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More Weapons != More Damage


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#1 L Y N X

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:52 AM

After playing MWO a lot since Closed Beta (well over 10,000 matches), I have come to a realization.

I used to think the obvious thoughts,

- Fill every hardpoint!
- Run hot or go home!
- Alpha fire for max pin point damage!

And over time I have come to realize after analyzing or self-criticising myself on WLR that I won more matches and Killed more enemy mechs when I stayed alive longer and moved more and took more shots.

So I began to enhance those abilities on my mechs, I would add a LRM and 1 ton of ammo to my brawlers, sure by itself is does nothing in the presence of AMS, but when combined with others, I started getting a lot more assists, and subsequently C-bills. I was doing something for the first 7-10 minutes of the match besides standing under cover waiting for the enemy to close, or charging the enemy in a rambo attempt at a glorious fiery death. I had more armor left for the last dance and began killing more wounded mechs!

Additionally, I learned to lock my targets as a habit from carrying and using an LRM, the HUD damage display on the enemy was invaluable in the final dances, I learned that being accurate with damage placement got me more torso kills with big mechs and XL engines and leg and arm component destruction's and subsequently more C-bills.

I learned that if I configured my mech with fewer weapons that I could fire them more non-stop and be ready to take that calm shot when my enemy overheated his hot mech. Again, more kills and more XP and C-bills from more Victories. My stats began to improve and took care of themselves. I was becoming a better pilot.

TLDR: Point is often fewer weapons can mean more damage, more assists, more kills, and more XP and C-bills to go along with that success!

Edited by 7ynx, 16 September 2014 - 10:12 AM.


#2 Redshift2k5

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:02 AM

I almost always do more damage in my 2 ERLL kit fox than in any medium or heavy. Shoot and scoot, stay alive.

#3 Turist0AT

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:03 AM

I bring allot of weapons and as they get destoyd over time my mech gets cooler.

#4 jper4

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:13 AM

it depends too on the type of weapons. say on a hunchy 4sp someone with 2 LRM launchers and 4 ML for example will be much better than the same mech with 2 SRM4s and the 4 ML as far as heat goes since the lrms are usually firing at different times than the Mls while all 6 weapons are going off in the same range for that much more heat in one alpha.

for instance i find if i go for a big energy weapon (LL and up) i won;t use all my energy slots, but if i go MPL or less i tend to fill them all. on my vindi 1x i could go 3MGs to fill the 3 ballistics but it works out better with an AC or two and leaving the third slot empty. i find ballistics- other than MGs tend to be the ones i'm most likely not to use all the slots on. 1 AC 20 >>>>>>>>>> 3MG after all

#5 L Y N X

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:18 AM

Thats true Tanar, but this thread is about how not filling every hardpoint can improve one's game. I know... it is a novel idea...

#6 Dracol

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:24 AM

I run dual PPCs mediums to great effect. My heavier IS mechs always have LRMs for the first half of a match and a good selection of close range for the later half.

Imho, hard points are just the limitations one has to work within to build a mech, not a requirement.

Example: I have 2 laser hard points left but only 1 ton. Sure I could put 2 smalls in there, but if I am expecting engagement ranges to be over 200m and have the speed to maintain that distance, the med is a better fit.

Edited by Dracol, 16 September 2014 - 10:27 AM.


#7 Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:47 AM

I get your thought.

For myself, I was running a lot of high-alpha builds with average success. These builds had typically ~30% heat efficiency or even less.

Then one day I discovered the Banshee-3E and realized that being able to continously fire 3 AC5s is actually more effective and more fun too.

Lesson learned: Nowadays I hardly ever go to the Battlefield with less than 40% heat efficiency.

#8 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 12:05 PM

Good points op. However, if you do have empty hard points and available weight, I would put on as many heat sinks as possible. Besides cooling down your mech, they also serve as valuable padding against critical hits.

#9 jper4

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 01:34 PM

View Post7ynx, on 16 September 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Thats true Tanar, but this thread is about how not filling every hardpoint can improve one's game. I know... it is a novel idea...


well the second paragraph of mine was about not using all the hardpoints as 1 big weapon would be better than lots of small ones just to fill all the hardpoints.

since it's in the new players section i figured i'd point with the first paragraph that a new player could actually use all their hardpoints and still manage to avoid running into the second and third things you mentioned about heat and alphas if they really felt they didn;t want to leave any hardpoint unused.

#10 _____

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 01:44 PM

View Post7ynx, on 16 September 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

I would add a LRM and 1 ton of ammo to my brawlers


Sounds like wasted tonnage. Could be used for 1. bigger engine 2. more heatsinks 3. more armor 4. bigger, heavier hitting weapons 5. AMS if you don't already have one? all of which will do more for your team than 180 missiles with the majority of them guaranteed to hit buildings or rocks. Ignorance is bliss.

#11 n r g

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 01:47 PM

View Post7ynx, on 16 September 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

After playing MWO a lot since Closed Beta (well over 10,000 matches), I have come to a realization.

I used to think the obvious thoughts,

- Fill every hardpoint!
- Run hot or go home!
- Alpha fire for max pin point damage!

And over time I have come to realize after analyzing or self-criticising myself on WLR that I won more matches and Killed more enemy mechs when I stayed alive longer and moved more and took more shots.

So I began to enhance those abilities on my mechs, I would add a LRM and 1 ton of ammo to my brawlers, sure by itself is does nothing in the presence of AMS, but when combined with others, I started getting a lot more assists, and subsequently C-bills. I was doing something for the first 7-10 minutes of the match besides standing under cover waiting for the enemy to close, or charging the enemy in a rambo attempt at a glorious fiery death. I had more armor left for the last dance and began killing more wounded mechs!

Additionally, I learned to lock my targets as a habit from carrying and using an LRM, the HUD damage display on the enemy was invaluable in the final dances, I learned that being accurate with damage placement got me more torso kills with big mechs and XL engines and leg and arm component destruction's and subsequently more C-bills.

I learned that if I configured my mech with fewer weapons that I could fire them more non-stop and be ready to take that calm shot when my enemy overheated his hot mech. Again, more kills and more XP and C-bills from more Victories. My stats began to improve and took care of themselves. I was becoming a better pilot.

TLDR: Point is often fewer weapons can mean more damage, more assists, more kills, and more XP and C-bills to go along with that success!


poidh.

[ pics or it didn't happen ]

Edited by E N E R G Y, 16 September 2014 - 01:47 PM.


#12 5LeafClover

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 01:49 PM

I agree with OP.

One of the great things about this game is how one player can throw up a Smurfy map for a mean looking mech, bristling with guns, yet it can perform far worse than someone else's modest but well thought out loadout.

I've recently been working on Phracts. To begin with, I had a 1X with a simple load out of AC10 + 2LLas and was doing decently well. Later on, upgrading to XL gave me tonnage for a PPC. Yet the result of this extra money was fragility and heat issues on warm maps. Sure, I had ECM cancelling abilities, a 2nd 10dmg pin point weapon and extra alpha, but it felt like poor value.

High alpha works well for those moments when you have a 1 on 1 showdown, but I'm thinking sustained DPS is underrated for those (hopefully more common) teamwork scenarios, where you focus fire.

#13 Tesunie

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 02:14 PM

Sounds like something I use for my Battlemaster build. It's gone through a lot of changes over time, but one thing I noticed helped me with the mech was placing an LRM10 on it. My 1G has an UAC5 and LL for mid range, and LRM10 with one ton of ammo for indirect (moving into position) and support, and for desperation needs and a burst of damage, 6 med lasers.

I also learned to treat a mech according to it's designed role. The Battlemaster is an assault class mech, and I was originally trying to treat it like it was a heavily armored med/heavy mech. I eventually removed my XL400 engine and replaced it with a near stock standard engine. Sure, I move slower again, but the mech wasn't very agile anyway, no mater how fast it went!

Overall, good advice. Not every hard point needs to be filled. The engine doesn't have to be maxed. Staying power is better than short term punch and a quick death. Of course, this also depends upon one's play style as well and the roles they preform best on the battlefield.

(As for having LRMs on your mechs, you do know there was a reason many mechs had an LRM rack stock.)

#14 Tesunie

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 02:18 PM

View Post5LeafClover, on 16 September 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

I agree with OP.

One of the great things about this game is how one player can throw up a Smurfy map for a mean looking mech, bristling with guns, yet it can perform far worse than someone else's modest but well thought out loadout.

I've recently been working on Phracts. To begin with, I had a 1X with a simple load out of AC10 + 2LLas and was doing decently well. Later on, upgrading to XL gave me tonnage for a PPC. Yet the result of this extra money was fragility and heat issues on warm maps. Sure, I had ECM cancelling abilities, a 2nd 10dmg pin point weapon and extra alpha, but it felt like poor value.

High alpha works well for those moments when you have a 1 on 1 showdown, but I'm thinking sustained DPS is underrated for those (hopefully more common) teamwork scenarios, where you focus fire.


I have a Shadowhawk with a TAG, LRM10(20?) and an AC5. It's been doing very well, despite it's "slim" payload. It's in how you use it, and when I'm still able to go on the hottest maps while everyone else is shutting done from heat, it can be a great boon.

1 v 1 though, and I'd probably be in some troubles. Then again, I consider myself far more valuable as a support role, and leave the brawling to other people.

#15 Tesunie

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 02:27 PM

View PostBlackhawkSC, on 16 September 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:


Sounds like wasted tonnage. Could be used for 1. bigger engine 2. more heatsinks 3. more armor 4. bigger, heavier hitting weapons 5. AMS if you don't already have one? all of which will do more for your team than 180 missiles with the majority of them guaranteed to hit buildings or rocks. Ignorance is bliss.


This depends upon your preference and point of view. I've often had just a single LRM rack with very little ammo, and used it to good effect. LRMs are flexible enough to still be useful, even in small numbers. I tend to use them while I'm approaching into range of my other weapons, so sinking too many tons in it would be wasteful. However, I find that it can press people back into cover while I advance sometimes, which can make all the difference. Or, I'm out of position greatly, but have a solid lock. I'll support my teammates while I'm moving into position to bring my other guns to bear.

There are many uses for LRMs, and even a few can sometimes be useful and can turn the tide in your favor. (Especially if you've run low on crits. For 2 crits you can get an LRM5 and 1 ton of ammo. For 3, you can have 2 LRM5s and 1 ton ammo. If you have the weight to throw around, sometimes it's better to get an LRM system, than upgrade the engine a tiny bit, or a single DHS, etc.)

#16 Bront

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 02:34 PM

Weapon systems are best when they complement eachother or allow a mech to function in a variety of roles. AC20s, MLs and SRM for short to mid-range brawling, AC10 and Large Lasers for mid-range fights, ERLLs, AC2/5s and PPCs for longer range and pinpoint damage, LRMs for long range support and suppression.

So, I have, say, a Thunderbolt that I want to brawl with but to be able to take shots as it approaches, an ERLL, AC10, and 3MLs allow it to brawl and fight at short range, but do some reasonable damage at a longer range, and it's easy to stop using the ERLL when the MLs come into play. Or the Victor 9K where an AC10 and 3LLs make an effective compliment to the mech, give you range flexability and weapons that complement eachother, but you better be judicious about alphaing with 3LLs and ghost heat.

So yeah, sometimes you don't have to fill all the weapon slots (Though be aware of which ones you use, and make sure you use the best variant for that build). And when it comes to staying cool, better to not fire and keep moving than to shut down in most cases.

#17 terrycloth

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 02:36 PM

Mostly, extra energy hardpoints != more damage. Piling on more medium lasers just because you can is a recipe for overheating if you're not careful, and small lasers just suck. They really do.

Extra ballistic hardpoints get machine guns, which is heat free damage, and most missile hardpoints can either carry LRMs which are often used in different situations than your normal rotation, or SRMs which aren't all that hot and (if you're using longer range weapons) also won't add heat to your normal rotation because they're only for when enemies get close.

If you have the space you can use heat sinks instead, but double heat sinks eat up space *fast*. Larger engines are another option and sometimes that's a better choice than situational weapons, if you can afford it.

Fast light mechs, on the other hand, want to be bristling with lasers because they can actually pull off hit-and-run-and-cool effectively.

#18 L Y N X

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 04:39 PM

View PostE N E R G Y, on 16 September 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:


poidh.

[ pics or it didn't happen ]

Posted Image[/img]
That Prime varient Summoner has only 3 weapons (cUAC10, cERLL, cLRM10)Posted Image

This 3L is only 2 ERLL.

Posted Image
Cicada with 2x LL

Edited by 7ynx, 16 September 2014 - 04:53 PM.


#19 Flak Kannon

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 05:15 PM

I played my COMM-1B this morning. 171 kph.

Limited weapon loadout...Fast as heck.

Topped 500 damage most matches...


My Speed is my Armor.

My Speed is my Weapon.

#20 L Y N X

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 06:34 PM

View PostBlackhawkSC, on 16 September 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:


Sounds like wasted tonnage. Could be used for 1. bigger engine 2. more heatsinks 3. more armor 4. bigger, heavier hitting weapons 5. AMS if you don't already have one? all of which will do more for your team than 180 missiles with the majority of them guaranteed to hit buildings or rocks. Ignorance is bliss.


1. My Dragon already runs about 90KPH for a heavy with a std, does not need to be faster, 2. My HE is already 1.55 does not need more HS, 3. already max armor, unable to fit more armor, Or I'd agree right here, 4. I have considered an upgrade to my LBx-10 to AC10 but that is only 1 ton, not 3, so I do not need to. 5. AMS is mounted.

I've gotten killing blows w/o LOS with LRM5's. If all you do is hit buildings and rocks then you are using them wrong. I have used them to dumb fire overhead where I "think" the enemy is, and get their AMS to fire to give away the approximate enemy position. Not a big waste when it is only 5 missiles, I would not want to waste 10, 15 or 20 missiles that... Thanks for reading my thread.





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