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Pgi You Realize That Nova And Summoner Pilots Aren't Looking For Fairness Right?


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#41 Training Instructor

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:12 AM

I bought a Summoner for cbills. I have to say I really like the mech...until I try to actually use all five jumpjets. They feel about as effective as .5 tons of jumpjets on my kitfox.

I can't climb much, all I can do is hang at low altitude longer in a brawl. Useful to be sure, but moving slowly through the air is really 4 tons more useful than what I'd get with 1 jumpjet and four more tons of pod space? Not really.

Let's be real here. The big reason the Stormcrow and T-wolf are the big winners among the clan mechs is the inclusion of ES/FF for max weight savings, along with a low tonnage amount of hardwired equipment. The Dire Wolf is slow, but has massive internal space and enough weight to mount almost anything. Almost all of the wave 2 mechs suffer from something or another.


How about the IS mechs stop getting to remove all of their stock jumpjets except the one that is necessary for getting over speedbumps and improving turning speed? How about Jenners and Firestarters not having such huge engine caps to go along with massive numbers of effective, low-tonnage energy weapons and jumpjets?

Edited by Training Instructor, 01 October 2014 - 11:16 AM.


#42 BARBAR0SSA

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:14 AM

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 01 October 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

If you are mounting any ballistic larger than MGs, there is a good chance you are doing it wrong. The missile hardpoints would help the Nova, but wouldn't save it. The Nova was meant to boat small direct fire weapons thus why it was cursed/graced with Standard armor and Standard internals (gotta have room for all those DHS). Thanks to all the nerfs to Clan lasers and Ghost Heat though, the Nova was bound to be bad. Now if they could solve the boating problem without Ghost Heat and unnerf at least ERSL, the Nova could have a niche. As it stands though, its niche is just being one of those mechs that you laugh at when you see.


What? The gauss is part of its variant C.
The C configuration of the Nova has a powerful Gauss Rifle as its primary weapon, allowing it to keep enemies at arm's reach. For protection at close ranges, the Nova C has a highly accurate Small Pulse Laser and an SRM 4.

I'd love to toss an LBX20 or Gauss on a nova with SL's
I'm assuming it has had something different done to it, maybe JJs aren't locked etc.

Edited by shad0w4life, 01 October 2014 - 11:16 AM.


#43 Reno Blade

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:16 AM

The explained change is a pretty good decision.
It will "nerf" the TW a bit and the JJ buffs will make a 5+ JJ mech very agile.

I don't know what you guys do with your summis, but my JJets push me pretty high and pretty fast. It feels great, nearly as nimble as a medium mech.
And still heavies should not be equal to medium mechs with same number of JJs.

#44 Bront

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:20 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 01 October 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

because most people are looking for actual balance, not "fairness", and balance can be addressed in a number of ways, the best by NOT cookie cutting everything?
My question is this.

Do you think hardlocking JJs into any pod that has JJs in it is fair? (Honest question, I'm on the fence)

This effects the Timberwolf S and Kitfox S, and you could argue it hits the Kitfox more (since it's JJ legs have a reduced turning radius and force you to put gear elsewhere in the mech), and hits the Timberwolf oddly (hardlocking 1 JJ in the CT, and 2 in each torso, It means if you only want 1 JJ, you take the S CT, if you want 2/4 JJ, you take any other CT and the S L/RT. You've also limited pod space in the mech that can in theory take an LRM20 and an LRM15 in each torso, it now won't be able to).

I'm not sure if that's balanced really or not, or who it hits harder.

View PostFupDup, on 01 October 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

The reason that JJs are an "issue" right now is because they're very very badly designed. Most of the benefit seems to come from the first few (1-3) jets, and the rest aren't really that effective. And that should change. I'd suggest a linear scale of X number of jets = X effectiveness. So, 1 jet would be X power. 2 jet would be 2X power. 5 jets would be 5X power, and so on. Mechs who get them hardwired to the base config wouldn't be cursed by their hardwired jets if Jump Jets actually functioned in a sensible way.


Um, that's how they do work now. They just killed the thrust in general.

#45 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:23 AM

View Postshad0w4life, on 01 October 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:


What? The gauss is part of its variant C.
The C configuration of the Nova has a powerful Gauss Rifle as its primary weapon, allowing it to keep enemies at arm's reach. For protection at close ranges, the Nova C has a highly accurate Small Pulse Laser and an SRM 4.

I'd love to toss an LBX20 or Gauss on a nova with SL's

I know it is part of the C, but a majority of its variant were poorly optimized for anything (B-D are just bad), let alone for MWO, thus why you either used the Prime (great for duels or lopsided scenarios) or the S (BV balanced forces). The Nova has plenty of free space and low free tonnage much like light mechs so they most effective weapons for them also apply to the Nova. Mounting a Gauss Rifle or LBX20 means 3/4 of your free space is taken up by a weapon with no ammo, it doesn't leave room for any other weapons.....

Once ATMs, Heavy Lasers, and HAG rifles were added though, the Nova gets some better variety (E, F, and H are all pretty decent) even if they aren't completely optimized.

#46 CocoaJin

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:29 AM

I believe I saw JJs are getting an eventual dev pass. If so, the biggest shortcoming with respect to having fixed JJs should be resolved. No need to starting re-working builds, balance and mechanics if they can just re-do JJs into something viable.

#47 1453 R

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:33 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 01 October 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

I don't like Clan Omni construction rules. Piranha, please throw them away completely and break Clan/IS inter-faction balancing wide open so I don't have to deal with Omni construction limitations messing with my fantasy builds anymore.


Summarized for brevity.

In response: No. Hardwired equipment is hardwired equipment is hardwired equipment. For the same reason that people don't get to rip the Flamer out of the Adder, or the Active Probe out of the Mist Lynx, or five of those blasted heat sinks out of the Warhawk, you don't get to rip the jump jets out of your Nova. There's a very good reason for it, regardless of how much you may or may not like that reason.

Frankly I don't even like the fixed jets solution for the S variants on the Wolf and the Fox. The fixed jump jets on the Summoner and the Nova should be fixed by making jump jets useful, not by breaking omni construction rules or fixing those jets in place on variants wherein they shouldn't be fixed.

#48 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:40 AM

View PostBront, on 01 October 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

My question is this.

Do you think hardlocking JJs into any pod that has JJs in it is fair? (Honest question, I'm on the fence)

This effects the Timberwolf S and Kitfox S, and you could argue it hits the Kitfox more (since it's JJ legs have a reduced turning radius and force you to put gear elsewhere in the mech), and hits the Timberwolf oddly (hardlocking 1 JJ in the CT, and 2 in each torso, It means if you only want 1 JJ, you take the S CT, if you want 2/4 JJ, you take any other CT and the S L/RT. You've also limited pod space in the mech that can in theory take an LRM20 and an LRM15 in each torso, it now won't be able to).

I'm not sure if that's balanced really or not, or who it hits harder.



Um, that's how they do work now. They just killed the thrust in general.

I had proposed many ideas I feel would have been better answers, but barring those (and possible reasons "big picture" I might have missed) this is certainly better than the status quo.

TBH I always hated the 1-2 JJ builds and felt they were an overlooked exploit, so I'm glad that they are being addressed in total. But if my Mist Lynx is forced to carry the full complement, and such, why shouldn't the KitFox, which is STILL a superior overall chassis?

As for the TWolf, it removes a few ridiculously OP builds, and it mighty nerfs on variant of the most blatantly OP mech in the game to being only slightly better than every other heavy available.

So while not perfect, I don't how it is not "fair" looking at the results.

#49 Bront

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:49 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 01 October 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

I had proposed many ideas I feel would have been better answers, but barring those (and possible reasons "big picture" I might have missed) this is certainly better than the status quo.

TBH I always hated the 1-2 JJ builds and felt they were an overlooked exploit, so I'm glad that they are being addressed in total. But if my Mist Lynx is forced to carry the full complement, and such, why shouldn't the KitFox, which is STILL a superior overall chassis?

As for the TWolf, it removes a few ridiculously OP builds, and it mighty nerfs on variant of the most blatantly OP mech in the game to being only slightly better than every other heavy available.

So while not perfect, I don't how it is not "fair" looking at the results.

The Kit fox torsos are only 1 JJ each, so it doesn't ruin much for that mech other than mechs that used the S torsos for MG's only (as the S builds are the only ones with any Torso mounted weapons on the Kit Fox).

And noting that, I guess it does mean it doesn't hit the Kit-Fox hard (other than making the S's legs undesirable unless you want max JJs)

#50 FupDup

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 12:57 PM

View PostBront, on 01 October 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Um, that's how they do work now. They just killed the thrust in general.

They certainly don't feel that way. There's a lot of people who still run only 1-2 on their mechs, even "competitive" players. I tend to run with just 3 on my mediums.

#51 Bront

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 01:01 PM

View PostFupDup, on 01 October 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

They certainly don't feel that way. There's a lot of people who still run only 1-2 on their mechs, even "competitive" players. I tend to run with just 3 on my mediums.

That's more because they still top out pathetically low. I can tell a difference btween 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, but it depends on the mech. A victor with 4 now has the lift a light did with 2, but shortened burn time still makes it hard to get anywhere.

It also doesn't help that they work differently depending on the wieght class.
Class, Tonnage, Turn Rate, Upward Thrust, Mech Weight Range
JUMP JETS - CLASS I 2  4.10  33.00  90t - 200t
JUMP JETS - CLASS II 1  4.10  68.00  80t - 90t
JUMP JETS - CLASS III 1  4.10  45.00  60t - 80t
JUMP JETS - CLASS IV 0.5  4.10  45.00  40t - 60t
JUMP JETS - CLASS V 0.5  4.10  37.00  20t - 40t


So, 3 Class II JJs provide more lift than 4 of any other class (in the case of the Highlander's JJ, they'd need 6 JJs to get the same thrust as 3 Victor JJs)

Edited by Bront, 01 October 2014 - 01:05 PM.


#52 Jonathan Paine

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 02:33 PM

View PostKain Thul, on 01 October 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:



People like you bring down the community for everyone.


I'd argue that people who go out and troll with no actual argument regarding the topic or its greater setting are the ones who bring down the community.

#53 Kain Demos

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 02:38 PM

View PostJonathan Paine, on 01 October 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:


I'd argue that people who go out and troll with no actual argument regarding the topic or its greater setting are the ones who bring down the community.


Anyone that comes on here and ASKS for nerfs for no other reason than "I like these 'mechs more even though they are lighter in the weight class" clearly is not doing anything constructive.

#54 KhanCipher

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 03:06 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 01 October 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

As for the TWolf, it removes a few ridiculously OP builds, and it mighty nerfs on variant of the most blatantly OP mech in the game to being only slightly better than every other heavy available.


The TimberTart looks like it won't be hurt by this change, the LaserVomit Timber looks to be not hurt by this as well, and the SplatTimber doesn't seem to be hurt by this either. So if i may ask, what "ridiculously OP" builds was this change suppose to stop? Because it currently looks like the only builds it stops dead in the water is quad ALRM15s and other suboptimal builds.

#55 Kain Demos

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 03:19 PM

View PostKhanCipher, on 01 October 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:


The TimberTart looks like it won't be hurt by this change, the LaserVomit Timber looks to be not hurt by this as well, and the SplatTimber doesn't seem to be hurt by this either. So if i may ask, what "ridiculously OP" builds was this change suppose to stop? Because it currently looks like the only builds it stops dead in the water is quad ALRM15s and other suboptimal builds.


They look hurt to me--the jump jets being stuck on there take tonnage away from what used to be ammo, armor or heat sinks.

The SplatDog is much better offensively than that build there anyway. If I was going to boat SRMs I wouldn't do it in the TImberwolf.

Edited by Kain Thul, 01 October 2014 - 03:19 PM.


#56 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 03:22 PM

View PostTraining Instructor, on 01 October 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:


Let's be real here. The big reason the Stormcrow and T-wolf are the big winners among the clan mechs is the inclusion of ES/FF for max weight savings, along with a low tonnage amount of hardwired equipment. The Dire Wolf is slow, but has massive internal space and enough weight to mount almost anything. Almost all of the wave 2 mechs suffer from something or another.



Actually your wrong. Hellbringer doesn't have either Endo or FF and even after maxing armor it will still have 26.5 tons of pod space available. Then when you add in the fact is has a very good selection of hard points spread pretty evenly across the mech without having to deal with any critical slots being taken up by FF or Endo and limiting what you can and can't mount in any given section, well you have one hell (pardon the pun) of a mech.

No, the only thing that really holds the Summoner back is lack of hard point options and near useless jump jets.

#57 FupDup

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 03:23 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 01 October 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:


Actually your wrong. Hellbringer doesn't have either Endo or FF and even after maxing armor it will still have 26.5 tons of pod space available. Then when you add in the fact is has a very good selection of hard points spread pretty evenly across the mech without having to deal with any critical slots being taken up by FF or Endo and limiting what you can and can't mount in any given section, well you have one hell (pardon the pun) of a mech.

No, the only thing that really holds the Summoner back is lack of hard point options and near useless jump jets.

The Lelbringer actually gets 23.5 tons of pod space with max armor. You can shave a bit of it to get up to 24 tons.

#58 KhanCipher

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 03:45 PM

View PostKain Thul, on 01 October 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:


They look hurt to me--the jump jets being stuck on there take tonnage away from what used to be ammo, armor or heat sinks.


The TimberTart only uses 1 JJ on it and the timbertart build i linked still only has 1 JJ (wow moving the gauss and an PPC around will totally hurt it... not), the Laservomit Timber is pretty much "oh no i can't use a Mk 6 TC because i have 2 fixed JJs" still nothing changes, the SplatTimber just loses 1 DHS (from 20), and the active probe

Here's the before and after JJ changes for those builds, before being builds i was going to use when i do get the Timber, and after being the same builds with the required changes.
TimberTart Before: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ccd1d3211922a9f
TimberTart After: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3c57be3b2c35d9c
LaserVomit Before: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9d6bfd94ab2df9a
LasterVomit After: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab89047dafc49f8
SplatTimber Before: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...81d58b0eedbcbe2
SplatTimber After: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ff10b5bb2e6efce

Now please tell me how any of these are significantly hurt in any way.

#59 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 07:04 PM

View PostKhanCipher, on 01 October 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:


The TimberTart only uses 1 JJ on it and the timbertart build i linked still only has 1 JJ (wow moving the gauss and an PPC around will totally hurt it... not), the Laservomit Timber is pretty much "oh no i can't use a Mk 6 TC because i have 2 fixed JJs" still nothing changes, the SplatTimber just loses 1 DHS (from 20), and the active probe

Here's the before and after JJ changes for those builds, before being builds i was going to use when i do get the Timber, and after being the same builds with the required changes.
TimberTart Before: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ccd1d3211922a9f
TimberTart After: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3c57be3b2c35d9c
LaserVomit Before: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9d6bfd94ab2df9a
LasterVomit After: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab89047dafc49f8
SplatTimber Before: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...81d58b0eedbcbe2
SplatTimber After: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ff10b5bb2e6efce

Now please tell me how any of these are significantly hurt in any way.

wow, you must not have run that Timbertart lately. 1 JJ gets you jack squat these days, and if you read the october roadmap, soon it will get you even less.

There's a reason that that Poptarts in general are few and far between. Miss the memo?

#60 Ultimax

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 07:15 PM

View PostFupDup, on 01 October 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

The reason that JJs are an "issue" right now is because they're very very badly designed. Most of the benefit seems to come from the first few (1-3) jets, and the rest aren't really that effective. And that should change. I'd suggest a linear scale of X number of jets = X effectiveness. So, 1 jet would be X power. 2 jet would be 2X power. 5 jets would be 5X power, and so on. Mechs who get them hardwired to the base config wouldn't be cursed by their hardwired jets if Jump Jets actually functioned in a sensible way.


I was thinking about this, and I agree on principle.

Practically speaking, it's harder to balance than it looks imo.


Just some thoughts on it.

Do we make it so that 1 JJ does basically nothing, so that in comparison 5+ JJs is now “worth it” in that comparatively speaking the other option of “less than max” is a false option? What about 2 JJs? Should that also be non-viable? Where is the cut off point for basic investment if your only goal is avoid crappy terrain issues and not jump-combat?

Also if we make less than 5 very weak, what happens to mechs that can only slot 2-3? Where is the cutoff point for functionality?

Or do we have more of a gradient scale of usage so that 1 JJ is enough to just clear problem terrain like rocks, and 5 JJs are completely amazing, enough to leap over tall buildings and enemies like an acrobat, having huge tactical and combat advantages? (This is sort of the direction I’d like to see, maybe not so extreme at the high end of 5+)

If we don’t make 5, or 7, or whatever “max” JJs amount amazing then the tonnage investment will always be hard to justify in a game where there is never a MUST HAVE JUMP JETS situation. (Which is good, there should not be must have situations the way the game is currently played). Tonnage is tonnage, and optimized builds are tight. This isn't TT, we don't use stock armor values, almost no one uses SHS, almost everyone who can takes endo, I'm not sure holding to some "must have 5 JJs" rule makes any sense in light of that either.

If we do make them really amazing, are the tonnage costs alone enough to balance them vs. mechs that can’t have any JJs? We have to worry about them too, it's not just "1 JJ user vs. 5 JJ user".




Here's just a rough gradient (I'm spit-balling here)


1 to 2: Clear basic terrain, get up hills quicker - but it requires feathering, not actually leaping over hills.

3 to 4: Able to jump fast and high, can get up the sides of Canyon network fast and with ease - but not so fast they can leap over enemies in combat without a running start.

5+: High end mobility, can leap quickly over buildings on Frozen City from a standing (non-running) jump, can leap over enemies mid-combat with ease.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 October 2014 - 07:22 PM.






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