100 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Zolaz, on 01 October 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

All Clan weapons are better than IS weapons. All Clan equipment is better than IS. All Clan engines are better than IS. Just because the Adder and the Kitfox are worse than other clan mechs doesnt mean they arent better than IS mechs.

Now, that's just a bold faced lie.

cLRMs, against any AMS are virtually worthless. You NEED to boat twice as many to have any effect.


cACs are completely inferior. Suckoner is worse than Jaegers and CTFs.

[Ultimax]

1453 R, on 01 October 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

All three Timber Wolf chassis are Tier 1, of course, and I'd say the Stormcrow probably qualifies as well, but I refuse to consider the Stormcrow to be comprised of different variants.

I would just count the overall chassis as 1 mech, due to how omni-pods work there really isn't much of a real separation outside of a few special CTs/Heads.

I would say specific builds are different tiers among clan mechs, for example the CUAC spam Dire Wolf is not T1 in my opinion however the Dual Gauss + Massed Lasers or CERPPCs is T1.


Let's look at the overall:

Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf & Storm Crow are all T1 in my opinion.

I'd say Warhawk is probably T2 due to it's build limitations - and that's for the few good builds it has, but it's likely in the same zone as the STK-M, STK-3F, HGN-733C, but possibly straddles T2/3.



Summoner is around T3 IMO.

It's hard to judge as there is only one T2 IS heavy and while the Summoner is better than some of those T3 IS heavies, it's not clearly better than all of them, especially CTF-IM, JM6-DD & S - who can choose to be squishier and bring upwards of 35 to 40 tons of weapons including FLD ballistics or who can run STD engines with short ranged brawl builds like AC 20 + MLAS and be sturdier.


Nova, due strictly to poor physical design for a medium mech, is probably T3 overall, it might have 1 T2 build and it's Jump Jets + raw firepower potential keep it from being lower than T3.

Kit Fox, also probably T3 maybe T4. If you bring ECM + JJs it's T3, if you don't its more like T4.

Adder likely T4 (I think it compares to the Vindicators, which are mediums, but on the borderline).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 October 2014 - 06:16 PM.

[Brody319]

Zolaz, on 01 October 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

All Clan weapons are better than IS weapons. All Clan equipment is better than IS. All Clan engines are better than IS. Just because the Adder and the Kitfox are worse than other clan mechs doesnt mean they arent better than IS mechs.

KitFox will rip you up son. Thing mounts as many weapons as a medium. Just because it isnt fast doesn't mean it isnt a useful light.
People keep trying to plan Clan Lights like, IS lights. This is not how they are meant to be played. Clan lights are escort and fire support. They are fast enough to keep up with assault mechs. Adder has a small profile, easily missed, this lets it be fired over by heavier mechs, and it packs quite a punch. Kit Foxes should be used to escort the heavier mechs who cant mount ECM. It also can mount plenty of weapons to provide fire support to take down targets, finish them, or keep lights away.

Neither of these mechs should be sprinting into combat, they should be helping the fatties get to the battle without missiles opening their face.

[Asyres]

Zolaz, on 01 October 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

All Clan weapons are better than IS weapons. All Clan equipment is better than IS. All Clan engines are better than IS. Just because the Adder and the Kitfox are worse than other clan mechs doesnt mean they arent better than IS mechs.

Autocannons. I'd give my Stormcrow's left mech-nut for a 14t, one shot AC20 - not even an ultra, just a plain old AC20.

Lasers are approaching balance, with clantech trading heat efficiency and burn time for range - though this at least in part because the Clans don't have a significant weight advantage.

The only clear outliers are the Gauss (3t lighter, no drawback) and to some degree missiles (because they weigh half of what the same IS launcher weighs).

Clan XLs remain a significant advantage - and will probably remain one after the upcoming nerf.

All that being said, if you're seriously suggesting that an Adder is better than a Firestarter, I'm not sure what to say to you.

[Alek Ituin]

Mcgral18, on 01 October 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

Now, that's just a bold faced lie.

cLRMs, against any AMS are virtually worthless. You NEED to boat twice as many to have any effect.


cACs are completely inferior. Suckoner is worse than Jaegers and CTFs.

Summoner is actually a very good Mech, people simply don't play it right. You have to run it like an oversized medium, pack full armor, 2x C-ERML, 1x C-AC/10 (3 tons ammo), and either an LRM15 or SRM6. Run flanking maneuvers and poke things at mid range with your AC/10/ERML combo.

I took on three separate Dire Whales in one match with that, and forced all three to run (waddle) for cover rather than continue getting pimp-slapped by my Summoner. The last one came back as I was taking on a Dragon and Mad Dog though... It promptly annihilated me for smacking it so much. With the Loki coming in the Thor should see an uptick in use, they're actually quite good when run together.


Point is: Don't diss the Thor. It's a good Mech, it really is.

[FupDup]

Some mechs are better, some mechs are worse, and some are roughly on-par. Some weapons are better, some weapons are worse, and some are also roughly on-par. Don't generalize, pl0x.

[Mcgral18]

Alek Ituin, on 01 October 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Summoner is actually a very good Mech, people simply don't play it right. You have to run it like an oversized medium, pack full armor, 2x C-ERML, 1x C-AC/10 (3 tons ammo), and either an LRM15 or SRM6. Run flanking maneuvers and poke things at mid range with your AC/10/ERML combo.

I took on three separate Dire Whales in one match with that, and forced all three to run (waddle) for cover rather than continue getting pimp-slapped by my Summoner. The last one came back as I was taking on a Dragon and Mad Dog though... It promptly annihilated me for smacking it so much. With the Loki coming in the Thor should see an uptick in use, they're actually quite good when run together.


Point is: Don't diss the Thor. It's a good Mech, it really is.

That's a nice loadout for a 50 tonner. It's a joke for a 70 tonner.

The Summoner has to compare to Meds, which is just how much of a joke it is when compared to heavies. It doesn't have hardpoints, tonnage, or even good hitboxes.

It's shafted in nearly every way.

[Ultimax]

Alek Ituin, on 01 October 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Summoner is actually a very good Mech, people simply don't play it right. You have to run it like an oversized medium, pack full armor, 2x C-ERML, 1x C-AC/10 (3 tons ammo), and either an LRM15 or SRM6. Run flanking maneuvers and poke things at mid range with your AC/10/ERML combo.

Teams need three heavies worth of firepower to compete with the (ideally) other team's three heavies worth of firepower.


Team's don't really need a 70 ton medium mech with really big hitboxes, and very low arms.


I run Gauss + 4x CERMLAS on mine, it's decent if not stellar - mostly because the arms are mounted so low you can't bring the CERMLAS to bear when trying to ridge hump without exposing all of your upper body.

Some high mounted energy torso hardpoints would be a tremendous boost for this mech.

[Alek Ituin]

Ultimatum X, on 01 October 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Teams need three heavies worth of firepower to compete with the (ideally) other team's three heavies worth of firepower.


Team's don't really need a 70 ton medium mech with really big hitboxes, and very low arms.


I run Gauss + 4x CERMLAS on mine, it's decent if not stellar - mostly because the arms are mounted so low you can't bring the CERMLAS to bear when trying to ridge hump without exposing all of your upper body.

Some high mounted energy torso hardpoints would be a tremendous boost for this mech.

I see. Maybe if teams had more tactical abilities than "point n' click hurr hurr", firepower wouldn't be the decisive factor.

On the other hand, I seem to be doing more than fine with my Summoner. I normally get 2 kills a match because I flank targets and hunt the wounded or slow, and my teams normally win when they don't have to worry about that Jaegerbomb or Dire Whale I just took down with my superior mobility, solid armor, and workable loadout (that lasts longer than a few minutes in combat).

My Summoner also has the build restriction of staying as close to stock as possible. If I really wanted to, I could make a more effective build, but the Summoner will always hinge on its agility being a key factor in its effectiveness. Since folks like you apparently fail to understand how that might actually be more useful than pure firepower, it will always remain sub-par. That's not a personal insult mind you, but rather a criticism on your choice of tactics.

[Ultimax]

Alek Ituin, on 01 October 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

I see. Maybe if teams had more tactical abilities than "point n' click hurr hurr", firepower wouldn't be the decisive factor.

Is it really so hard to come to terms that:

More Fire Power + Tactical Abilities

is better than

Less Fire Power + Tactical Abilities

Or are you really so arrogant to think that the rest of us are derps who "simply don't play it right"?

[Alek Ituin]

Ultimatum X, on 01 October 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

Is it really so hard to come to terms that:

More Fire Power + Tactical Abilities

is better than

Less Fire Power + Tactical Abilities

Or are you really so arrogant to think that the rest of us are derps who "simply don't play it right"?

Actually, if you would read it comes down to:

More Mobility + Moderate Firepower

Is better than

Less Mobility + Loadz a Dakka


Basically all of the greatest tacticians mirror this sentiment, my arrogance is not a factor in my critique of your playstyle. It's Rommel, Sun Tzu, Yi Soon Shin, basically every skirmisher in the American Revolution, the Vietcong, the IJA forces in WWII... You know, all the leaders of numerically inferior forces (or numerically inferior forces) who could demolish (or cause serious damage to) opponents with a 2:1 or even 3:1 advantage using DUNDUNDUN - Mobility.

Dakka aint shiznit if you can't shoot the git that's shootin you. There's a reason we don't just stand in lines and shoot each other in turns anymore (Hint: It's stupid, skirmish warfare is better).


But hey, "this is a game" and "IRL tactics don't apply", right? Or "Dakka iz da bestest ya git"? How about "You don't even know scrublet! UGNGHGNGUFNGFGFKGNHFKGNHF" or the ever present "I'M COMPETITIVE L33T PRO AN U RNT SO... NUH UH"?

EDIT: I also love that you jump straight to ad hominem attacks ("You're arrogant!") and provide precious little else to back your position that firepower is the only key variable in the outcome of a battle.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 01 October 2014 - 09:06 PM.

[Coralld]

Only two Clan mechs stand out to be OP, Timberwolf and Storm Crow. First and for most, fix their damn broken hit boxes!! There should be no reason for these mechs to run around with just 2 points of armor in the rear and stack the rest in the front for crazy tanking power. No joke, the only way to do rear damage to these guys is if you are standing directly behind them.
If they do this, the Timberwolf wouldn't be able to tank like a freaking Dire Whale.

[Alek Ituin]

Coralld, on 01 October 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

No joke, the only way to do rear damage to these guys is if you are standing directly behind them.

Best line ever.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Coralld, on 01 October 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

Only two Clan mechs stand out to be OP, Timberwolf and Storm Crow. First and for most, fix their damn broken hit boxes!! There should be no reason for these mechs to run around with just 2 points of armor in the rear and stack the rest in the front for crazy tanking power. No joke, the only way to do rear damage to these guys is if you are standing directly behind them.
If they do this, the Timberwolf wouldn't be able to tank like a freaking Dire Whale.

Mad Dog also has this issue.

Edited by Kevjack, 01 October 2014 - 09:22 PM.

[Mystere]

Asyres, on 01 October 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

The only clear outliers are the Gauss (3t lighter, no drawback) and to some degree missiles (because they weigh half of what the same IS launcher weighs).

Clan weapon weights and critical slots should really not be considered part of the balance equation. That is because making them to be the same as their IS equivalents breaks all stock Clan mechs. They should be treated as design constraints.

[Mystere]

Alek Ituin, on 01 October 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

I see. Maybe if teams had more tactical abilities than "point n' click hurr hurr", firepower wouldn't be the decisive factor.

On the other hand, I seem to be doing more than fine with my Summoner. I normally get 2 kills a match because I flank targets and hunt the wounded or slow, and my teams normally win when they don't have to worry about that Jaegerbomb or Dire Whale I just took down with my superior mobility, solid armor, and workable loadout (that lasts longer than a few minutes in combat).

My Summoner also has the build restriction of staying as close to stock as possible. If I really wanted to, I could make a more effective build, but the Summoner will always hinge on its agility being a key factor in its effectiveness. Since folks like you apparently fail to understand how that might actually be more useful than pure firepower, it will always remain sub-par. That's not a personal insult mind you, but rather a criticism on your choice of tactics.

Is this in the "Steering Wheel Underhive" or "Try-hard" queue? ... <runs for the hills>

Edited by Mystere, 01 October 2014 - 09:30 PM.

[Alek Ituin]

Mystere, on 01 October 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

Is this in the "Steering Wheel Underhive" or "Try-hard" queue? ... <runs for the hills>

[JDante]

i MUST defend this situation! Now i have't any clan mech BUT they must be better, at all. Pilots are must tried to take all "clan technologies" or "LOST IS tech" what equal or better than clan. DOnt tries BALANCED all mech, this is stupid and kill interest to a game, it must be strongest and best mech.

[Alienized]

Ultimatum X, on 01 October 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Teams need three heavies worth of firepower to compete with the (ideally) other team's three heavies worth of firepower.


Team's don't really need a 70 ton medium mech with really big hitboxes, and very low arms.

what would all the quickdraws and dragons say about this....

[Cheb44]

I wonder whats going to happen when everyone gets what they want and the clans are made to be equal with IS, and then they start releasing IS tech that competes with the clans and have to nerf that to the level of inferior IS tech.

They should have started this game later in lore if this is going to be solely about balance. You guys that want this to be all equal need to chill and let this game progress lore wise like it was meant too, I believe PGI has done more than they should have already to bring the clans down a notch. As it is now you can't field historical clan builds with any success. yeesh.