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Paul, Russ, A Proposal


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#1 Slepnir

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:56 PM

As I'm sure your coming to realise by now , nerfing weapons doesn't work, messing with heat doesn't work, Mech quirks don't work either.

At the end of the day all your going to end up with in your quest for balance is a bunch of inner sphere mechs that look like clan mechs.

The answer to making it a fair has been in the game for close to 30 years-numbers, the clans were always outnumbered.

I think you will find that changes to the rewards sytem is a much easier fix. in fact the percentage already exists in the classic game. its as simple as changing damage, kill and assist rewards on clan mechs by inner sphere mech from 1. to 1.6. more rewards for killing the fancy clan mech and be comparison the clanners have the potential for more rewards because there are more targets. in the end it balances out for both sides.


In this manner you can have a propper and "balanced" dare I say fair fight when you put 8 inner sphere mechs(2 lances) up against a clan star of 5.

All I suggest is to at least test it without worrying about the reward payout just to see how the inner sphere fairs against clans in this setting.

Keep 3/3/3/3, contact some of the active player groups( 9th sword, omc, rjf etc..) to set up tests on private server matches and see what the battles look like. I think you will be pleasantly suprised.

This way you stay true to the IP and find the balance you so desperately seek.

Edited by Slepnir, 16 September 2014 - 08:59 PM.


#2 MoonfireSpam

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:07 PM

If you can find people that want to be cannon fodder, that's cool. Personally I think the idea of playing as fodder sucks.

And you'd need more players wanting to be fodder than wanting to blow stuff up (unlikely since people already gravitate towards "meta" rather than "fun builds").

Lastly: You're = you are, not "your". Such a pet hate of mine.

#3 Tezcatli

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:22 PM

Nope. I don't want to be cannon fodder so Clanners can live up their dream. : /

#4 Slepnir

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:26 PM

That would be the auto spell correct.


On topic perhaps you should read my post again, NOBODY is going to be fodder. in fact it will be far more balaced than pauls little IS V clan test today which heavily favours clans when there are equal numbers. meta builds or not I am certain it will lead to much closer and fair fights with rewards balancing each other out. the only way to prove this is to test it and have Paul, Russ and the other devs see the results with their own eyes.


Side note, really tired of the canon fodder comments, it implies you're
A. a bad pilot
B. are not trying to fight back
c. are incapable of understanding what a 3 mech advantage gives you
D. you somehow think clans have magic armor where 50 points is not 50 points because its clan.

Edited by Slepnir, 16 September 2014 - 09:37 PM.


#5 p4r4g0n

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:29 PM

How does your proposal address the solo queue and players demands that they should be able to play with their friends in public queue at least, regardless of whether they bring IS or Clan mechs?

#6 Russ Bullock

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM

These responses sum up my greatest concern for CW viability long term.

If it is anything less than 12v12 and perfectly balanced all but the very most diehard will gravitate to the Clans to feel dominating, or stop playing.

Remember BT 3025 was just IS, much easier.

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

And I have to disagree, weapon balances do work, they have worked in games since the first game. All we need is the collective will to make it happen. Don't take this as I am going to nerf clans more thread, we have a couple things lined up first like IS Quirks which is really the same as saying buffs if you use them right.

Tough problem but we can get there

#7 orcrist86

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:34 PM

Balancing through attrition is not balance at all.

#8 Carrie Harder

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:35 PM

View PostRuss Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

These responses sum up my greatest concern for CW viability long term.

If it is anything less than 12v12 and perfectly balanced all but the very most diehard will gravitate to the Clans to feel dominating, or stop playing.

Remember BT 3025 was just IS, much easier.

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

And I have to disagree, weapon balances do work, they have worked in games since the first game. All we need is the collective will to make it happen. Don't take this as I am going to nerf clans more thread, we have a couple things lined up first like IS Quirks which is really the same as saying buffs if you use them right.

Tough problem but we can get there

About the quirks...might Victors get a reduction/removal of their previous negative agility quirks, now that they can't really poptart well anymore and they're facing the Clans?

#9 MoonfireSpam

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:39 PM

View PostSlepnir, on 16 September 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

That would be the auto spell correct.


On topic perhaps you should read my post again, NOBODY is going to be fodder. in fact it will be far more balaced than pauls little IS V clan test today which heavily favours clans when there are equal numbers. meta builds or not I am certain it will lead to much closer and fair fights with rewards balancing each other out. the only way to prove this is to test it and have Paul, Russ and the other devs see the results with their own eyes.


The Inner Sphere is fodder in your system. How is it not?

You propose a system where one side is more powerful, and the other is weaker but has strength in numbers. That's turning over half the player base into targets.

If 2 MMA cage fighters go fight 10 regular dudes, do you think they will all have fun?

edit: this level of forum interaction from PGI is really insanely good.

Edited by MoonfireSpam, 16 September 2014 - 09:40 PM.


#10 Slepnir

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:46 PM

Russ thanks for the prompt response, id still like to see it tested, but I understand you do have a business to run to.

orcist it does work and it is balanced, I still play battletech regularly(perks of working in a game store on the weekend). it is always a hard fight when 2 lances face of against a clan star(and there are no weapon nerfs) its always hard to tell who will win.

#11 Russ Bullock

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:49 PM

View PostCarrie Harder, on 16 September 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

About the quirks...might Victors get a reduction/removal of their previous negative agility quirks, now that they can't really poptart well anymore and they're facing the Clans?


Yes it will be flushed for the new quirks

#12 Solomon Ward

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:52 PM

Best of both worlds imho -> i`d love to have the possibility to set up 10 vs 12 in Private matches with superior Clan Mechs
( You can chose between standard and unnerfed weapon values).

#13 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:55 PM

Any chance that the Nova can get a looking at for Quirks as well Russ?

The extra heat has very much hurt its abilities to even use the default stock loadouts, you've probably read plenty of me venting my frustrations about it on many posts, but I think the gripes are well founded considering energy is its only viable choice for weaponry.

Oh and OMG THANK YOU!!! for giving the Victor a good looking at.

Edited by Mister D, 16 September 2014 - 09:57 PM.


#14 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:58 PM

Quote

"Carrie Harder, on 16 September 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

About the quirks...might Victors get a reduction/removal of their previous negative agility quirks, now that they can't really poptart well anymore and they're facing the Clans?"

Yes it will be flushed for the new quirks
So I get my Victors back finally? Its late but I think I am reading it correctly.

Oh and I lot of us have no desire to see uneven teams. And a lot of us think quirks etc are a good way to go.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 16 September 2014 - 09:56 PM.


#15 Impyrium

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:05 PM

View PostSlepnir, on 16 September 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

Mech quirks don't work either.


They might not completely change the game, but they're still really welcome. My Awesome is much more enjoyable now, and it does make 'Mechs feel more unique rather than just different models and hardpoints.

#16 Mystere

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:06 PM

View PostRuss Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

These responses sum up my greatest concern for CW viability long term.

If it is anything less than 12v12 and perfectly balanced all but the very most diehard will gravitate to the Clans to feel dominating, or stop playing.

Remember BT 3025 was just IS, much easier.

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

And I have to disagree, weapon balances do work, they have worked in games since the first game. All we need is the collective will to make it happen. Don't take this as I am going to nerf clans more thread, we have a couple things lined up first like IS Quirks which is really the same as saying buffs if you use them right.

Tough problem but we can get there


So how about a radical idea. Bring the Clan vs. IS balance close (perfect balance is impossible) and then still implement 10 Clan vs. 12 IS?

The Clans were supposed to be better skilled. So let those skills show and have success playing as the Clans highly dependent on skill. Call it "hard mode". (and yes, I am serious)

#17 CocoaJin

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:07 PM

In the past, I've had the idea of balance through asymmetrical objectives. I'm not sure how to apply it to MWO, I'll put some thought to it, but the idea came up while I was into Star Trek Online(shut up!). In this case, I played Klingon. We had two major drawbacks: 1)A significantly smaller faction population so we would always be out-numbered and easily stretched thin if their were ever to be several battles waging at once in a true faction war(which never came to fruitition as far as I know). 2) Our ships were ambush/guerrilla oriented in terms of combat systems, but all the matches were timed, pre-defined, "play dates".

Number two was a huge, but easily missed disadvantage. It meant we could never effectively use our only combat strengths effectively if the Federation players knew we were there(because the matches were queued Fed vs Kling), had a timer for match start(essentially a timer to tell them when to go on high alert, literally and figuratively)...and a timer to tell them how long until they could stand down. We rarely benefited from surprise, complacency, fatigue, etc...all the things ambush forces rely on.

It dawned on me(this is the part I've trying to get to), the Klingon faction would never be able to effectively combat the Federation players if we were forced to have the same objectives and goals as the Fed faction. The goals and objectives were inherently stacked in favor of the Federation's forces which were geared toward conventional warfare: Engage in numbers, occupy, then hold/defend. There is no way we could use our assets the same way, for the same goals in timed, "play date" death matches.

Instead, we needed to have a totally separate set of objectives and means to feed our war machine and claim territory for our faction. Even down to the matches, we needed to have separate objectives and/or separate means of achieving the same objectives. We needed to do our best to work on our goals while impacting the enemy in thier ability to achieve theirs.

I think some spin off of this theory what would be needed in CW. First, we must seek to determine what are the fundamental differences in the IS and Clan weapon platforms(strengths, weaknesses, design philosophies, etc) differences, if any, in faction motivations, create mechanics that reflect unique aspects of each faction, like lore population numbers, player population numbers, etc.

In identifying these differences, you can better create objectives that are 1) more geared toward each faction, 2) objectives that are common between the two and then lastly, provide varying mixes and combinations of these objectives in the matches and in the larger campaign as a whole.

Edited: for typos.

Edited by CocoaJin, 16 September 2014 - 10:16 PM.


#18 Russ Bullock

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:07 PM

View PostMister D, on 16 September 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

Any chance that the Nova can get a looking at for Quirks as well Russ?

The extra heat has very much hurt its abilities to even use the default stock loadouts, you've probably read plenty of me venting my frustrations about it on many posts, but I think the gripes are well founded considering energy is its only viable choice for weaponry.

Oh and OMG THANK YOU!!! for giving the Victor a good looking at.


Yes after IS I am sure we will quirk pass clans - they will get less because many are already Tier 1 mechs but some need some quirks

#19 Carrie Harder

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:12 PM

View PostRuss Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Yes after IS I am sure we will quirk pass clans - they will get less because many are already Tier 1 mechs but some need some quirks

Hopefully Adders will no longer be Badders when that time comes. And the Summoner no longer being the Suckoner.

Although, the Man O' War (nickname Woman O' Peace) might possibly need preemptive quirks?

#20 Saint Scarlett Johan

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:24 PM

View PostSlepnir, on 16 September 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

I still play battletech regularly(perks of working in a game store on the weekend). it is always a hard fight when 2 lances face of against a clan star(and there are no weapon nerfs) its always hard to tell who will win.


That works in a strategy game where quantity is it's own quality. We see it in SC2, where zerg units on an individual basis are "inferior" to the the Terran and Protoss units, but make up for it in a much lower cost per unit in both resources and population.

1 Zealot > 1 Marine > 1 Zergling

But the if you brought about the costs. You get this:

1 Zealot, 2 Marines, or 4 Zerglings. Now it's balanced.


But this isn't a game of numbers and data like Starcraft or Battletech. This is a Real Time, individual skill based shooter. It doesn't work. I don't remember if you played MW3 or MW4, but people didn't use IS tech at all in MW3. And in MW4 only select IS chassis kitted out with Clan weapons saw use.

I'd rather my IS mechs not be totally deprecated to the trash heap so some people can get their jimmies off in a 1st Person version of BT. Because if the previous MW titles are anything to go by, your idea is flawed and I hope it never sees the light of day.

As it stands in MWO now, the IS mechs actually have a fighting chance 1v1.

EDIT:

I also see your signature, which is a CHH emblem. It figures, other than Joe Mallan, the only people wanting OP clan tech are Clanners.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 16 September 2014 - 10:26 PM.






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