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Why 12-Mans Will Dominate Cw


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#1 Chemie

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 03:34 AM

There will be 2 types of games:

1. organized 12-man attack or defend and usually go against random pug teams. The outcome will be well known. The organized team can take an organized deck. Clans could field 6 timberwolfs and 6 direwolfs while the pugs take "whatever". ELO or not, the outcome is known.

Also, I suspect attackers will be at the advanced because of the 30 second thing so they will more likely be against pug teams while the defenders will be 50/50 against pugs team as attackers (since even a 2 man can attack and get backfilled).

2. Or the games will be random pug teams vs random pug teams. Outcome is 50/50

In short, ELO will be better matched because of dropdeck but it is just today's 12-man queue with planets.

So attackers will usually win the planets (unless the map design favors defenders heavily).

#2 Triordinant

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 03:45 AM

According to PGI, there will be no Elo system for CW.

#3 meteorol

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 03:48 AM

Sure. Big premades have been dominating the game since it was released. Why would that change with CW? The only thing which could prevent that are split queues for 12 mans (which we had) or a MM that matches 12v12 in a reliable way (which we will probably never get)

Edited by meteorol, 30 September 2014 - 03:49 AM.


#4 RockmachinE

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 03:52 AM

Water is wet.

I don't see the problem. In ANY multiplayer game in history organized teams had an edge, kicked ass and generally won against a disorganized crowd. That's the perk of investing time and energy into forming a group, organizing it, communicating properly, practicing and playing together.

And I'm a solo player.

What exactly do you guys keep trying say when you point this out? When is your standard of "fairness" met? I guess you were the people who got trophies for participation and nobody won when you did sports at school?

Edited by Louis Brofist, 30 September 2014 - 03:54 AM.


#5 kapusta11

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 03:54 AM

Whining about organized groups in team based game. Logic level over 9000.

#6 627

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:00 AM

the only game I know where an organized group has little impact on the battle is planetside2 and that's only because of the zerg rush mentality.

In every other game you have the advantage with a group, be it CoD or Battlefield or WOT or whatever. MWO is not different here.

#7 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:04 AM

The only way this will change.

1. VOIP to help multiple groups on seperate comms communicate in game
2. Better in game communication (commo-rose etc)
3. Better in game Looking For Group functions within factions
4. A better system on how to respond to attacks
5. Defender bonuses

There are ways to close the gaps, but overall planets will change hands pretty frequenty i think because different groups of varying skill levels will be on at different times etc

The inherent advantages of a 12 mans is better communication and pre-batle planning - these two things needs to be addressed for the fill in groups who defend.

#8 Tristan Winter

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:04 AM

Organized groups should not be allowed to participate in Community Warfare. It should only be random groups, and matchmaker should ensure a 50% of victory for every battle. This will hopefully result in a galaxy map that never changes, because every 100 battles on any given planet will be 50 victories for the attackers and 50 victories for the defenders.

If any planet actually changes hands in Community Warfare, it just means that matchmaker isn't working. And then... there will be hell to pay!

Mmmm... dat status quo. Delicious.

#9 RockmachinE

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:09 AM

View PostNicolai Kabrinsky, on 30 September 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

Organized groups should not be allowed to participate in Community Warfare. It should only be random groups, and matchmaker should ensure a 50% of victory for every battle. This will hopefully result in a galaxy map that never changes, because every 100 battles on any given planet will be 50 victories for the attackers and 50 victories for the defenders.

If any planet actually changes hands in Community Warfare, it just means that matchmaker isn't working. And then... there will be hell to pay!

Mmmm... dat status quo. Delicious.


I agree, where can I sign your petition?

#10 Sirius Drake

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:13 AM

Well, this IS A TEAM GAME you know.
So, yes, you are 100% right.

#11 Sirius Drake

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:16 AM

View PostAsmudius Heng, on 30 September 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

5. Defender bonuses

The inherent advantages of a 12 mans is better communication and pre-batle planning - these two things needs to be addressed for the fill in groups who defend.


What the....did you just say "Teams are OP, nurf Teams!!!"?
Are. You. Serious?
You want a SYSTE MSIDE software solution instead of getting up and organize yourselfs?

Thats just wow. I am out of words.

#12 Grey Black

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:19 AM

... I hereby nominate this post for the "No [REDACTED] Sherlock" awards. I feel the poster's ability to state the obvious should be awarded for his/her insight and reasoning skills.

#13 Flapdrol

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:21 AM

I'd hope for something like supply shortages as a group fights further and further from the home system, ammo getting scarce, assault mech killed? here's a medium replacement. Having to refit mechs before the next battle, with salvaged parts, that sorta thing.

#14 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:22 AM

View PostSirius Drake, on 30 September 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

What the....did you just say "Teams are OP, nurf Teams!!!"?
Are. You. Serious?
You want a SYSTE MSIDE software solution instead of getting up and organize yourselfs?

Thats just wow. I am out of words.


No.

I said that the way CW is looking an organised 12 man team gets inherent advantages because of the way things work not because they are a team.

a 12 man team can launch an attack which means they can sit down, create an organised drop deck, all get on teamspeak and then its all systems go.

The defenders get 2 minutes to grab whoever is available to for a quick team to then try to repel the invaders.

This means that the 12 man attackers have a large advantage that has nothing to do with teamwork, but everything to do with preparation and communications systems.

And yes the CW SYSTEM needs to have the functionality needed to allow the defenders to have a similar advantage in communications and preparation otherwise the outcome is less to do with skill and teamwork and more about the pre battle meta which only one side truly has.

So ... maybe you need to reconsider what you said and read a little more clearly.

#15 NeoCodex

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:27 AM

Cosidering this for a winner whining thread of the month.

#16 Hoax415

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:33 AM

You really need to go re-read the latest CW update.

The attackers can only be premade 12-man teams thing is completely gone. Now attacking teams and defending teams can be ad-hoc pick up groups. At this time however there is no plan to protect anyone from 12-man groups. They have a license to stomp you if you are "playing casual" in your 2-man and not really working w/ the teammates you are assigned.

View PostRuss Bullock, on 26 September 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

But to be clear CW will be a more hard core role playing mode - the Queue's for planetary conquest will be fairly punishing. I mean ELO will not be taken into account and if an organized 12 man is attacking a planet - 12 random solo players lining up to defend is likely not going to be a successful defense.

Most certainly the point of CW is for Factions and Units to fight for each other - everyone can participate but solo players should not expect the same Solo Queue nicety that exists in public play to exist in CW.

CW is a very specific choice to participate - Absolutely everyone can play in all aspects of Attack and Defend but yes it's best to get together in a unit, practice strategies with your Dropships and play as a unit.


You are 100% right about the organized drop deck though. 12-mans will be able to build a coherent strategy if they want/can with their mech choices. It could a little worse for solo players if the 240-tonnage plan is in since that opens up A TON more team building options for organized groups. Afterall if its 1/1/1/1 everyone knows what the best mechs to bring are:
-ECM spider, Jenner, Firestarter or special mention RVN-3L
-Shawk or Griffin
-Jager or Phract
- DDC, Banshee, BH, Misery or Stalker

The 2 minutes thing is as far as we know gone. That was for official defender units back when each planet had a player unit that had signed on to be the primary defense force. That entire system was scrapped in the last two weeks. Now each planet just has 2 queues: attacker and defender for anyone of appropriate faction in any size drop (1-12 players). In fact its conceivable at if they implement the latest design goals Paul posted that even ad-hoc groups will get some chance to talk to eachother and maybe organize themselves on a community or faction TS because if you are a 2-man you will get automatically placed into a team window (which may have chat?) with other solos/groups until you guys form 12 and then you can drop.

If anyone needs to read more carefully its you, you are way behind on your information.

Edited by Hoax415, 30 September 2014 - 04:38 AM.


#17 Zeece

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:34 AM

View PostAsmudius Heng, on 30 September 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:


The defenders get 2 minutes to grab whoever is available to for a quick team to then try to repel the invaders.

This means that the 12 man attackers have a large advantage that has nothing to do with teamwork, but everything to do with preparation and communications systems.


This works under the assumption that there won't be 12man teams that wont be sitting and waiting to react to attacks.

I know the Skye Rangers will have multiple 12man teams that will be attacking and defending during windows. The attacks are going to be coming so hot and heavy that 12man defend teams can organize, form up and simple click defend as soon as the alert goes out.

#18 SgtKinCaiD

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:34 AM

View PostChemie, on 30 September 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

Clans could field 6 timberwolfs and 6 direwolfs while the pugs take "whatever".

Huhu, for 12-man group, I think the 4*3 rules will still apply ...

#19 RockmachinE

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:34 AM

This guy just doesn't know when to stop.

Listen, the consensus here is you're being unrealistic. You managed to do something not many people were able to do on this forum:

Your statement united the community on an issue here. Do you realize the of significance of this? Your logic is so completely off, that you managed to unite people who are at each others throats CONSTANTLY under normal circumstances.

Do you not believe its time to sit down and reevaluate your paradigm on this one? I'm being too nice here...

Edited by Louis Brofist, 30 September 2014 - 04:36 AM.


#20 Tristan Winter

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:43 AM

View PostLouis Brofist, on 30 September 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

This guy just doesn't know when to stop.
Listen, the consensus here is you're being unrealistic. You managed to do something not many people were able to do on this forum:
Your statement united the community on an issue here. Do you realize the of significance of this? If this is so, your logic has to be so completely off, that you managed to unite people who are at each others throats CONSTANTLY under normal circumstances.
Do you not believe its time to sit down and reevaluate your paradigm on this one? I'm being too nice here...

To be fair, he only posted once in this thread. So he knew when to stop :)

However, you make a good point. Henceforth, I will call this Brofist's Law.
"If the MWO community can unite and agree on anything, it's only because it's a really terrible idea."

Or rather:
"When consensus among MWO players (cP) increases, the number of negative responses (N) increases exponentially."

If God, Jesus, Mary and Joseph formed an MWO player council, they still wouldn't get more than a 50% approval rating.





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