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When Do We Get Ebon Jaguar/cauldron Born?


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#21 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 02:39 AM

View PostKelesK, on 15 October 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Can people please think before requesting chassis that are no where near the current time line. Or is that too much to ask (no I am not refering to the Cauldron-Born). You know it's not going to happen, I know it's not going to happen, PGI is going to laugh and mock you for even considering it will happen, just stop beating the horse.

May I also suggest picking up a copy of the BattleTech TRO 3050 book if you haven't already. If it is not in there, do not hope for it any time in the foreseeable future. The only exceptions to this would be any Unseen PGI wish to recreate and even then I would not hold your breath or if it was in an earlier TRO (eg. 3039, 3025).

Here is a list of your Clan chassis:
Spoiler




Here is a list of your IS chassis:
Spoiler




If what you are asking for is not on either list. Do us all a favour and stop asking for it.


Except you missed four:

http://www.sarna.net..._(Cauldron-Born) Production year 3049 - it doesnt matter if 'no one saw it' - according to sarna it existed in 3049

http://www.sarna.net.../Arctic_Cheetah Production year 3037 - NOTHING wrong with this one at all, and would be absolutely awesome in MWO.. why is everyone missing it?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Huntsman Production year 3049

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Pouncer Production year 3050

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 06 November 2014 - 02:41 AM.


#22 CyclonerM

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 06:26 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 06 November 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:


Except you missed four:

http://www.sarna.net..._(Cauldron-Born) Production year 3049 - it doesnt matter if 'no one saw it' - according to sarna it existed in 3049

http://www.sarna.net.../Arctic_Cheetah Production year 3037 - NOTHING wrong with this one at all, and would be absolutely awesome in MWO.. why is everyone missing it?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Huntsman Production year 3049

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Pouncer Production year 3050

You say it does not matter..

But if a 'Mech chassis starts getting produced in the Clan homeworlds in 3050, even if in a year each invading Clan could produce enough 'Mechs to bolster their invading Clusters or replace older 'Mechs, it would still take a year-long travel to the Inner Sphere..

#23 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 07:14 AM

View PostCyclonerM, on 06 November 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

You say it does not matter..

But if a 'Mech chassis starts getting produced in the Clan homeworlds in 3050, even if in a year each invading Clan could produce enough 'Mechs to bolster their invading Clusters or replace older 'Mechs, it would still take a year-long travel to the Inner Sphere..


IS are getting the King Crab which practically doesnt exist in this timeframe...

by the end of the Third Succession War a mere handful ofKing Crabs were still in active service with the Great Houses.[6]
When ComStar initiated the takeover of the Terra system, they were able to repair the King Crab factory on Mars, mothball it, and secretly secure a number of King Crabs in storage. By the dawn of the Thirty-first century ComStar contracted Corsara Weaponries to resume production in order to restock their supply, which had begun to degrade with age and was later used to outfit the Com Guards. For the pivotal Battle of Tukayyid the King Crab was among a number of designs upgraded to meet the challenge of the Clans, the so-called "Clanbusters." The success of the KGC-001 model was such that ComStar allowed Corsara to begin general production from their Mars and Northwind factories and sell it on the open market in exchange for a share of the profits.

So basically the King Crab shouldn't be available till after 3052.. but it existed technically, and we are getting it.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 06 November 2014 - 07:14 AM.


#24 Raziberry

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 07:35 AM

View PostMarack Drock, on 02 October 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Ebon Jaguar, Fire Moth, Marauder IIC, Executioner, Grizzly, Incubus, Jenner IIC, Warhammer IIC, Rifleman IIC, Stone Rhino, Phantom, Line Backer, Naga, Kodiak, and Horned Owl, Super Nova, and Shadow Cat are all missing and these are quintessential mechs from the original days of MW2 and 3.


I don't think you know what "quintessential" means. There were five releases in that period: MW2, GBL, Mercs, MW3, and Pirate's Moon. Not one of those 'Mechs was in all of the five releases, and some of them were only in one.

We all want to see our favourite 'Mechs in the game, but we haven't even gotten all the clan units from 3050, so let's not jump the gun for 3055 and 3058 just yet.

#25 CyclonerM

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 07:47 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 06 November 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:


IS are getting the King Crab which practically doesnt exist in this timeframe...

So basically the King Crab shouldn't be available till after 3052.. but it existed technically, and we are getting it.


Actually, it seems that it existed but was in very rare quantity.. Though i can see the logic is similar. Only ComStar had access to these 'Mechs, and i agree that it should not be available to everyone. But, as i often say, a major lore violation does legitimate even more violations, quiaff?

#26 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 08:59 AM

View PostCyclonerM, on 06 November 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:


Actually, it seems that it existed but was in very rare quantity.. Though i can see the logic is similar. Only ComStar had access to these 'Mechs, and i agree that it should not be available to everyone. But, as i often say, a major lore violation does legitimate even more violations, quiaff?


The fact is, we need options, and those 3050 mechs represent well built alternatives to the TBW and SCR, unlike what PGI has released so far, which are all inherently inferior to those 2, because they were poorly designed (over engined/No endo) -

the Ebon Jaguar is nearly as good as the TBW (no JJs, but slightly more pod space, and the ability to run dual gauss in high mounts, itll be the clan Jagermech) - the HBR and MDD, while good are not TBW level

The Huntsman is arguably better than the SCR, pretty much level playing field (JJs on the hunsman vs speed on the SCR). The NVA and IFR are not in the same league.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 06 November 2014 - 09:10 AM.


#27 IraqiWalker

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 09:05 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 06 November 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:


The fact is, we need options, and those 3050 mechs represent well built alternatives to the TBW and SCR, unlike what PGI has released so far, which are all inherently inferior to those 2, because they were poorly designed (over engined/No endo)


I'm sorry, but the Cauldron Born is flat out inferior to the TBW. I'm not even sure what you mean by "well built" in comparison to the TBW, which is currently one of the best, if not the best heavy in the game. Getting a heavy that is 10 tons under, not jump capable, and will knuckle drag from here to high noon, doesn't sound superior, that sounds a lot worse. Most people want it in the game due to nostalgia, which I will get behind 100%, but make no mistake, it's not going to be better than a Madcat.

However, the original claim of the mechs not being there because no one saw them actually merits standing.

The main difference between the King Crab, and the Cauldron-Born/Shadow Cat, is that it WAS on the field, they [King Crabs] were deployed, small numbers or not.

The CB and SC both were not deployed into combat until the battle of Luthien. Meaning that built or not, they were not on the field until then. They did not exist in the Inner Sphere, until that battle. The King Crab maybe rare, but at least it was on the field, and for the record, there were a couple of clan buster versions for the battle of Tukayyid, that were present on the field in a good number.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 06 November 2014 - 09:09 AM.


#28 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 09:21 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 06 November 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:


I'm sorry, but the Cauldron Born is flat out inferior to the TBW. I'm not even sure what you mean by "well built" in comparison to the TBW, which is currently one of the best, if not the best heavy in the game. Getting a heavy that is 10 tons under, not jump capable, and will knuckle drag from here to high noon, doesn't sound superior, that sounds a lot worse. Most people want it in the game due to nostalgia, which I will get behind 100%, but make no mistake, it's not going to be better than a Madcat.

However, the original claim of the mechs not being there because no one saw them actually merits standing.

The main difference between the King Crab, and the Cauldron-Born/Shadow Cat, is that it WAS on the field, they [King Crabs] were deployed, small numbers or not.

The CB and SC both were not deployed into combat until the battle of Luthien. Meaning that built or not, they were not on the field until then. They did not exist in the Inner Sphere, until that battle. The King Crab maybe rare, but at least it was on the field, and for the record, there were a couple of clan buster versions for the battle of Tukayyid, that were present on the field in a good number.


Posted Image

Im sorry, those guns are all cockpit level or higher, knuckle dragger?

By well build i mean correct engine size selection, with Endo steel structure basically, along with functional numbers of E hardpoints. This also has the advantage of being the only clan mech other then the DW capable of mounting dual gauss rifles. It will be a competitive choice compared to the madcat, which is wasting a decent portion of its 10 ton advantage on being overengined (though only slightly). A Madcat with a 350 would be a TERROR.

Im not talking about the shadowcat, since the issue is MASC anyway, not timeline. In addition, since we recently went back in time, i think PGI can take very small liberties with the timeline anyway... unless time travel is part of BT?

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 06 November 2014 - 09:22 AM.


#29 Metus regem

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 09:22 AM

View PostMattiator, on 02 October 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:


The Gladiator is a good choice, being a well-known Ghost Bear scout Omni design with plenty of variants for the timeline. Sadly, it also utilizes MASC, ruling it out until further notice.


Fixed that for ya...

#30 dwwolf

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 09:58 AM

I have no idea why MASC should be a problem. There is only 1 design where it approaches gamebreaking speeds ( dasher ) for atleast 10 ingame years. We can ignore that mech by not introducing it or folding the MASC tonnage into armor ( its the most under armored mech in clan inventory ).

No other mech in the current timeline is problematic so the only other problems would be implementation related. Ie. coding and UI functionality.

#31 Noesis

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 03:31 PM

View Postdwwolf, on 06 November 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

I have no idea why MASC should be a problem.


Well if you remember the original need for engine restrictions it was all interlinked with hit detection issues. This helping to maintain the speeds of Mechs but moreso for lights. Also the perception that with min/maxing certain speeds start to become quite pilot unfreindly, though that issue s more subjective.

There has been significant work however since then with the development of initatives like HSR and the work done to improve on hit detection. This however being the investment of months of progressive work on improving the net code.

With the idea then of increasing speeds this may take the idea of hit detection issues out of its acceptable tollerances for the current capabilities of what the netcode and the engine can currently support. So PGI may be trying to improve on this further to be able to apply MASC for use. This is perhaps less of a concern for larger classes as their speeds may not effect this issues, but with MASC applying to light classes and something more useful to them then I would imagine that PGI want to get the state of the game into a position where MASC wont cause hit registry problems.

#32 Razor Kotovsky

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 04:35 PM

Rare/unseen or not, King Crab and Marauder are the only mechs able to level the field with MadCats and Daishis.

Especially since every freeborn scum like myself is free to abuse the latter two across all game modes there currently are.

#33 dwwolf

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 03:58 AM

I think I adressed why I dont think MASC is a problem. For the clans its a problem with 1 chassis for the foreseeable future. All the others wouldnt be problematic ..be it shadowcat or gladiator. IS side MASC can be included in specific new variants with reasoned out engine limits.

#34 IraqiWalker

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 10:06 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 06 November 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:


Posted Image

Im sorry, those guns are all cockpit level or higher, knuckle dragger?

By well build i mean correct engine size selection, with Endo steel structure basically, along with functional numbers of E hardpoints. This also has the advantage of being the only clan mech other then the DW capable of mounting dual gauss rifles. It will be a competitive choice compared to the madcat, which is wasting a decent portion of its 10 ton advantage on being overengined (though only slightly). A Madcat with a 350 would be a TERROR.

Im not talking about the shadowcat, since the issue is MASC anyway, not timeline. In addition, since we recently went back in time, i think PGI can take very small liberties with the timeline anyway... unless time travel is part of BT?


Oh, so that's what you meant by well built. I apologize for misunderstanding (yes, the TBR is SO over-engined). I will also agree 100% that a TBR with an XL 350 is flat out better.

However, as for the knuckle dragging, the CB weapons are cockpit level, that is true, but have you looked at the TRO art you just linked? The mech is insanely short, you will still be knuckle dragging even with the high mounted weapons.


View PostMarack Drock, on 06 November 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Also if a mech was manufactured during that time it is viable making Cauldron Born/Ebon Jaguar viable.


Sorry Marack, but I will disagree here, simply because the game right now is playing out based on what mechs were present on the field, and the CB was never on the field until the Battle of Luthien.


View Postdwwolf, on 06 November 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

I have no idea why MASC should be a problem. There is only 1 design where it approaches gamebreaking speeds ( dasher ) for atleast 10 ingame years. We can ignore that mech by not introducing it or folding the MASC tonnage into armor ( its the most under armored mech in clan inventory ).

No other mech in the current timeline is problematic so the only other problems would be implementation related. Ie. coding and UI functionality.


Most IS lights have their speeds restricted, they all should be clocking at around 200+ Kph. The Locust and Flea should be going 300 with MASC on.

The game engine has problems when you hit 180Kph. 200+ and 300+ are WAY beyond that.

#35 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 10:29 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 07 November 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:


Oh, so that's what you meant by well built. I apologize for misunderstanding (yes, the TBR is SO over-engined). I will also agree 100% that a TBR with an XL 350 is flat out better.

However, as for the knuckle dragging, the CB weapons are cockpit level, that is true, but have you looked at the TRO art you just linked? The mech is insanely short, you will still be knuckle dragging even with the high mounted weapons.


To be honest 'knuckle dragging' as i see it relates to cockpit height, and not distance to the ground, because the cockpit height determines your perspective - a firestarter doesnt have issues with being a knuckle dragger, and an atlas does - yet the firestarters guns are far closer to the ground.. being a short mech is its own thing and is a double edged sword, it has pros and cons.. the issues come when your mech is tall, but your guns are low.

View PostIraqiWalker, on 07 November 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Sorry Marack, but I will disagree here, simply because the game right now is playing out based on what mechs were present on the field, and the CB was never on the field until the Battle of Luthien.


i disagree - it was not reported as being seen by inner sphere troops until then, but that does not mean it was not on the field. In fact, since it had been in production for a year at the time of the invasion, i find it very unlikely that at least a few wouldn't have been around for testing purposes. and a few is fine, see the King Crab point.

#36 IraqiWalker

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 11:48 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 07 November 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:


To be honest 'knuckle dragging' as i see it relates to cockpit height, and not distance to the ground, because the cockpit height determines your perspective - a firestarter doesnt have issues with being a knuckle dragger, and an atlas does - yet the firestarters guns are far closer to the ground.. being a short mech is its own thing and is a double edged sword, it has pros and cons.. the issues come when your mech is tall, but your guns are low.


Fair point, but I think the reason the FS9 and other lights don't count as knuckle dragging is because their arms are small, and allow for good movement considering their scale.

Right now, the Nova is considered one of the worst knuckle draggers in the game, and it's got Jump Jets. Even with the mounts being a bit higher, unless the CB is going to be taller than a Nova (which it really shouldn't, not with our tall novas), it's gonna have problems. The ST mounted weapons will probably be fine, but the arm mounted ones (in my opinion), will suffer.

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 07 November 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

i disagree - it was not reported as being seen by inner sphere troops until then, but that does not mean it was not on the field. In fact, since it had been in production for a year at the time of the invasion, i find it very unlikely that at least a few wouldn't have been around for testing purposes. and a few is fine, see the King Crab point.

That's pretty much the point. No one had really seen it on the front lines, to the point where even the clans called it by it's IS designation. Also, clan testing is rarely done on the field, it's done in controlled environments (i.e. labs in home worlds, and rear line action). Right now, we're not seeing second line mechs, let alone ones that aren't even used in the second line so far.

The King Crab was on the front lines, the CB, wasn't. Clan mechs being introduced right now, are being picked simply by whether or not the IS has seen them on the front lines. Neither of the CB or SC were until Luthien.

#37 IraqiWalker

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 12:33 PM

View PostMarack Drock, on 07 November 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

King Crab was not on the field until 3052 because it had gone out of circulation before Battlemaster in the 28th century. Yet we are getting it. Same as the Project Phoenix mechs. Until 3058 NONE of these mechs but Battlemaster were still around. Yet we have them so your argument has no credibility do to it not being true. These mechs shouldn't be here if your theory is true.

The Phoenix mechs shouldn't be here till the Clan Breaker Com Star drops before Tukayyid.


Not really.

Shadowhawk:

Quote

Lang continued to produce the Shadow Hawk for theStar League and the Great Houses until their factory was destroyed with the start of the Succession Wars. Afterwards Earthwerks Incorporated remained the only manufacturer within the Inner Sphere to continue producing Shadow Hawks from their factory on Calloway VI, while in the Periphery Majesty Metals and Manufacturing on Dunianshire built these 'Mechs for the Magistracy of Canopus and other prospective buyers. As many of the lostech was rediscovered, Earthwerks was able to create an updated variant of the Shadow Hawk, the SHD-5M, in time for the Clan Invasion.


Shadowhawks were never off the field.

Thunderbolt:

Quote

The Thunderbolt was originally produced by Earthwerks Incorporated from their plant on Keystone, with Olivetti Weaponry picking up the design following their formation and building it on Sudeten. During the Succession Wars this made House Steiner and House Marik the largest users of Thunderbolts, although they were perfectly willing to sell the design to the other Successor States. Thus House Liao was another significant Thunderbolt user, at least until the Fourth Succession War and Andurien Wars. The Taurian Concordat was one of the largest users of the Thunderbolt in the Periphery thanks to both Vandenberg Mechanized Industries and Taurus Territorial Industries acquiring and producing the 'Mech from their factories on Pinard and Taurus respectively, with many being sold to mercenary bands.


Thunderbolts were never not in circulation since their production began.

As for the Locust, it's considered one of the most widely used mechs in existence, there was never a place or unit that didn't have a bunch of them lying around at all times. You couldn't throw a rock into the Inner Sphere without it hitting a planet that had a bunch of the little buggers on it.

Not a single Phoenix mech was ever out of circulation in the IS arsenal. A couple of the variants we got were not timeline accurate maybe (the SHD-5M comes to mind as either entering shortly before the clan invasion, or just after it started).

The King Crab was never extinct from IS lines either, just fielded in fewer numbers, because it was too much of a blow to lose one.

The clan buster variants are mostly not here yet. The KGC will probably be the first mech with an actual clan buster variant in the game.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 November 2014 - 12:40 PM.


#38 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 04:38 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 07 November 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:


Not really.

Shadowhawk:

[/sup][/size]

Shadowhawks were never off the field.

Thunderbolt:


Thunderbolts were never not in circulation since their production began.

As for the Locust, it's considered one of the most widely used mechs in existence, there was never a place or unit that didn't have a bunch of them lying around at all times. You couldn't throw a rock into the Inner Sphere without it hitting a planet that had a bunch of the little buggers on it.

Not a single Phoenix mech was ever out of circulation in the IS arsenal. A couple of the variants we got were not timeline accurate maybe (the SHD-5M comes to mind as either entering shortly before the clan invasion, or just after it started).

The King Crab was never extinct from IS lines either, just fielded in fewer numbers, because it was too much of a blow to lose one.

The clan buster variants are mostly not here yet. The KGC will probably be the first mech with an actual clan buster variant in the game.


a 'mere handful' is not fewer numbers really, its pretty much not there, at least in my opinion as much not there as a new mech that had been in production (i.e. not a prototype, in production implies completed and being manufactured) for a year before this time. Its a bit of an irrelevant discussion though since its clearly possible for PGI to say its ok and release it if they want to, and its really no more arguable than a few things we already have. The fact is it is a correctly engined heavy with good hardpoints and ES which isnt the TBR, so we should get it for variety's sake if nothing else.

#39 TibsVT

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 03:05 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 06 November 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:


The fact is, we need options, and those 3050 mechs represent well built alternatives to the TBW and SCR, unlike what PGI has released so far, which are all inherently inferior to those 2, because they were poorly designed (over engined/No endo) -

the Ebon Jaguar is nearly as good as the TBW (no JJs, but slightly more pod space, and the ability to run dual gauss in high mounts, itll be the clan Jagermech) - the HBR and MDD, while good are not TBW level

The Huntsman is arguably better than the SCR, pretty much level playing field (JJs on the hunsman vs speed on the SCR). The NVA and IFR are not in the same league.

So.. You just want a bigger "I win" button.

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 06 November 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:


Except you missed four:

http://www.sarna.net..._(Cauldron-Born) Production year 3049 - it doesnt matter if 'no one saw it' - according to sarna it existed in 3049

http://www.sarna.net.../Arctic_Cheetah Production year 3037 - NOTHING wrong with this one at all, and would be absolutely awesome in MWO.. why is everyone missing it?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Huntsman Production year 3049

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Pouncer Production year 3050

Perhaps you missed the part where I suggested you pick up a copy of the TRO 3050 (I made it a little more obvious for you that time). Not 3058.

Edited by KelesK, 10 November 2014 - 03:13 AM.


#40 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 03:21 AM

View PostKelesK, on 10 November 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

So.. You just want a bigger "I win" button.


Perhaps you missed the part where I suggested you pick up a copy of the TRO 3050 (I made it a little more obvious for you that time). Not 3058.


lol.. are these mechs MORE powerful that then TBR/SCR - no they are not, ergo not more power, just more options. (though i suppose seeing fewer suckonner and Novafails on the field might increase avg power level of clans.. but no one is going to bring those to CW anyway)

and i dont give 2 flying fudges what TRO manual for a 30 year old boardgame they are from, what matters is the time when they were built, all prior to our current timeline.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 10 November 2014 - 03:23 AM.






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