100 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

Turist0AT, on 30 September 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

No ghost heat?

You would want them buffed on an individual weapon Basis, not just when boated.

Mawai, on 30 September 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

That depends

In the lore (TT), clan tech outclasses all of the IS tech. Weapons, engines, mechs, everything ...

BUT, this isn't TT and never will be. It also is not a single player Mechwarrior video game where you can put 30 IS mechs against a single clan mech and the clan player can still win.

MWO is a multiplayer online game. As a result, the BALANCE between IS mechs and clan mechs matters (unless everyone should be forced to choose clan mechs if they want to win and IS mechs if they want to roleplay).

PGIs design decision in this matter is to TRY to differentiate the tech ... make it different but equal. One of these differences was to make clan damage higher but to make it harder to apply consistently by requiring a longer time on target. More damage, greater skill required, and the opponent has a opportunity to try to avoid the damage by getting out of the way or torso twisting to spread it.

If IS ACs were changed to multi-shell damage over time weapons this would significantly degrade their effectiveness. This might be a good thing since the PP FLD damage can be an issue ... however, it would significantly weaken the IS mech capabilities and balance. There is a reason why Cataphracts and Jagers are usually considered effective IS mechs ... it is due to multiple low heat/reasonable damage ballistics that can deliver all of their damage to a target at one point.

Converting IS AC damage to a damage over time might be good in the long run ... but to balance things out it would probably require a reduction in refire rate as well as some changes to energy weapons .. reducing the IS energy weapon burn time.

IS weapons would do less damage total ... but would apply it over a shorter time frame thus requiring less time on target to deliver that damage.

In any case, the goal is a rough BALANCE overall between clan and IS since otherwise there won't be much of a game.

Very...very true.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 30 September 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

I feel this would seriously gimp the IS mechs.

One of the main reasons why I still play my IS mechs is because of the single shell ACs and shorter burn time on lasers. Removing this feature from IS mechs would pretty much make Gauss rifles the only viable ballistic for them.

I mean, burst fire ACs are fun, but they are not very efficient unless boated...which the Clan mechs are superior at doing.

Of course this is just my opinion as it pertains to my play-style, but I would prefer that IS ACs retain their FLD.

[Mystere]

Blakkstar, on 30 September 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

That's a correct assessment, and a mechanic that I'm ok with to reflect how a skilled Clan warrior can be more effective in combat according to lore. The problem is that's still not a real solution by itself. All it does is make IS tech n00b-friendly and Clan tech deadly in the hands of skilled players. The question then becomes what kind of "balance" do you want: real game balance where the two sides handle differently but equal in the hands of equally skilled players, or the meta balance that reflects the reality of most players not being skilled enough to get the most out of Clan tech?

These are questions that PGI needed to answer before the first Clan mech dropped in a game.

I don't think PGI needs to answer that question. Their IS vs. Clan tests show that to be the case. It's like using crop duster pilots to compare a Rafale to an SU-27. And no, I am not talking about this guy:




(PGI can always chime in and correct me. )

[Bigbacon]

please no....

burst fire sucks.

[1453 R]

Blakkstar, on 30 September 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

That's a correct assessment, and a mechanic that I'm ok with to reflect how a skilled Clan warrior can be more effective in combat according to lore. The problem is that's still not a real solution by itself. All it does is make IS tech n00b-friendly and Clan tech deadly in the hands of skilled players. The question then becomes what kind of "balance" do you want: real game balance where the two sides handle differently but equal in the hands of equally skilled players, or the meta balance that reflects the reality of most players not being skilled enough to get the most out of Clan tech?

These are questions that PGI needed to answer before the first Clan mech dropped in a game.

Not necessarily true. Even if a player is skilled enough to hold the gun on the target properly, the receiving player can also demonstrate skill and awareness by twisting the damage around. Ends up a wash, or in fact still an advantage on the IS side because a skilled attacker against an equally skilled defender still can't place all his damage where he wants it most of the time with a Clan burstgun, whereas doing so with an IS slug gun is pretty straightforward and simple. You can ask most any ultracomp who's worked with Clan tech in practice drops, they'll say the same thing everyone else does - Clan burstfire autocannons are pretty bad. The burst times are just too long. The shotguns are better, or at least feel better, but they're also shotguns and thus nobody likes them.

[Sandpit]

cdlord, on 30 September 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

Let me preface this by stating that I LOVE my HBK-4G with an AC20. I was also on the "don't touch my AC" bandwagon. My opinion has changed somewhat....

I would like to try the scenario where ALL (IS and Clan) ACs operated the same, i.e. burst fire instead of the single shell the IS enjoy now. The Clan advantage would still be with the weight and size (crits) of the ACs, and with more options for UAC and LBX.

There is precedent for this in the Lore and previous Mechwarrior games.

Not saying this is the way we have to go, but I'd like to try it.

part of that problem is you're taking away the ONLY advantage IS weapons have in comparison to clan weapons. Seriously, the ONLY advantage

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 30 September 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

part of that problem is you're taking away the ONLY advantage IS weapons have in comparison to clan weapons. Seriously, the ONLY advantage

Well, pulse lasers.

Which is slightly sad, for both factions.

Edited by Mcgral18, 30 September 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[Metus regem]

Sandpit, on 30 September 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

part of that problem is you're taking away the ONLY advantage IS weapons have in comparison to clan weapons. Seriously, the ONLY advantage

10 damage for 10 heat PPC's...
Normal non ER-lasers....

Most engagements I'm in in MWO are not long range fights, usually knife fights of between 100m to 300m... so range is really a non-issue...

[HashtagComStarWasRight]

cdlord, on 30 September 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

I would like to try the scenario where ALL (IS and Clan) ACs operated the same, i.e. burst fire instead of the single shell the IS enjoy now. The Clan advantage would still be with the weight and size (crits) of the ACs, and with more options for UAC and LBX.

I think this would be a great change.

In fact while we're talking about changes I think the Inner Sphere PPCs should work like cERPPCs (partial damage to hit location, splash damage to adjacent locations). Then they can have their projectile speed upped a bit to compensate.

PPFLD is the bane of the game and making more weapons spread their damage (or giving the targeted player ways to spread the damage) is a good thing.

[Vassago Rain]

No, thank you.

[CocoaJin]

I like that the IS and Clans have different feels and approaches to how they operate...both on a system and tactical level. I'd rather not see that go. I also like that the IS has a weapon system that has an advantage over the Clans in terms of the current engagement environment...let it be, who knows, the tactical environment might change and it no longer be the perk it is.

[Sandpit]

Metus regem, on 30 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

10 damage for 10 heat PPC's...
Normal non ER-lasers....

Most engagements I'm in in MWO are not long range fights, usually knife fights of between 100m to 300m... so range is really a non-issue...

I never said anything about range

LRM no min range
weight
crit slots
boating
etc.

There's a LOT more to advantages than just range or heat

[Bishop Steiner]

cdlord, on 30 September 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Why? They are supposed to be outclassed by clan tech.

concept: FPS game balance.

[aniviron]

While burst fire ACs are a great way to make weapons less powerful, it's also a mixed blessing. Notice how nobody uses clan UACs except Direwolves? That's because clan lasers do the same thing as clan ACs, damage spread over a short duration that can be mitigated by aim drift, twisting, and movement. The difference is that clan lasers do it for half the weight and no ammo.

While the direct damage to a single location aspect of ACs has been problematic in this game in the past, making ACs into crappy lasers is not the answer.

[Kiiyor]

Grrzoot, on 30 September 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

currently i find this is the only advantage the is mechs have against the clans, i would hate to see it go.

This. The Clans flat out do more damage, less accurately (depending on the pilot).

The IS has superior FLD.

Maybe if the incoming quirk pass evens things up, it could be considered, but at the moment the IS survive by unloading lots of quick damage and then cowering in cover. Anything that forces the IS to stare down Clan guns for any extended period of time just increases the Clan superiority gap.

[Prezimonto]

Livewyr, on 30 September 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

This is where having multiple models of weapons would come in.

Luxor 20 has slightly faster RoF and faster projectile speed, but spits out 10 rounds
Pontiac 100 has same rate of fire, same projectile speed, but spits out 2 rounds..
Chemjet has slower rate of fire, and slightly slower projectile speed, but is single shot like what we have now.

Luxor good for Assault- more time on target, faster DPS
Pontiac good for Heavies- less time on target and easier concentrated damage
Chemjet good for mediums as a strike tool.

Same could be applied with individual weapon quirks with just about every kind of weapon.

(Some miissile could fly faster for a lower RoF)
(Some lasers could have a lopsided damage delivery: 25% of the damage FLD, then 75% burn afterward, things like that)
(PPCs could exchange RoF for faster projectiles)
(Gauss have slower RoF for less chance of exploding when destroyed)


There is a whole level of complex here that PGI can exploit to make the game further customizable and fit role warfare even better than just different Weight classes

I'd love to see this implemented.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'd love to have more Dakka with my IS mechs, finally was able to get my hands on the DWF's for some Clan dakka.

[Ultimax]

aniviron, on 30 September 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

While burst fire ACs are a great way to make weapons less powerful, it's also a mixed blessing. Notice how nobody uses clan UACs except Direwolves? That's because clan lasers do the same thing as clan ACs, damage spread over a short duration that can be mitigated by aim drift, twisting, and movement. The difference is that clan lasers do it for half the weight and no ammo.

While the direct damage to a single location aspect of ACs has been problematic in this game in the past, making ACs into crappy lasers is not the answer.

Well said.

I'd really rather not see my IS mechs have their ACs reduced to trash.

[Kassatsu]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 September 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

concept: FPS game balance.

I thought this was supposed to be a Battletech mechwarrior simulation game. Wasn't their tagline originally "the thinking man's shooter"?

So much for that.

Might as well just break down early and give every mech zero heat unlimited ammo AC20s and strip all of the armor off while standardizing hitboxes and speeds. It's already headed towards becoming a twitch shooter. Now we just need ironsights and aim assist.

Edited by Kassatsu, 30 September 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[HashtagComStarWasRight]

Ultimatum X, on 30 September 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

I'd really rather not see my IS mechs have their ACs reduced to trash.

Except nobody has suggested that this be done. Merely that IS ACs fire in bursts like Clan ACs. Same damage, still able to put it all in one place. If you're good enough.