14 replies to this topic

[-VooDoo-]

I need a question answered from someone who knows more than I do with how this game functions. Just curious about some of the equations with buffs and mods. With multiple items affecting the same mechanic how does the math work out...


Firing reduction of 10% + Firing reduction of 12% as an example...


Do both reductions reduce from the weapons original cool down or does it apply one first and then apply the second after the cool down has already been modified? Because if it's the latter that's not nearly as impactful...


Jazz

[CocoaJin]

I nyow, nyow

Edited by CocoaJin, 01 October 2014 - 10:41 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I haven't looked at this that closely yet, but here's this on cooldowns: weapon-cooldown

I figure that once it's cleaned up, we'll get an update in a Patch Notes or a Command Chair post.

[Lily from animove]

Jazz Hands, on 01 October 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

I need a question answered from someone who knows more than I do with how this game functions. Just curious about some of the equations with buffs and mods. With multiple items affecting the same mechanic how does the math work out...


Firing reduction of 10% + Firing reduction of 12% as an example...


Do both reductions reduce from the weapons original cool down or does it apply one first and then apply the second after the cool down has already been modified? Because if it's the latter that's not nearly as impactful...


Jazz

It is unclear at all.

because it depens how you do the math. many games use them as sum of multipliers compared to the base.

like: +12% and another 10% making 22%. or in math (0,12 +0,1)*basetime. (or for cooldowns it would be 1-0,12-0,1)
differnt is it when you ave stuff like this: first you use one multiplier: 1*0,88= 0,88 andapply that next multiplier on this number. then its 0,88*0,9 making this 0,792. which is then not a whole 22%.

So only PGI knows how its coded and which math applies or even a mix of it.

[Redshift2k5]

Some factors we do know: Sensor range buffs stack but are not cumulative: they all add to the base value but do not compound (two +20% would be 100+20+20=140 not 100+20=120+24=144

I would put my money on pther modificationsquirks to all be additive(stack) and not cumulative.

[levitas]

When I was playing with targeting computers and target info gathering, it seemed additive rather than multiplicative. However, the floor seemed to be a multiple of ping (don't know if it's 1x or 2x).

This and the fact that range buffs are also additive suggests that any given attacking bonus is more likely to be additive than multiplicative.

[Koniving]

Jazz Hands, on 01 October 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

I need a question answered from someone who knows more than I do with how this game functions. Just curious about some of the equations with buffs and mods. With multiple items affecting the same mechanic how does the math work out...


Firing reduction of 10% + Firing reduction of 12% as an example...


Do both reductions reduce from the weapons original cool down or does it apply one first and then apply the second after the cool down has already been modified? Because if it's the latter that's not nearly as impactful...


Jazz

It's a convoluted system that can confuse.

The most intelligent way to do it is to take the percentage changes and add/subtract them.

Example random mech B has a quirk, an elite skill and a penalty.

The quirk is a faster firing rate of 10%.
The elite skill is Fast Fire which gives 5% additional firing rate.
The penalty, for holding more hardpoints than is deemed acceptable, is a loss of 7.5% firing rate for said weapon.

The elite skill affects all weapons. The quirk and penalty affect the same weapon.

The weapon: medium laser with 3 second cooldown and 1 second beamtime. (4 seconds between shots; but only the cooldown is modified).
Positives: -10% cooldown, -5% cooldown
Negatives: +7.5% cooldown

The cooldown is 3 seconds.
The tally of quirks/penalties is 0 -10 - 5 + 7.5 = -7.5%
3 seconds - 7.5% = 2.775 cooldown.

2.775 cooldown + 1 second beam time (medium laser)= 3.775 seconds between trigger pulls / mouse clicks / firing cycles.

Now if the quirk shortened the beam time... then you'd have a change to the beam time and then combine with the cooldown.

One way to find out is to use this. The percentages here are done the same way that PGI is doing all percentages.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

[keith]

Praetor Knight, on 01 October 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

I haven't looked at this that closely yet, but here's this on cooldowns: weapon-cooldown

I figure that once it's cleaned up, we'll get an update in a Patch Notes or a Command Chair post.

my guess is it pgi math fail, or not doing how they want it too. let take a random time of 3 sec if u do 3*.9*.88=2.376 if u get the bonus added togeather math should be 3*(.78)=2.34 profit. GW1 ****** up by doing it the frist way too, but in there u could get 10 things stacked on u with many decreases bonuses.

[-VooDoo-]

There just seems to be so much information not present and available in this game. At the very least it would be nice to see SOMEWHERE (in game or mechlab) what the end result is for these and other buffs. Only thing I see is in game and is a distance rating. If we at least knew what the end result was we could figure out what the math was and if it was additive or multiplicative, etc.

With the ability for customization in a game, information is pretty paramount.

Jazz

[Xarian]

Koniving, on 02 October 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:

It's a convoluted system that can confuse.

The most intelligent way to do it is to take the percentage changes and add/subtract them.

Example random mech B has a quirk, an elite skill and a penalty.

The quirk is a faster firing rate of 10%.
The elite skill is Fast Fire which gives 5% additional firing rate.
The penalty, for holding more hardpoints than is deemed acceptable, is a loss of 7.5% firing rate for said weapon.

The elite skill affects all weapons. The quirk and penalty affect the same weapon.

The weapon: medium laser with 3 second cooldown and 1 second beamtime. (4 seconds between shots; but only the cooldown is modified).
Positives: -10% cooldown, -5% cooldown
Negatives: +7.5% cooldown

The cooldown is 3 seconds.
The tally of quirks/penalties is 0 -10 - 5 + 7.5 = -7.5%
3 seconds - 7.5% = 2.775 cooldown.

2.775 cooldown + 1 second beam time (medium laser)= 3.775 seconds between trigger pulls / mouse clicks / firing cycles.

Now if the quirk shortened the beam time... then you'd have a change to the beam time and then combine with the cooldown.

One way to find out is to use this. The percentages here are done the same way that PGI is doing all percentages.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

While this method is easier to figure out the number for the "bonus", it runs into a pretty significant problem: percentage points become increasingly effective as you move further away from zero.

Say you've got an instant-fire weapon that does 10 DPS. A -10% cooldown module bumps this up to (1/0.9)*10 = 11.1 DPS. That's a 11% bonus to DPS. Add a -10% cooldown quirk, and you're looking at (1/0.8)*10 = 12.5 DPS. So with your 20% cooldown reduction, you've totaled up to a 25% bonus to DPS. Taking this to an extreme, a -90% cooldown would give you a DPS of 100 (10x as much as the original - a 900% bonus).

The reverse is also true, in that the penalty gets lessened as you increase the penalty. A +10% cooldown quirk lowers your DPS to (1/1.1)*10 = 9.1 DPS, which is a 9% penalty. Add in another 10% cooldown quirk and you're looking at (1/1.2)*10 = 8.3 DPS, which is a 17% penalty. Taking this to an extreme, a +90% cooldown would give you a DPS of 5.3, which is a 47% reduction.

On the other hand, we can look at a different way of adding the bonuses together, and multiply them.
- As above, say you've got 2 bonuses giving -10% cooldown. After the first bonus, you get an 11% bonus to your DPS, just like before. After the second bonus, you get another 11% bonus on top of that. Your resulting DPS ends up being 12.34, which is a 23% bonus overall. This isn't that much different than adding them.
- Let's say you've got 9 bonuses, each giving -10% cooldown. Your DPS ends up being 25.8, which is a 158% bonus.
- In the reverse, you've got two 10% penalties. The total penalty is 17.3%, similar to before.
- Now you've got 9x 10% penalties. The total penalty is -58%.

What advantages does this method have?

• Big bonuses are worth more than multiple small ones. This means that mechs that have a single giant bonus (say, a Hunchback with -30% cooldown on AC/20) can't be made obsolete by using a superior chassis with multiple small bonuses (modules)
  
• Big penalties are worth less than multiple small ones. If you have a mech that has +5% energy cooldown in 4 different parts, you end up with a greater penalty than using 2 parts with 10% penalty each.

If you keep the numbers hovering around 10-15% then the methods give similar results, but if you start getting out past 15%, or using lots of parts with smaller bonuses, then you start to notice a big difference.

[terrycloth]

A common method used in games to deal with bonuses that reduce quantities is 100%/(100%+bonus%). So a 100% cooldown reduction would give you a cooldown time half as long (100/(100+100) = 1/2).

Then you can add an arbitrarily large number of bonuses together without it getting degenerate.

Don't know if MWO uses that.

Edited by terrycloth, 02 October 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[JD R]

No point.

+12% means x1,12
+10% means x 1,10

so no matter 100*1,12*1,10 or 100*1,10*1,12

[-VooDoo-]

Well...PGI "could" clear all this confusion up in an instant...

[-VooDoo-]

One thing WOW did very well. You knew how everything was calculated and every piece of information was available.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Jazz Hands, on 01 October 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

I need a question answered from someone who knows more than I do with how this game functions. Just curious about some of the equations with buffs and mods. With multiple items affecting the same mechanic how does the math work out...


Firing reduction of 10% + Firing reduction of 12% as an example...


Do both reductions reduce from the weapons original cool down or does it apply one first and then apply the second after the cool down has already been modified? Because if it's the latter that's not nearly as impactful...


Jazz

Somewhere Russ said it stacks, so it would be 22% reduction.