22 replies to this topic

[Kyrie]

Dear PGI,

Placing this in the off-topic section as its pretty off-topic to MWO. In the spirit of the new glasnost that has broken out, permit me to point out a potential PR nightmare for you folks at PGI. It would appear that IGP is quietly disappearing from the scene, and taking with it all the money the Founders' put into MW Tactics. After listening carefully to the wonderful Town Hall meeting with Russ, I understand that the following is the contractual relationship schema with regards to MWT:

1) Microsoft owns the MW IP.
2) Microsoft awarded a general license for MW to PGI.
3) PGI in turn awarded a license to IGP to develop MWT.
4) Based on that license, IGP collected Founders money as well as further in-game purchases.
5) All of the signs point to the fact that IGP has acted deceptively for many long months now with regard to the development of MWT.
5a) Keeping the Blue Lizard logo on the website as developers for the game when in fact that contract was cancelled December 2013.
5b) Development was frozen since then with weird retread patches reiterating retired content from the game with the same bugs and design problems that caused them to be removed in the first place.
5c) The website has been down for well over a week with a sign saying "72 hours".
5d) Continuing to collect money knowing that the project was basically dead.

Now I fully understand that PGI is not necessarily financially liable for IGP's misdeeds. However, as one of the Founders who at this point has no recourse against IGP I would truly appreciate it if you could exercise your ethical responsibility as the license-holder for IGP and tell us exactly what is going on. At some point it seems to be obvious that IGP has to be breaking the contract they signed with you.

Edited by Kyrie, 17 September 2014 - 08:45 AM.

[ackstorm]

hear, hear

[S3dition]

Kyrie, on 17 September 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Dear PGI,

Placing this in the off-topic section as its pretty off-topic to MWO. In the spirit of the new glasnost that has broken out, permit me to point out a potential PR nightmare for you folks at PGI. It would appear that IGP is quietly disappearing from the scene, and taking with it all the money the Founders' put into MW Tactics. After listening carefully to the wonderful Town Hall meeting with Russ, I understand that the following is the contractual relationship schema with regards to MWT:

1) Microsoft owns the MW IP.
2) Microsoft awarded a general license for MW to PGI.
3) PGI in turn awarded a license to IGP to develop MWT.
4) Based on that license, IGP collected Founders money as well as further in-game purchases.
5) All of the signs point to the fact that IGP has acted deceptively for many long months now with regard to the development of MWT.
5a) Keeping the Blue Lizard logo on the website as developers for the game when in fact that contract was cancelled December 2013.
5b) Development was frozen since then with weird retread patches reiterating retired content from the game with the same bugs and design problems that caused them to be removed in the first place.
5c) The website has been down for well over a week with a sign saying "72 hours".
5d) Continuing to collect money knowing that the project was basically dead.

Now I fully understand that PGI is not necessarily financially liable for IGP's misdeeds. However, as one of the Founders who at this point has no recourse against IGP I would truly appreciate it if you could exercise your ethical responsibility as the license-holder for IGP and tell us exactly what is going on. At some point it seems to be obvious that IGP has to be breaking the contract they signed with you.

I would highly recommend that anyone who has purchased a founder pack or any cash shop items from Mechwarrior: Tactics to request a refund and speak with their card companies about reversing payment. Failing this, contact the Office of Consumer Affairs (OCA) and inform them of the situation politely. This includes a factual account of dates, proof of your attempt to contact IGP, and any attempts to recover money via your credit company. Leave nerd rage on the forums.

There are potential grounds for a class action suit, but I would wait for the above options to expire before pursuing that, as lawyers will only bother if it will line their pockets heavily. It's unlikely IGP has much (if any) money left and it would barely be into the seven figures for repayment. As for hiring a lawyer... well, most retaining fees are around $1000. Not a great investment for a $30 founder pack.

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, and didn't buy an MW:T founder pack.

As far as PGI is concerned, they have no legal or moral obligation to cover for IGP. While I understand the frustration surrounding MW:T, there is nothing they can tell you about IGP. Certainly nothing that will resolve 9 months of deceit and years of faulty product development. Your only recourse is the above options.

[Kyrie]

S3dition, on 17 September 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

I would highly recommend that anyone who has purchased a founder pack or any cash shop items from Mechwarrior: Tactics to request a refund and speak with their card companies about reversing payment. Failing this, contact the Office of Consumer Affairs (OCA) and inform them of the situation politely. This includes a factual account of dates, proof of your attempt to contact IGP, and any attempts to recover money via your credit company. Leave nerd rage on the forums.

There are potential grounds for a class action suit, but I would wait for the above options to expire before pursuing that, as lawyers will only bother if it will line their pockets heavily. It's unlikely IGP has much (if any) money left and it would barely be into the seven figures for repayment. As for hiring a lawyer... well, most retaining fees are around $1000. Not a great investment for a $30 founder pack.

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, and didn't buy an MW:T founder pack.

As far as PGI is concerned, they have no legal or moral obligation to cover for IGP. While I understand the frustration surrounding MW:T, there is nothing they can tell you about IGP. Certainly nothing that will resolve 9 months of deceit and years of faulty product development. Your only recourse is the above options.

They [PGI] can tell us a lot actually. First, they can confirm whether IGP has communicated to them what they are going to do. Legally, IGP has a license with PGI. It is hard to imagine PGI granting a license that does not have a clause or two pertaining to performance simply to ensure that the brand (MW) is not devalued. Logically, Microsoft would insist on this (being the primary owner of the IP).

While I am conjecturing wildly here, it is not difficult to imagine that there are clauses in that contract permitting PGI to recover the license in the event of non-performance. I am almost positive that PGI, having issued this license to IGP, is on the hook to Microsoft for how it performs... and IGP's non-performance puts the overall license at risk.

To a certain extent it is in PGI's interests to intervene simply because:

1) They hold the license and must answer to Microsoft for the fact that they awarded MWT to IGP.
2) IGP's gross non-performance has an impact on the MW brand.

PGI is in a difficult position and should take some action to clear up the mess at IGP for the sake of the overall license.

[DoctorDetroit]

PGI could pick up MWT as a future project. Probably inexpensive and likely to make a profit!
Good way to keep programmers/art designers on staff and working, might even allow some promotions.

And I am sure founders wouldn't mind it being started up again, especially with a gift(s).

[S3dition]

Kyrie, on 17 September 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

They [PGI] can tell us a lot actually. First, they can confirm whether IGP has communicated to them what they are going to do. Legally, IGP has a license with PGI. It is hard to imagine PGI granting a license that does not have a clause or two pertaining to performance simply to ensure that the brand (MW) is not devalued. Logically, Microsoft would insist on this (being the primary owner of the IP).

While I am conjecturing wildly here, it is not difficult to imagine that there are clauses in that contract permitting PGI to recover the license in the event of non-performance. I am almost positive that PGI, having issued this license to IGP, is on the hook to Microsoft for how it performs... and IGP's non-performance puts the overall license at risk.

To a certain extent it is in PGI's interests to intervene simply because:

1) They hold the license and must answer to Microsoft for the fact that they awarded MWT to IGP.
2) IGP's gross non-performance has an impact on the MW brand.

PGI is in a difficult position and should take some action to clear up the mess at IGP for the sake of the overall license.

Unlikely. There are NDAs signed (as Niko mentioned) and much of what went on wasn't even allowed to go public until this month on PGI's end. Losing the rights is generally automatic, but PGI can't force IGP to give them a status update. From what was said, it sounds like the rights may have went back to Microsoft (or actually returned to PGI) already.

Microsoft doesn't much care about Mechwarrior or Battletech. Even if they did, they already gave full license to PGI with the obvious authority to sub-license. This means that MS has no legal hand in where the sub-licensing goes.

If there was a reason for PGI to visibly yank back the license, they would have done it already.

They cannot, and will not tell you:

If IGP is negotiating a new contract with developers
If IGP is securing additional funding to continue development
if IGP is declaring bankruptcy
if IGP burned down (scan the local news)

PGI is not the publisher of MW:T and has no power or authority to get the information you want. Simply issuing a sub-license does not grant you legal authority over a company. And since IGP was MWO's publisher, it's entirely likely that they wanted a sub-license with no strings attached - and got it.

EDIT: That being said, I wouldn't mind a company forming to make a battletech game using MWO's mech models and a similar (though better thought out than MW:T) approach to mutliplayer.

I'd actually give this a shot myself if I lived in a country where the government gives you money to make video games.

Edited by S3dition, 17 September 2014 - 02:46 PM.

[ninjitsu]

OP is so nonsensical it's humorous. PGI has nothing to do with tactics. get over it.

[Kyrie]

ninjitsu, on 17 September 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

OP is so nonsensical it's humorous. PGI has nothing to do with tactics. get over it.

They do in fact have a few things to do with Tactics, by virtue of sub-licensing it to IGP.

S3dition, on 17 September 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Unlikely. There are NDAs signed (as Niko mentioned) and much of what went on wasn't even allowed to go public until this month on PGI's end. Losing the rights is generally automatic, but PGI can't force IGP to give them a status update. From what was said, it sounds like the rights may have went back to Microsoft (or actually returned to PGI) already.

Microsoft doesn't much care about Mechwarrior or Battletech. Even if they did, they already gave full license to PGI with the obvious authority to sub-license. This means that MS has no legal hand in where the sub-licensing goes.

If there was a reason for PGI to visibly yank back the license, they would have done it already.

They cannot, and will not tell you:

If IGP is negotiating a new contract with developers
If IGP is securing additional funding to continue development
if IGP is declaring bankruptcy
if IGP burned down (scan the local news)

PGI is not the publisher of MW:T and has no power or authority to get the information you want. Simply issuing a sub-license does not grant you legal authority over a company. And since IGP was MWO's publisher, it's entirely likely that they wanted a sub-license with no strings attached - and got it.

EDIT: That being said, I wouldn't mind a company forming to make a battletech game using MWO's mech models and a similar (though better thought out than MW:T) approach to mutliplayer.

I'd actually give this a shot myself if I lived in a country where the government gives you money to make video games.

NDA issues are a fair point. However, nothing prevents PGI from taking action and keeping it to themselves -- I would be happy with that. Microsoft may or may not care about BT/MW. However, the lawyers who draft licensing agreements almost always ensure that protection is given to the IP behind any licensing deal. This is just common sense. The accountants who eventually review the performance of licensing deals (and corresponding sub-licensing deals) will also weigh in.

A few case by case conjectures:

1) If IGP is declaring bankruptcy, it means that the license would most likely revert back to PGI. Then it becomes PGI's choice what to do with this.

2) Securing funding to continue development is an extremely unlikely scenario. From what we have learned to date, they have basically liquidated everything and fired everyone. The entire deception they practiced for the last 8 months or so points to a different scenario, one in which the money simply stopped. The fact that IGP agreed to divest itself from MWO speaks volumes.

3) Negotiating a new contract with developers -- highly unlikely scenario. See previous.

4) A raging fire has likely been in progress for a while.

[S3dition]

Kyrie, on 17 September 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

They do in fact have a few things to do with Tactics, by virtue of sub-licensing it to IGP.

[size=4]

NDA issues are a fair point. However, nothing prevents PGI from taking action and keeping it to themselves -- I would be happy with that. Microsoft may or may not care about BT/MW. However, the lawyers who draft licensing agreements almost always ensure that protection is given to the IP behind any licensing deal. This is just common sense. The accountants who eventually review the performance of licensing deals (and corresponding sub-licensing deals) will also weigh in.

A few case by case conjectures:

1) If IGP is declaring bankruptcy, it means that the license would most likely revert back to PGI. Then it becomes PGI's choice what to do with this.

2) Securing funding to continue development is an extremely unlikely scenario. From what we have learned to date, they have basically liquidated everything and fired everyone. The entire deception they practiced for the last 8 months or so points to a different scenario, one in which the money simply stopped. The fact that IGP agreed to divest itself from MWO speaks volumes.

3) Negotiating a new contract with developers -- highly unlikely scenario. See previous.

4) A raging fire has likely been in progress for a while.

Unlikely or not is irrelevant, The point is that they couldn't tell you. Which means we're back where we started with you needing to take action on your own if you want any tangible results.

Even if PGI told you something, it would not be to your liking nor further attempts to get a refund.

Microsoft doesn't care about IGP. They gave the license to PGI, and PGI sub-leased it. Microsoft can't touch it, no matter how little is done with it, as they are still being paid by PGI, who holds the main license.

If IGP decides to do something financially, they have no obligation to tell PGI and you'll have to scan the news for it. There is literally no connection between the two companies anymore, and nobody knows what IGP is up to.

[Kyrie]

S3dition, on 17 September 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Unlikely or not is irrelevant, The point is that they couldn't tell you. Which means we're back where we started with you needing to take action on your own if you want any tangible results.

Even if PGI told you something, it would not be to your liking nor further attempts to get a refund.

Microsoft doesn't care about IGP. They gave the license to PGI, and PGI sub-leased it. Microsoft can't touch it, no matter how little is done with it, as they are still being paid by PGI, who holds the main license.

If IGP decides to do something financially, they have no obligation to tell PGI and you'll have to scan the news for it. There is literally no connection between the two companies anymore, and nobody knows what IGP is up to.

The connection is the licensing deal. If I give you a general license, and you sub-license it to someone who really screws things up... I would hold you responsible for it. You are assuming that Microsoft has not reserved itself any rights to monitor sub-licensees.

PGI has certain contractual rights under the licensing deal with IGP, whatever those may be. As I said previously, even if they can never say anything about it (something that is not necessarily true, as bad faith by IGP would probably void the NDA) as long as PGI pays attention to what the hell IGP is doing it I am more than satisfied.

All I ask is that PGI exercise whatever rights they have under their contract with IGP.. something they should have done much sooner as a responsible steward of the general license IMHO.

[Grrzoot]

seeing as they are two seperate companies, pgi would do well to never, ever mention mwt unless they want to get pulled into that hornets nest.

i don't see this getting a response here.

[Kyrie]

Well, was never expecting an official response. I was, however, interested in seeing a "proof of life" that IGP is still alive and is intending to keep working on the game.

To my very great surprise, the loading page at mwtactics.com has been updated to show:

1) They are looking for a new data center.
2) They are looking for a development partner.

Now had they been upfront about this 8 months ago, there would be a lot less range in the internet-o-sphere. ;-)

[Will70]

if they are not going to keep going with Tactics they need to either reimburse us or give me back my founders pack here i had the legendary on there at one time had it on MWO. IF they don't want to do that then they owe me $420 dollars for the founders on Tactics and the money i have spent on MWO because i Do not want anything to do with fraudulent companies. Also do not tell me you can not give me a founders pack because they are all gone, it is a game made up of codes, that you can enter or take away. Also for the people fighting the people that got messed with in this ordeal grow up and help your fellow man and stop being haters!! This could have happened to you as well. Also until recently IPG logo was on this games entrance video's and they have removed it so that say allot.

Edited by Will70, 28 September 2014 - 07:54 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

Of course they removed he IGP logo, IGP is no longer the publisher for MWO; PGI is flying solo.

Sorry about money lost on MWT, but that is absolutely zero percent PGI's fault. you can go try to get your money back from IGP but we've seen very clearly in correspondence they refuse to refund any preorders older than a year.

[MN 2fisted]

Still nothing, join us at ISW / mekwars to keep things... pulsating?

[b1ackadder]

Just for the lazy ones:

"MechWarrior Tactics will remain offline for a while longer.
We apologize for the downtime as we look for a new infrastructure to host the game and a new development partner.
We hope to have the live game soon. We will post an update here as soon as we have a timeline to go live."

- 14th of October

[Draal Kaan]

b1ackadder, on 14 October 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

Just for the lazy ones:

"MechWarrior Tactics will remain offline for a while longer.
We apologize for the downtime as we look for a new infrastructure to host the game and a new development partner.
We hope to have the live game soon. We will post an update here as soon as we have a timeline to go live."

- 14th of October

Yeah, sure.

[Country Gravy]

Pretty sure they announced this was coming back soon, didn't they?

[Draal Kaan]

Hope dies last...

[Rifter]

Just FYI for anyone interested I have tried to email IGP(support@mwtactics.com email) 4 times now, each time email doesn't go through(get undeliverable message 3-4 days later) I have tried from 3 different email addresses so I know issue is on their end.

I am now looking into filing paperwork to take them to small claims court to get my money back as CC company wont help me as its been over 6 months now.

Luckily my uncle is a lawyer and can help me out for free if i need any help in small claims court.