75 replies to this topic

[White Bear 84]

Xarian, on 01 October 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

One other way to improve them would be to make those fixed, near-tactically useless JJs into fixed, tactically-useful JJs. Which is what they are doing.

^^ This and adding a Nova specific quirk that takes into account its energy hardpoints...

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 01 October 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

I was thinking about this, and I agree on principle.

Practically speaking, it's harder to balance than it looks imo.


Just some thoughts on it.

Do we make it so that 1 JJ does basically nothing, so that in comparison 5+ JJs is now “worth it” in that comparatively speaking the other option of “less than max” is a false option? What about 2 JJs? Should that also be non-viable? Where is the cut off point for basic investment if your only goal is avoid crappy terrain issues and not jump-combat?

Also if we make less than 5 very weak, what happens to mechs that can only slot 2-3? Where is the cutoff point for functionality?

Or do we have more of a gradient scale of usage so that 1 JJ is enough to just clear problem terrain like rocks, and 5 JJs are completely amazing, enough to leap over tall buildings and enemies like an acrobat, having huge tactical and combat advantages? (This is sort of the direction I’d like to see, maybe not so extreme at the high end of 5+)

If we don’t make 5, or 7, or whatever “max” JJs amount amazing then the tonnage investment will always be hard to justify in a game where there is never a MUST HAVE JUMP JETS situation. (Which is good, there should not be must have situations the way the game is currently played). Tonnage is tonnage, and optimized builds are tight. This isn't TT, we don't use stock armor values, almost no one uses SHS, almost everyone who can takes endo, I'm not sure holding to some "must have 5 JJs" rule makes any sense in light of that either.

If we do make them really amazing, are the tonnage costs alone enough to balance them vs. mechs that can’t have any JJs? We have to worry about them too, it's not just "1 JJ user vs. 5 JJ user".

Well, one elephant in the room besides JJs is the slope climbing code. Mechs slowing down when they climb something steep makes sense and should stay, but mechs coming to a complete stop on modest inclines is just silly. Mechs should only outright stop entirely if they try to do something silly like climb a sheer cliff face. Otherwise, they should just get slowed way down. If hill climbing wasn't so ridunkulous, JJs would feel more like a supplementary item rather than an absolute requirement needed to transverse random cars and statues parked in the street.

As for the jets themselves, that might be tricky. I'd lean more towards having 1 jet be fairly meager, as that seems like the lesser evil. It should do something, but not much given the relatively small investment. If we really need to, we can also scale the heat output to be just as linear as the jump thrust/speed/distance/whatever (right now, IIRC, most of the heat comes from the first jet and then any subsequent jets add only a little bit of heat).

No matter what we do, some major PTS usage would be crucial here. JJs that weren't hoverboards would very likely have a deep impact on the game and we'd need to see that before bringing any changes live.

[BARBAR0SSA]

^^

Honestly if we could get it more lore like where it launches you on an arc QUICKLY I'd love it. Add in a bright green targeting circle to the hud, hold down spacebar and get a visual indicator of trajectory AND landing.

[zortesh]

Easy to make the nova decent, just unnerf small lasers lower there heat back to what it was, give them back the damage that was cutoff, leave the range alone....

Nova would be good again in a brawl, offset by the fact it'd have terribad range.

That or just a heat quirk like awesomes have.

[SgtMagor]

I think you missed the point jump jets in their current state are terribad, mechs that are supposed to rely on them for mobility and agility to out maneuver other mechs of superior fire power, speed or tonnage and defeat them, was lost with the lack of performance from the jets. As Summoner pilot since MechWarrior 4, what I want is the performance put back not more weapons...

[Cyborne Elemental]

If/when the Nova gets some kind of Energy perks like we saw given to the Awesome, its going to be a whole new mech, maybe even as powerful as it was initially.
Sure its a glass cannon, but before the heat nerf, you could actually deploy the Prime and default loadouts and still dish out as much as you took.

Summoner, we'll just have to see when the mobility changes to JJ come, not sure it will be enough but at least its progress to getting JJ max jets where they should be.
A torso Omnipod with Energy, even a single hardpoint one would be outstanding, but making the summoner Competitive is going to take alot more than that IMO, without Endo-Steel being part of its build, its never going to be a heavy hitter and far from equal or even close to the Madcat in performance.

Edited by Mister D, 01 October 2014 - 07:42 PM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Remember the JJ changes are UNIVERSAL, they aren't summoner only. Playing it tonight, the JJ change won't fix it at all unless they REALLY add some spring to it, eg enough movement to spread out UAC damage. But this whole brawling improvement? maybe 1 on 1 in an open area like Caustic it would benefit. Otherwise I doubt it will change much at all, it's just under hardpointed.

[CocoaJin]

The more people complain about Novas, the more I want to buy one so I can kick people's ass with it.

[aniviron]

Xarian, on 01 October 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

One other way to improve them would be to make those fixed, near-tactically useless JJs into fixed, tactically-useful JJs. Which is what they are doing. And no, your suggestions aren't solutions. You're just asking for PGI to allow you to turn the Summoner into a slightly-crappier Timber Wolf, and the Nova into a Stormcrow clone.

Pushing the game toward role warfare is not an "insult". It makes it more interesting and more fun, and gives mechs like the Summoner an actual use outside of just being slightly-lighter/worse versions of other mechs.

I wish I could frame this post. It's exactly what the OP fails to consider- there's nothing wrong with having fixed JJs if they're useful. This is the trade that clan mechs make, it's the trade we all knew we'd be making the first day the omni system was posted on these forums. You get extra weapon flexibility in exchange for less equipment flexibility, and that's a reasonable trade as long as none of the equipment is useless. Well, right now JJs aren't that great (far from useless though) and making a mech with maxed JJs useful is exactly what we were given as a premise for how Omnis should work.

It also gives the Nova a considerable advantage in one area over the Stormcrow by giving the Nova the ability to turn rapidly and jump significant distances, whereas removing the JJs from the Nova just makes it a Stormcrow with much worse hitboxes and less weapon hardpoint options. I'd much rather play the game that tries to make the Nova compete with the Stormcrow by giving it advantages and disadvantages rather than making them them same except hitboxes and hardpoints- especially because that's a game the Nova will always lose.

[JDante]

You know, author you create this theme because you dont have Nova? Or clan mechs? This sucks you know? I think in this game, MUST be a mech MUCHs better and much weaker , not OP of cource BUT! without it game is a boring! Its must be a TOP 5 best mechs in random categories, this is normal in a real life too.

[Squirtbox]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 October 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

wow, you must not have run that Timbertart lately. 1 JJ gets you jack squat these days, and if you read the october roadmap, soon it will get you even less.

There's a reason that that Poptarts in general are few and far between. Miss the memo?

I'm with Bishop on this one. My Timbertart doesn't tart anymore The single JJ I have on the build is just to get over stupid rocks.

[Kjudoon]

ALthough it was well stated, the OP still is summed up by saying "these pilots are looking for selfish advantage, not equality with other mechs or pilots". This is the bane of all strongly competitive mindsets.

[Aym]

I think you missed the point that this is to nerf some of the OP chassis, then we'll see how clans balance against IS.

[Thunder Child]

I would just like working Jumpjets. Jumpjets that allow me to travel my jump movement in hexes of lateral distance, and my hex distance in height. Is that too much to ask? I'm fine with five Hard-wired Jets, if it means my Summoner can Apex at 150m, with 150m of ground travel.
Edit: And I'd be fine with crosshair shake during the entire flight. Or being unable to fire while airborne. For me, Jumpjets are about MOVEMENT. Not bouncing on the spot like Tigga with a Sniper Rifle.

Edited by Thunder Child, 01 October 2014 - 10:58 PM.

[The Wakelord]

Viktor Drake, on 01 October 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Instead they are looking for Competitiveness.

Recently you announced that in order to be "fair" you have decide to hard lock or "fix" JJs into all Chassis mounting JJs but you seemed to have really missed the point of the complaints about the fixed Jump Jets on the Summoner and Nova.

The point is that these mechs aren't competitive. In no way shape or form is a Summoner about to compete against a Timber Wolf. In no way shape or form can a Nova compete against a Stormcrow. Neither are even close to being able to do so either.

So what Nova and Summoner pilots are asking for is a way to be competitive. One of the ways they might be competitive is if they can remove the fixed, near tactically useless, JJs from their mechs in order to mount a better weapons profile.

That is what they are looking for, a balancing fix for their sub-optimal mechs, not changes to other mechs that don't address the underlying issue.

I mean honestly, this situation is kind of like the evil headmaster at an orphanage deciding to cut all the children's food portions in half just to be "fair" because one child happened to complain he didn't get as big a portion as the other children one day.

Seriously these types of changes are why you, PGI, have so many in the community turned against you so how about instead of making a change that doesn't even address the issue and will further inflame negativity in the community, you actually come up with a real solution instead?

For example, the Summoner.

Issue with the Summoner is mostly in its lack of hard point options. Adding one omnipod that adds 2 Energy mounts to the left torso and one omnipod that adds 2 missile mounts to the left torso would go a long way to allowing for a better weapons profile and increasing its competitiveness and effectiveness without having to modify its fixed JJs or you could just let them remove them.

Now the Nova.

This one is a tougher nut to crack. The combination of the JJ nerf and laser heat increase has hit this mech hard. What it really needs is for lasers to be reverted back to a more reasonable level of heat but since we know that isn't going to happen there are two things that can be done. First is again adding in additional omnipods that allow for a few missile hard points. This way a Nova pilot could opt to remove several very hot lasers in favor of cooler LRMs or SRMs. The second is adding some positive quirks that allow it to better deal with the heat generated by laser weapons. Finally again you can just allow them to remove the JJs.

Anyway, these unlike the proposed "fixing" of JJs on the Timber Wolf and Kit Fox are actual SOLUTIONS, not some backhanded....well to be honest, insult to the people who are bringing legitimate concerns about the viability of the Summoner and Nova to your attention.

On the JJs, I agree. PGI took a strange stance of "well, the summoner has to have 5, so we have to make JJs really bad for everyone who uses less than 5" rather than "hey, lets give the Summoner a useful quirk"

I know there is a lot of anti-nova sentiment, but I think the nova had a great "punch"/alpha role. It may not be the best, but it gets a good 1-2 punch of its laser-boat and mechs just open up. The stormcrow has an overall better play, but the nova has its niche. ... Unfortunately it rather makes the nova a only-1-build-works kind of mech.

[Chrithu]

My 6 C-MPL Nova is quite competitive. So are the 6 C-ML + UAC 5 and 6 CSL + LB 20-X AC variants.

I dunno what the problem is with grasping that this mech sure has loads of energy hardpoints but in order to pack them full with lasers and use the mech you need to use some heat management. A Hunchback Laserboat isn't any different.

When you play it out smart a Nova can be a fierce glass cannon as far as medium mechs go.