133 replies to this topic

[Asmudius Heng]

Zeece, on 30 September 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

This works under the assumption that there won't be 12man teams that wont be sitting and waiting to react to attacks.

I know the Skye Rangers will have multiple 12man teams that will be attacking and defending during windows. The attacks are going to be coming so hot and heavy that 12man defend teams can organize, form up and simple click defend as soon as the alert goes out.

Oh i am sure there will be those as well.

However all i am suggesting is making sure that 12 mans made of multiple groups as a 'pick up' side have ways of planning and communication rather than just getting sucked into a battle then spending ages trying to form a plan through text while the enemy steamroll them.

VOIP and a LFG function are most important.

If my unit has 5 guys on and we want to go into CW i would expect the game to allow my 'Merc' unit to be able to find other groups with the factions we are aligned to quickly so we can make an on the fly 12 man group.

Preparation, planning and communication - if the defenders are not like your team they need to be able to manage this quickly in game is all i am saying.

It does beg the question about a planet though.

If clan obese otter attack your planet and you have a 12 man ready to defend ... is it just a contest between your 12 man and thiers? OR suddenly do the flood gates open and multiple battles are happening on that planet? There might be 12 mans on each faction side going at it while others are drawn into this hot point.

Or maybe some scrub can be asked to attack a planet to draw your 12 mans away while the other highly coimpetative teams hit another area and try to steamroll as many as they can quickly while you are tied up.

Many unknowns, will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

[RockmachinE]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 30 September 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

To be fair, he only posted once in this thread. So he knew when to stop

However, you make a good point. Henceforth, I will call this Brofist's Law.
"If the MWO community can unite and agree on anything, it's only because it's a really terrible idea."

Or rather:
"When consensus among MWO players (cP) increases, the number of negative responses (N) increases exponentially."

If God, Jesus, Mary and Joseph formed an MWO player council, they still wouldn't get more than a 50% approval rating.

Oh I thought I saw him again...

I must say I am greatly honored by this gesture and while normally rude and aggressive, I appreciate this a lot and humbly accept the honors !

Edited by Louis Brofist, 30 September 2014 - 04:46 AM.

[Sirius Drake]

Asmudius Heng, on 30 September 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

No.

I said that the way CW is looking an organised 12 man team gets inherent advantages because of the way things work not because they are a team.

a 12 man team can launch an attack which means they can sit down, create an organised drop deck, all get on teamspeak and then its all systems go.

The defenders get 2 minutes to grab whoever is available to for a quick team to then try to repel the invaders.

This means that the 12 man attackers have a large advantage that has nothing to do with teamwork, but everything to do with preparation and communications systems.

And yes the CW SYSTEM needs to have the functionality needed to allow the defenders to have a similar advantage in communications and preparation otherwise the outcome is less to do with skill and teamwork and more about the pre battle meta which only one side truly has.

So ... maybe you need to reconsider what you said and read a little more clearly.

No. I don't. Like Zeece already said: there will be as well full prepared 12 man Teams sitting on the other side of the Gun, fully organized and ready to respond.

What you want is a Tech Solution for people that are too lazy to get their asses up.
I am not going to support you in that.
What you demaned is simply to punish organized faction Units, mercs, Clans.
And you demand it BECAUSE they are organized and for no other reason.

[Asmudius Heng]

Sirius Drake, on 30 September 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

No. I don't. Like Zeece already said: there will be as well full prepared 12 man Teams sitting on the other side of the Gun, fully organized and ready to respond.

What you want is a Tech Solution for people that are too lazy to get their asses up.
I am not going to support you in that.
What you demaned is simply to punish organized faction Units, mercs, Clans.
And you demand it BECAUSE they are organized and for no other reason.

.... what am i suggesting that is punishing anyone??

[Hoax415]

Asmudius Heng, on 30 September 2014 - 04:44 AM, said:

However all i am suggesting is making sure that 12 mans made of multiple groups as a 'pick up' side have ways of planning and communication rather than just getting sucked into a battle then spending ages trying to form a plan through text while the enemy steamroll them.

If my unit has 5 guys on and we want to go into CW i would expect the game to allow my 'Merc' unit to be able to find other groups with the factions we are aligned to quickly so we can make an on the fly 12 man group.

If you are aware enough to understand the advantage of 12-mans and are social enough to be able to handle planning with in-game VOIP why wouldn't you just take your 5-man and go to one of the many many public VOIP's that exist for the purpose of forming pick up groups and organizing them?

For instance the FWL runs a very tidy TS for Marik faction players and friendly mercs that I hope anyone who isn't on their own unit's TS (in their own unit's 12-man) will use to find/form an ad-hoc group. There is no reason, except for being anti 12 man to be dropping in small groups in CW. If you opt in to play CW you should be aware enough to realize this is a tryharder game-mode and there will be a LOT more 12-mans than you ever see in public group queue and as of right now zero plan for MatchMaker to try to protect anyone from said 12-mans.

Edited by Hoax415, 30 September 2014 - 04:51 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Hoax415, on 30 September 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

If you are aware enough to understand the advantage of 12-mans and are social enough to be able to handle planning with in-game VOIP why wouldn't you just take your 5-man and go to one of the many many public VOIP's that exist for the purpose of forming pick up groups and organizing them?

For instance the FWL runs a very tidy TS for Marik faction players and friendly mercs that I hope anyone who isn't on their own unit's TS (in their own unit's 12-man) will use to find/form an ad-hoc group. There is no reason, except for being anti 12 man to be dropping in small groups in CW. If you opt in to play CW you should be aware enough to realize this is a tryharder game-mode and there will be a LOT more 12-mans than you ever saw in public group queue.

Because the game should be supplying an in game solution for this not 3rd party.

I can do this and will ... but there are plenty of smaller groups who are far less involved that would find this a hassle.

Asking for basic additional functionality to make teamwork possible within the system of the game itself is hardly a problem.

DRopping less than 12 mans in CW you seem to indicate is the realm of only the biggest organised and most dedicated groups. I disagree, i think the game needs to cater to all sorts of players in CW and the game needs to be able to help those who are not 'in the know' get into the right systems.

I am amazed people are attacking me for stating that features that have already been confirmed are being worked on like VOIP would help narrow the gap.

Get a grip fellas - i am not ******** on 12 mans, i have done the high end competition in my youth i know the score.

[Zeece]

I had really hoped we would have a Solo and Small Group Que and a 12man que for Assault/Defend so that we didn't have to worry about PUGs running into the 12man wall.. Can they win? Yah... but the odds are totally against them.

Perhaps - Limit the 12mans to a couple drops a time period per Unit Tag... sure it can be gamed but its alot of work to do so the gaming should be pretty tiny.

[Livewyr]

Is there a reason that an organized full team of people who are skilled, on comms, and play regularly with each other should not dominate?

[Zeece]

Livewyr, on 30 September 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

Is there a reason that an organized full team of people who are skilled, on comms, and play regularly with each other should not dominate?

Better question... Would you want to want to log in and play a game where you lost almost every single game? That is the danger here.

I don't want to see players driven away.

[Livewyr]

Zeece, on 30 September 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

Better question... Would you want to want to log in and play a game where you lost almost every single game? That is the danger here.

I don't want to see players driven away.

So.. log in, fight by yourself and die is your only option?

A: If you are afraid of fighting teams in a team game- do not select a faction. Just go solo-queue. (CW is "opt-in" with faction selection.)
B: If you are afraid of being beaten by better players- quit online PvP gaming. Every game has teams that have much better players that win most of the time.
C: If you are determined to have a faction TAG, but do not want to participate in direct CW battles... just do not accept the invite to "defense."


I am trying to think of how you would make it work otherwise with this system..

(It is not my preferred system, but it is not a terrible one.)

[Zeece]

Totally missed my point.. games should be INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE... They should be fun for ALL players... not some club that is only fun for the elite.

Its called good game design.

[Asmudius Heng]

I do not think anyone really has a problem with organised 12 mans being hard to beat. There are larger issues to consider is all I am talking about.

It is just making sure that disparate groups quickly form defences without being a jumbled mess basically.

However there is another aspect that has not been explained which is about logistics.

I do not mind being beaten by a kick ass side .... but if we go down swinging and make them pay for every inch of ground they take I want to see that represented.

There needs to be a sense of attrition and logistics.

If a team takes a planet but it cost them a LOT of mechs doing so then this should blunt their attack. They need to send more backup etc.

Otherwise once people start getting rolled the will just give up, rather than continue fighting to take down just one more mech etc.

This would help less organised groups feel like they are at least making an impact on CW by putting up a spirited defence and slowing the advance of what might be a very skilled and powerful faction until an organised push back can be done.

1. Narrow the gap preparation and comms in game to hep smaller groups form up fast and effectively.
2. Put in a logistics system SEPERATE from cbills.

This would make games more about winning based on skill and teamwork, but would allow a series of battles to have meaning win or lose rather than a binary outcome.

Anyone who has played a complex planetary league like NBT in MW4 knows this.

My unit for instance attacked a well defended planet owned by FWL with a smaller force. We were a more organised and trained team than FWL at this point and were probably too cocky.
FWL played a game of attrition well. They lost nearly ever battle but they made us pay with each one and our forces dwindled.
We had a chance to win the planet early on but we lost that one and it spelled our downfall as we never got back to the final attack since our force was mostly gone.

That planetary assault was MEANINGFUL for FWL and Jurai. The lost the battles but won the war basically because there was a system of logistics that gave meaning and outcomes to close losses.

This is fun too. The plucky casuals can compete in CW and even if they get crushed they can see some outcomes from their battles rather than just losing 3 in a row then half the people rage quit out of frustration.

We want MORE players enjoying CW in different ways. Hell I would love to see 4 man skirmishes and 8 man engagements happening too in CW that add small amounts of additional support to a man assault for instance. There are so many ways to expand CW to be inclusive for most levels of players.

Let the 12 mans dominate, but let each loss have meaning.

[Brody319]

Add an in game mic system and this problem vanishes.

[-Natural Selection-]

And why the hell do you think some people/groups are using this time to build their ranks and organization? In a time where you can form a 2-10/12 man and work your way up.

Maybe instead of some doing nothing but complaining about groups, look ahead as to why they are doing it....

[Livewyr]

Zeece, on 30 September 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

Totally missed my point.. games should be INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE... They should be fun for ALL players... not some club that is only fun for the elite.

Its called good game design.

The game is very much inclusive.. (in fact, more inclusive than the WoT's Clan Wars)

The complaint is "I am going to get stomped, oh noes." You cannot be included in a PVP environment, and be immune from ever getting stomped.

What would you have them do? I am curious. (And think about your response.)

[Asmudius Heng]

Check my last post.

It is not about preventing being beaten, but providing a way to narrow the gap in communication systems and on the fly organisation while making sure that even a loss can be meaningful in the context of the war for the Inner Sphere.

No one likes to lose, but if you might be able to force a phyrric victory, or know you have blunted an attack to help you faction people will not just quit trying. If you get rolled 12-0 even if there was the systems I desire then that's just too bad - suck it up and practice more.

[Mystere]

Zeece, on 30 September 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

Its called good game design.

I keep hearing this line all the time. And so I may ask: How many here are real high-level (and preferably high £¥€$) game designers? Not programmers. Not graphic artists. Not QA. Not wannabes.

[Asmudius Heng]

I do not need to be a high level paid programmer to see that the user interface of MWO and the mechlab especially is a horrible mess because I have experience using well designed user interfaces over many years.

I am not a game designer but I have been a gamer since I was 12 year old or something and i have seen good and bad game design.

Does that mean I, or anyone else is going to have the best opinion on interface design or game design? No, but it does make the amateur opinion have some level of understanding of core theory practice and have worth.

Insinuating that people they are not allowed to have an opinion on good design because the are not professionals being paid to do it is extremely short sighted. It also leads to people like say .... developers not LISTENING to their customers because they feel above them and infallible.

Debate the argument not the credentials.

[CocoaJin]

Solution:
Make more 12-man teams.

[KamikazeRat]

so a well practiced, tight knit, 12 man group with communication is going to win over a hodge-podge...ya don't say....

the answer to this....join a well practiced, tight knit, 12 man group and get communications. done....find a unit that is fairly active and pulling out at least 2 lances when needed is no big deal during "peak" times,

also, it seems like there will be a planet that is contested, and there will be an attacker queue and a defender queue....i think they did away with the whole "this team attacks and you have 2 mins to respond thing" so, 12 mans and pugs will likely be on both sides of the battle, hopefully paired up in some sort of balanced fasion.

also...why don't we wait until this actually....happens....to decide if this is worth argueing over.

Edited by KamikazeRat, 30 September 2014 - 04:38 PM.