8 ML inefficient. Compound this with the decreased cool down rate makes this even more of an issue. The NVA's ability to use JJ's to enhance its turn rate and the fact that the weapons are mounted in the arms reduces the FSp's mobility advantage greatly. The armor advantage the NVA has more than levels the playing field.

In the end, 2 players of equal skill, 1 in a FS9 with 8ML and 1 in a NVA with 6ERML+4MG, the NVA will win the majority if not each duel.

The Nova SHOULD win this engagement the majority of times. While lights should have an advantage against assaults, using their speed to cause misses and pecking away (the game does this well). Lights should be in mortal fear of mediums (who are nearly as agile and pack more weapons and armor on average). Sadly, the game has fallen down here in the past, but a medium setup to kill lights should have no problems with them 1 v 1.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Koniving, on 22 September 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

I had the same experience here. The only issue was beyond canon ranges for ER Medium, ER Large lasers and the higher than canon damages for ER Large and LPL weapons.

But, the IS was disadvantaged in a crucial area.
Their medium and small class lasers. They had additional heat. The Clans had canon heat on theirs, which was only 1 heat more than each similar IS weapon.

The proper canon is that Clans are 2 heat more than each IS weapon.
What PGI did was add 1 heat to each medium and small class Clan weapon.
What would have made sense was to remove the IS nerf by reducing the heat of each medium and small class IS weapon.

But instead of denerfing the IS in the name of balance, they nerfed the Clans.

The range nerfs were necessary, bringing Clans back to canon values in short/medium/long weapon ranges.

The heat nerfs to small and medium class lasers were not. Instead, the IS nerfs on those weapons should have been lifted.

All they did by nerfing Clan medium and small laser weaponry is render anything lighter than 55 tons pretty much worthless unless using missiles or ballistics.

A fix the IS side of laser weaponry, reducing their heat back to canon values... would have increased the value of light and medium IS mechs without depreciating Clan mechs.

Intelligent balancing... I wish we could have it.

1000 times this

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 22 September 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

A fix the IS side of laser weaponry, reducing their heat back to canon values... would have increased the value of light and medium IS mechs without depreciating Clan mechs.

Intelligent balancing... I wish we could have it.

Oh now we get into a place where things become ugly.
How to say it that somebody but me understand what i want to say:

You know about BattleValue? You know how the BattleValue for weapons is calculated?
http://www.heavymeta...com/bv_calc.htm
See:
Although the IS MLAS deals 60% damage of the Large Laser - at 20% weight - considering only the "standard" values - it isn't that powerful.
For example at range of 150m it deal only 50% - decreasing. The Large Laser has better range profile - resulting in better hit propabilitys at medium range - and of course TT weapons don't deal all the same damage in the same region. So the 40% more damage for the Large Laser means that one hit out of 4% may cause a critical hit on a Commando (with a chance of utterly destruction of 4% from one hit) - but you will need multiple Medium Lasers to do this.

So the increased heat for the MLAS in the first place - is only a cheap fix to balance the ISMLAS vs the ISLarge Laser.
Given this internal knowlege - the beam duration of the large laser should be shorter AND more damage should be dealt.
or you increase the number of hits necessary - be decreasing damage and beam duration drastically for the MLAS while increasing the cool down rate.

So - we have already a balance flaw considering the Laser Weapons. Because PGI did decide to ignore range brackets and damage distribution in the first place.

What does this mean for the Clan ER-M-Laser? Same range as the IS Large Laser almost same range, less heat lower weight - this weapon should never ever existed. PGI - should have found there own values. (Increased Beam Duration and hopefully soon decreased Cool Down Rating - could be one - decreasing of damage and usage of heat scale other options)

But yeah you are right - when you said - that it wasn't a smart move to increase the heat for ER-M-Laser

[tuffy963]

Summon3r, on 15 September 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

...
the extreme amount of nerfage to the clan weps is mostly unwarranted, fix the real issue. clan mechs weps are supposed to be OP, instead of nerfing have 2 clan stars vs 3 IS lances end of story.
....

Actually, PGI has been clear from the beginning that Clan superiority would not survive in MWO's interpretation/implementation as PGI believes (Russ said as much several times) they could create a unique experience using Clan tech WITHOUT creating lopsided engagements (12 vs. 10, etc). If you are still claiming that Clans are "supposed" to be more powerful, then you just are not paying attention (or accepting) PGI's interpretation of Clan tech in their game.

[deputydog]

I still dont see why we cant put clan weapons on IS mechs like in every other MW game. I know its not int he timeline yet, but it would help things alot.

They will never be able to leave clan equipment more powerful and keep the balance, they will have to nerf them down tot he same levels but just make them different colors and durations. This isnt pay2 win so they will keep nerfing.

[Richard Warts]

Personally, before they nerf the Clans any further I'd like to see how balanced the game would be if they were to buff the IS heat sink efficiency. Give us better cool down, increasing our dps. The Clanners would still have the advantage with higher damage output mechs that have greater survivability but IS mechs would have the advantage with strikers - high damage hit and run builds. Plus, if forced to brawl we could as previously stated, sustain fire without having to cool down as often as the Clanners would. Thumbs up if you'd be willing to test out this theory ������

Edit: I'm not saying this would fix everything but I do think it would help.

Edited by Tabu 73, 22 September 2014 - 08:56 AM.

[J0anna]

deputydog, on 22 September 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

I still dont see why we cant put clan weapons on IS mechs like in every other MW game. I know its not int he timeline yet, but it would help things alot.

Because if they did this, almost nobody would use clan mechs - ever. The superior customization of IS mechs loaded with clan weapons? Who wouldn't use them? You might get a few people using Timberwolves or Dire Wolves - but the rest - forget it. That Russ even mentioned this is amazing - it will end community warfare in a day at most. You'd have IS mechs using clan lasers and streaks, IS AC's and LRM's, all the while being able to customize their mechs to their hearts content - while clan mechs could do little or none of that as they can't remove jj, engines or change endo or ferro. Sounds like a disaster to me....

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 22 September 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

Oh now we get into a place where things become ugly.
How to say it that somebody but me understand what i want to say:

You know about BattleValue? You know how the BattleValue for weapons is calculated?
http://www.heavymeta...com/bv_calc.htm
See:
Although the IS MLAS deals 60% damage of the Large Laser - at 20% weight - considering only the "standard" values - it isn't that powerful.
For example at range of 150m it deal only 50% - decreasing. The Large Laser has better range profile - resulting in better hit propabilitys at medium range - and of course TT weapons don't deal all the same damage in the same region. So the 40% more damage for the Large Laser means that one hit out of 4% may cause a critical hit on a Commando (with a chance of utterly destruction of 4% from one hit) - but you will need multiple Medium Lasers to do this.

So the increased heat for the MLAS in the first place - is only a cheap fix to balance the ISMLAS vs the ISLarge Laser.
Given this internal knowlege - the beam duration of the large laser should be shorter AND more damage should be dealt.
or you increase the number of hits necessary - be decreasing damage and beam duration drastically for the MLAS while increasing the cool down rate.

So - we have already a balance flaw considering the Laser Weapons. Because PGI did decide to ignore range brackets and damage distribution in the first place.

What does this mean for the Clan ER-M-Laser? Same range as the IS Large Laser almost same range, less heat lower weight - this weapon should never ever existed. PGI - should have found there own values. (Increased Beam Duration and hopefully soon decreased Cool Down Rating - could be one - decreasing of damage and usage of heat scale other options)

But yeah you are right - when you said - that it wasn't a smart move to increase the heat for ER-M-Laser

they could have taken an IS Medium laser and just buffed range by 100m and if really needed 1damage and call ir CERML. Would have been totally enough.

Or take away 1 damage and one heat from the current CERML.

even if CERML would have only a range advantage and same heat + damage as IS mediums they would have been fine sicne clanners generally have more hardpoints to mount and lower slot Heatsinks to equip making them run cooler as IS mechs having a heat advantage already. It would also gimp lower clan chassis less because they currently have heat issues very quick by not even having that much firepower.

Edited by Lily from animove, 23 September 2014 - 05:18 AM.

[Jam the Bam]

Jorgandr, on 22 September 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Blind faith. Ok....

As opposed to blind scepticism and simply assuming that all of PGI are morons and nobody thought of these things like you did?

[Fire and Salt]

The stupid thing is that they nerfed the clan weapons in response to the 'clans' being overpowered, when really it is just the timberwolf, stormcrow, and possibly the direwolf that are OP.

The nova isn't any more badass than a shadow hawk.
The summoner is a fine heavy mech if you need agility, but not OP.
The war hawk isn't better than a stalker. Its faster and can carry a little more firepower, but its less durable and doesn't benefit from high mounted weapons.
The clan lights certainly aren't OP in any way at all due to being so slow.



They need to Nerf the timberwolf with some negative quirks or worse hit boxes.
Same thing goes for the stormcrow, though it is not as bad as the TBR.
As fire the dire... well it kills things quicky, and dies fast too. Used to die faster before they 'fixed' the hit boxes and I kinda liked that tradeoff. Either way, I don't care about the dire... It will always be slow. Probably the worst mech to use on caustic valley NASCAR races.

If they nerfed the 2-3 problem chassis, they wouldn't need to Nerf all the weapons...

Every time you Nerf the timberwolf and stormcrow with a weapon Nerf, you Nerf the adder too. This makes me sad

[Vidarok]

You shouldn't play with something that's conceived by others as good. You should play with what YOU like. If you just move on to the next flavor of the month or "best meta build" like a mindless drone, then I'm sorry to say you have absolutely no integrity.

[SVK Puskin]

Go to hell clanners!

[Fire and Salt]

Its not about integrity, its about wanting to win.


You may find this impossible to comprehend, but it actually reduces the amount of fun I have when people don't try to optimize.


I choose to play PvP games because, by symmetry there is no such thing as a cheap tactic or cheese builds.
This is because anything cheap or cheesy I can do, can also be done in theory by the opponent.


This is why I gave a hard time keeping interested in games like skyrim.
I intentionally design my characters with synergy in mind, and apparently I am better at it than the game designers intended, because after lvl 20 or so the game actually gets easier instead of harder, because I designed my character to be OP, because I wanted those character design choices to be part of the skill in the game, but apparently Bethesda just wanted me to pick random skills, not research and analyze synergistic tactics.




So, I instead choose to play PvP games with the expectations that the other players will have the skill and wisdom necessary to prevent me from just stomping all over them in an unsatisfying fashion.


Why do you gotta come and ruin my fun with your 13 flamer nova?



*Actually, I enjoy both serious and casual play. I timberwolf. I locust.
Just making a point.