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Pgi You Realize That Nova And Summoner Pilots Aren't Looking For Fairness Right?


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#1 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:04 AM

Instead they are looking for Competitiveness.

Recently you announced that in order to be "fair" you have decide to hard lock or "fix" JJs into all Chassis mounting JJs but you seemed to have really missed the point of the complaints about the fixed Jump Jets on the Summoner and Nova.

The point is that these mechs aren't competitive. In no way shape or form is a Summoner about to compete against a Timber Wolf. In no way shape or form can a Nova compete against a Stormcrow. Neither are even close to being able to do so either.

So what Nova and Summoner pilots are asking for is a way to be competitive. One of the ways they might be competitive is if they can remove the fixed, near tactically useless, JJs from their mechs in order to mount a better weapons profile.

That is what they are looking for, a balancing fix for their sub-optimal mechs, not changes to other mechs that don't address the underlying issue.

I mean honestly, this situation is kind of like the evil headmaster at an orphanage deciding to cut all the children's food portions in half just to be "fair" because one child happened to complain he didn't get as big a portion as the other children one day.

Seriously these types of changes are why you, PGI, have so many in the community turned against you so how about instead of making a change that doesn't even address the issue and will further inflame negativity in the community, you actually come up with a real solution instead?

For example, the Summoner.

Issue with the Summoner is mostly in its lack of hard point options. Adding one omnipod that adds 2 Energy mounts to the left torso and one omnipod that adds 2 missile mounts to the left torso would go a long way to allowing for a better weapons profile and increasing its competitiveness and effectiveness without having to modify its fixed JJs or you could just let them remove them.

Now the Nova.

This one is a tougher nut to crack. The combination of the JJ nerf and laser heat increase has hit this mech hard. What it really needs is for lasers to be reverted back to a more reasonable level of heat but since we know that isn't going to happen there are two things that can be done. First is again adding in additional omnipods that allow for a few missile hard points. This way a Nova pilot could opt to remove several very hot lasers in favor of cooler LRMs or SRMs. The second is adding some positive quirks that allow it to better deal with the heat generated by laser weapons. Finally again you can just allow them to remove the JJs.

Anyway, these unlike the proposed "fixing" of JJs on the Timber Wolf and Kit Fox are actual SOLUTIONS, not some backhanded....well to be honest, insult to the people who are bringing legitimate concerns about the viability of the Summoner and Nova to your attention.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 01 October 2014 - 08:06 AM.


#2 Xarian

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:11 AM

One other way to improve them would be to make those fixed, near-tactically useless JJs into fixed, tactically-useful JJs. Which is what they are doing. And no, your suggestions aren't solutions. You're just asking for PGI to allow you to turn the Summoner into a slightly-crappier Timber Wolf, and the Nova into a Stormcrow clone.

Pushing the game toward role warfare is not an "insult". It makes it more interesting and more fun, and gives mechs like the Summoner an actual use outside of just being slightly-lighter/worse versions of other mechs.

Edited by Xarian, 01 October 2014 - 08:13 AM.


#3 Livewyr

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:12 AM

I suspect when Clan Quirks come around.. they will be SUB-Tier1 and receive quirks in similar fashion to IS mechs.

#4 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:14 AM

Hard-fix JJs into all chassis mounting them?? Where/when did I miss this? Can someone link (unless in command chair, then I can go look, but I admit I haven't trolled there for a while except for one thread I am constantly refreshing).

#5 Kain Demos

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:15 AM

JJ improvements are coming within a month which should help both 'mechs into their roles.

I know everyone likes to ***** about the Nova compared to the Stormcrow but honestly I don't think the gap is as huge as everyone likes to make out. My two loadouts for those 'mechs have similiar firepower:

Nova Prime with S arms: 2 x CERLL 4 x CERML
Stormcrow Prime with head pod removed (for the negative armor quirk) and RT replaced to get back the energy hardpoint: 2 x CLPL 3 x CERML

So the Nova runs one more medium laser but gets burdened with having the longer burn time of the CERLL and additional heat. The tradeoff here is the 50pt alpha which can be repeated a few times (twice without using coolshots) before you need to start alternating fire.

So then you have speed--Stormcrow is 18 kph faster but the Nova has jump jets. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of them because they don't seem very useful now but apparently that is going to change. I'm sure lots of people that like JJs though would gladly give up 18 kph for them though.

For me the thing I notice most in the Nova is its width--man am I easy to hit and I feel like I just fall apart under focus fire. Nothing to be done about that though so you must take advantage of the short height and pilot the 'mech with a firm understanding of the chassis shortcomings.

The Stormcrow is higher up the Medium 'mech food chain anyway with its 5 ton advantage (10 tons if you want to consider the JJs a waste of space/weight).

Edited by Kain Thul, 01 October 2014 - 08:18 AM.


#6 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:16 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 01 October 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Instead they are looking for Competitiveness.

Recently you announced that in order to be "fair" you have decide to hard lock or "fix" JJs into all Chassis mounting JJs but you seemed to have really missed the point of the complaints about the fixed Jump Jets on the Summoner and Nova.

The point is that these mechs aren't competitive. In no way shape or form is a Summoner about to compete against a Timber Wolf. In no way shape or form can a Nova compete against a Stormcrow. Neither are even close to being able to do so either.

So what Nova and Summoner pilots are asking for is a way to be competitive. One of the ways they might be competitive is if they can remove the fixed, near tactically useless, JJs from their mechs in order to mount a better weapons profile.

That is what they are looking for, a balancing fix for their sub-optimal mechs, not changes to other mechs that don't address the underlying issue.

I mean honestly, this situation is kind of like the evil headmaster at an orphanage deciding to cut all the children's food portions in half just to be "fair" because one child happened to complain he didn't get as big a portion as the other children one day.

Seriously these types of changes are why you, PGI, have so many in the community turned against you so how about instead of making a change that doesn't even address the issue and will further inflame negativity in the community, you actually come up with a real solution instead?

For example, the Summoner.

Issue with the Summoner is mostly in its lack of hard point options. Adding one omnipod that adds 2 Energy mounts to the left torso and one omnipod that adds 2 missile mounts to the left torso would go a long way to allowing for a better weapons profile and increasing its competitiveness and effectiveness without having to modify its fixed JJs or you could just let them remove them.

Now the Nova.

This one is a tougher nut to crack. The combination of the JJ nerf and laser heat increase has hit this mech hard. What it really needs is for lasers to be reverted back to a more reasonable level of heat but since we know that isn't going to happen there are two things that can be done. First is again adding in additional omnipods that allow for a few missile hard points. This way a Nova pilot could opt to remove several very hot lasers in favor of cooler LRMs or SRMs. The second is adding some positive quirks that allow it to better deal with the heat generated by laser weapons. Finally again you can just allow them to remove the JJs.

Anyway, these unlike the proposed "fixing" of JJs on the Timber Wolf and Kit Fox are actual SOLUTIONS, not some backhanded....well to be honest, insult to the people who are bringing legitimate concerns about the viability of the Summoner and Nova to your attention.

speak for yourself. Free up the JJs and the Summoner is still considerably second rate to the TW.

Instead, embrace what it is, embrace chassis respective roles and make the Summoner able to turn it's JJs and "role" to it's advantage, with mobility, both JJ and otherwise increases. Better cooldowns, or possibly an internal structure buff representing it's solid, tested no-nonsense nature.

But too often "being competitive" means trying to fit everything into the same cookie cutter. many of use don't care about what is perceived as "competitive". I want the mech to fit my style and the role it was designed for, and then, it will be competitive enough for me.

#7 Kain Demos

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:16 AM

View Postcdlord, on 01 October 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

Hard-fix JJs into all chassis mounting them?? Where/when did I miss this? Can someone link (unless in command chair, then I can go look, but I admit I haven't trolled there for a while except for one thread I am constantly refreshing).


Just clan 'mechs where the prime variant mounts them.

#8 Christof Romulus

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:17 AM

Good thing when community warfare drops the Nova and Summoner will be squaring off against Inner Sphere mechs.

#9 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:21 AM

View PostKain Thul, on 01 October 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:


Just clan 'mechs where the prime variant mounts them.

Whew, thanks. For a minute I thought I'd have to redesign every one of my light mechs...... :)

#10 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:26 AM

View Postcdlord, on 01 October 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Whew, thanks. For a minute I thought I'd have to redesign every one of my light mechs...... :)

No. Any pod with JJs the JJs are now fixed.

"Omnimech Fixed Jump Jet Slots
The current rule for Omnimechs is that slots are set by the Prime variant. For instance, the Prime variant of the Summoner has 5 fixed JJs and this rule is dictated across each variant. We are expanding this rule slightly when it comes specifically to Jump Jets so that the rule is determined by the variant instead. What this can mean, for example, is that the Timber Wolf S variant will come with 5 fixed JJs. This also means that if you are using (again, for example) the Timber Wolf Prime and decide to equip the RT omnipod of the Timber Wolf S you will have 2 fixed Jump Jets and another 2 if you equip the LT omnipod.

This should result in a much more fair relationship between Clan 'Mech variants and chassis."
http://mwomercs.com/...tober-road-map/

a rather good and informative October Roadmap. You should take the time to familiarize yourself with it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 October 2014 - 08:27 AM.


#11 Kain Demos

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:27 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 01 October 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

No. Any pod with JJs the JJs are now fixed.


Yes, OOPS on that one.

I said the way it used to be--they're changing it to this way.

#12 Kain Demos

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:30 AM

I guess I just saw that he was a Davion so his 'mechs wouldn't be affected and got in a rush to deliver misinformation.

#13 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:40 AM

View PostKain Thul, on 01 October 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

I guess I just saw that he was a Davion so his 'mechs wouldn't be affected and got in a rush to deliver misinformation.

I got in a rush to clarify information before I misconstrued it. :)

#14 Spurowny

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:45 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 01 October 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

...In no way shape or form is a Summoner about to compete against a Timber Wolf. In no way shape or form can a Nova compete against a Stormcrow. Neither are even close to being able to do so either.


Hyperbole like this just makes everyone roll their eyes, say "great another cry-baby", and skip the rest of your post.
the TLDR of which is: all the JJs should be removable and give us more omni-pods.

#15 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:46 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 01 October 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

speak for yourself. Free up the JJs and the Summoner is still considerably second rate to the TW.

Instead, embrace what it is, embrace chassis respective roles and make the Summoner able to turn it's JJs and "role" to it's advantage, with mobility, both JJ and otherwise increases. Better cooldowns, or possibly an internal structure buff representing it's solid, tested no-nonsense nature.

But too often "being competitive" means trying to fit everything into the same cookie cutter. many of use don't care about what is perceived as "competitive". I want the mech to fit my style and the role it was designed for, and then, it will be competitive enough for me.


Hey Bish,

I see alot of people are missing the point of the post.

The point is that what they are doing with fixing JJs to mechs like the Timber Wolf and Kit Fox in order to be "fair" to the Nova and Summoner isn't addressing why Nova and Summoner pilots have been complaining about their inability to remove their JJs when the Timber Wolf and Kit Fox can.

My solutions are "quick" fix options because we all know PGI doesn't like to do anything that requires actually hard work when it comes to balancing. For example, I want JJs to be tactically useful by allowing mechs to actually allow for significant height and/or distance while being multi-directional vectorable. This for example would 100% fix the problems with the Nova and the Summoner but no way in hell is PGI going to do this sort of thing. Also I am sure there are a hundred things that"Could" be done but again PGI isn't going to do them.

So we need simple solutions that don't involve making other mechs worse or less versatile just so other mechs don't seem quite as bad as they used to. Basically actually clean up the dirt, don't sweep it under the rug to try to hide it exists.

#16 Mercules

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:51 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 01 October 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

The point is that what they are doing with fixing JJs to mechs like the Timber Wolf and Kit Fox in order to be "fair" to the Nova and Summoner isn't addressing why Nova and Summoner pilots have been complaining about their inability to remove their JJs when the Timber Wolf and Kit Fox can.

My solutions are "quick" fix options because we all know PGI doesn't like to do anything that requires actually hard work when it comes to balancing. For example, I want JJs to be tactically useful by allowing mechs to actually allow for significant height and/or distance while being multi-directional vectorable. This for example would 100% fix the problems with the Nova and the Summoner but no way in hell is PGI going to do this sort of thing. Also I am sure there are a hundred things that"Could" be done but again PGI isn't going to do them.


Um.....

Quote

Jump Jet Thrust
Since the adjustment of JJ thrust, along with fall damage, we have seen 'pop-tarting' gameplay decrease to a much more acceptable level. I think everyone agrees this is a positive step for MWO. However, I think certain 'Mechs, well-represented by the Summoner (who takes 5+ JJ into combat), are not receiving enough of a benefit for taking them into battle. I am going to be making a small adjustment to allow the thrust to increase a little bit faster as you add more JJs. This will make those 'Mechs feel a little more mobile and give more advantage to 'Mechs that dedicate more space to JJ.


ETA: Oct 21st patch.

Edited by Mercules, 01 October 2014 - 08:52 AM.


#17 Redshift2k5

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:55 AM

Slightly nerfing the timberwolf (more tons/slots invested into JJ in a fixed location with small but noticable effect on builds) is just healthy fro the game overall. If the best chassis in the game can also take JJ with no drawbacks, that's not just a small impact. TBR nerfs makes the Summoner less of a waste of space (and to an extent, all the other not-as-good-as-a-TBR-heavies)

Coming to the issue from the opposite side, Summoner specific buffs will help too.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 01 October 2014 - 08:56 AM.


#18 Alistair Winter

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:59 AM

I agree that competitiveness is more important than "fairness". Because "fair" is a strange word to use in this gaming context. But I do think that PGI means to say "for the sake of competitiveness" when they say "fair".

The changes to the TBR-S were intended as a nerf, not as a nod to Summoner pilots.

The Summoner is fundamentally flawed due to it having FF instead of Endo. The hardpoints are not the biggest issue, the biggest issue is lack of space and weight. So they need to focus on the Summoner's strengths and special characteristics, just like they did with the Awesome assault mech.

#19 Kassatsu

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:08 AM

Needs jump jet quirks that turn them into actual jump jets. At least then we can pretend they're working as intended while piloting the two mechs that can actually use them.

Also laser heat reduction, or heat dissipation bonus on the Nova hardpoints, less so on the 6x energy arms, but still there.

Summoner uh... Missile cooldown bonus? I don't know. At the very least it needs jump jets like the Nova does.

EDIT: How about a no ghost heat quirk on the Nova? Trolololol

Edited by Kassatsu, 01 October 2014 - 09:08 AM.


#20 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:08 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 01 October 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

I agree that competitiveness is more important than "fairness". Because "fair" is a strange word to use in this gaming context. But I do think that PGI means to say "for the sake of competitiveness" when they say "fair".

The changes to the TBR-S were intended as a nerf, not as a nod to Summoner pilots.

The Summoner is fundamentally flawed due to it having FF instead of Endo. The hardpoints are not the biggest issue, the biggest issue is lack of space and weight. So they need to focus on the Summoner's strengths and special characteristics, just like they did with the Awesome assault mech.

hence my recent suggestion to Russ about standard Internal Structure Omnis. Since most represent older, tried and true designs, and since Clan Ferro is so much better than IS, why not give Clan Standard IS a slight toughness buff? Much like the RT on the Hunchback received recently? Then at least you get a tradeoff, Endo gives you more tonnage for guns, while Standard is heavier and slightly stronger, less fragile, and makes mechs like the Summoner tougher to disarm in a brawl?


Some, like the DW would probably require less a buff than others, and so a flat percentage might not work, but it's still an unfinished idea, but one I have been toying with.

Imagine the Summoner, as an example, with it's mobility and jumping slightly buffed, maybe some ballistic and non laser cooldowns and a 5-10% buff quirk to it's IS? Now it becomes a rugged, mobile brawler, while still not threatening the TWs role, with it's heavier armor and firepower.





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