LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 10 November 2014 - 05:44 AM
Widowmaker1981, on 10 November 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:
lol.. are these mechs MORE powerful that then TBR/SCR - no they are not, ergo not more power, just more options. (though i suppose seeing fewer suckonner and Novafails on the field might increase avg power level of clans.. but no one is going to bring those to CW anyway)
and i dont give 2 flying fudges what TRO manual for a 30 year old boardgame they are from, what matters is the time when they were built, all prior to our current timeline.
As the game is currently set in 3049, most of them are out. As much as I would love to have an Ebon Jaguar, at this point, only Clan Smoke Jaguar would have access to it in very limited numbers, more than likely on the home worlds, or on the long voyage to the IS.
I would love to see some older mechs like a Coyotl or Woodsmen....
Widowmaker1981, on 10 November 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:
lol.. are these mechs MORE powerful that then TBR/SCR - no they are not, ergo not more power, just more options. (though i suppose seeing fewer suckonner and Novafails on the field might increase avg power level of clans.. but no one is going to bring those to CW anyway)
and i dont give 2 flying fudges what TRO manual for a 30 year old boardgame they are from, what matters is the time when they were built, all prior to our current timeline.
You really don't seem to understand what many have been saying to you.
Here is the most simplified version of it:
It doesn't matter when they were made, not a single one of those mechs was on the field of battle, or even saw combat, until the battle of Luthien in 3052. It doesn't matter if they were being produced before then. Not a single model was in the Inner Sphere until just shortly before that battle. Probably because those mechs were being manufactured and tested on the clan homeworlds, not in the IS or the occupation zones, and were not shipped to the forces in the IS until 3052.
To be fair, NONE of the clan mechs are technically in the IS yet....without community warfare implemented it's all just running around, pew pew, no overall point besides just having fun with it.
It was supposed to be a year-to-year progression, but we've been at the same time period for years now. Who knows, they may decide to jump to after 3052 when they finally get CW cranked up.
Marack Drock, on 02 October 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:
Well one of the most iconic Torso Twistless mechs is still to make an appearance. While I love the current line up Ebon Jaguar, Fire Moth, Marauder IIC, Executioner, Grizzly, Incubus, Jenner IIC, Warhammer IIC, Rifleman IIC, Stone Rhino, Phantom, Line Backer, Naga, Kodiak, and Horned Owl, Super Nova, and Shadow Cat are all missing and these are quintessential mechs from the original days of MW2 and 3. When will they get an appearance. I know Marauder is a copyright of Harmony Gold but it only requires the 15 to 25% design difference before being out of their grasp. When do we get to see these mechs that are burned into the life of what is MW?
Edit- And I can guess all of us who are Clansmen were wanting to see these mechs a lot anyways.
The Cauldron-Born will probably be in the Clan Wave III.
Here are my guesses for next Clan packs:
Odanan, on 23 October 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:
Clan Wave III (featuring Clan Smoke Jaguar and Clan Ghost Bear favorites.Timeline: 3049):
- Light: Arctic Cheetah/Hankyu - signature Smoke Jaguar mech
- Medium: Viper/Firefly - very common, early invader, Ghost Bear favorite medium mech
- Heavy: Ebon Jaguar/Cauldron-Born - iconic, signature Smoke Jaguar mech
- Assault: Kingfisher - very old design, still used by CGB and CSJ - and a rare 90 tons Clanner
Reinforcement: Huntsman/Nobori-nin
Clan Wave IV (featuring Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon favorites. Timeline: 3052):
- Light: Fire Falcon
- Medium: Phantom
- Heavy: Linebacker
- Assault: Turkina
Reinforcement: Night Gyr
Clan Wave ? (early omnimech designs, but need the implementation of MASC):
- Light: Fire Moth/Dasher - will this extremely fast mech ever make it to MWO?
- Medium: Shadow Cat
- Heavy: Woodsman - needs a third omni configuration
- Assault: Executioner/Gladiator
Clan Second Line Garrison Pack (early Clan non-omni mechs - most need extra variants):
- Light: Hellion (needs MASC) or Cougar
- Medium: Black Lanner (needs MASC) or Mongrel/Grendel
- Heavy: Nova Cat
- Assault: Blood Asp
Reinforcement: Pouncer
I always thought its the production year that matters, not the date when they got spotted by stravag forces...
And i highly doubt Clan (smokejaguar) would keep its own mechs (Ebonjaguars) 3 years on its home planet (Huntress) or w/e, before they decide when to use them lol...
Edited by MechB Kotare, 10 November 2014 - 09:16 AM.
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 10 November 2014 - 09:36 AM
MechB Kotare, on 10 November 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:
I always thought its the production year that matters, not the date when they got spotted by stravag forces...
And i highly doubt Clan (smokejaguar) would keep its own mechs (Ebonjaguars) 3 years on its home planet (Huntress) or w/e, before they decide when to use them lol...
As I said, the year that it is in game is 3049, the clans have just started the invasion, if the Ebon Jaguar (at this point exclusive to Clan Smoke Jaguar) just finished testing phase and into production phase. That means that only a handful would be in service, more than likely with the Khan's unit or Alpha Galaxy. Even more so, since the unit is meant to be a totem mech for CSJ, it shouldn't be available as a player mech yet. On top of that, it took time, months if I remember correctly to make all the jumps from the home worlds to the IS, so the first ones might, might, get to the IS in mid to late 3050, with that being said, they wouldn't be available as a player unit (and only to CSJ players) till the Battle of Luthien as that was the point in time when it became widely available with in CSJ to be seen, and reported by ComStar.
Once CSJ became Kentucky Smoked Jaguar, that was when it be came available to the other clans as spoils of war, so as a general clan unit, it shouldn't be till the great refusal that it should be introduced... So April 12 3060, baring any time jumps, about 10 years from now....
As much as I would like to have one, I just don't see it happening for a while... With PGI now taking steps to make custom varients of some mechs, see the recent IS pack information look for units ending with a "P", means that we could see third versions of the Coyotl, and that would make me a happy Ghost Bear.
IraqiWalker, on 07 November 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:
The King Crab was on the front lines, the CB, wasn't. Clan mechs being introduced right now, are being picked simply by whether or not the IS has seen them on the front lines. Neither of the CB or SC were until Luthien.
Maybe not seen by people who survived to tell the history?
Anyway, guys, many variants in the game right now are extremely rare - and nonexistent in the hands of many Houses. Some, believe me, violate the timeline (Atlas S and Timber Wolf S). And we have invented hero mechs. Sometimes several of the same in the same match. And now, with the Enforcer, apocryphal variants.
In a game where we have a team with 3 ultra-customized Yen Lo Wangs, piloted by Kurita, Marik and Liao mechwarriors, fighting alongside Davion-piloted hero Dragons, adding the Cauldron Born, Mist Linx and Huntsman just a couple of years before they were reported in battle against IS is NOT A BIG DEAL.
For God's sake, this game breaks the lore in so many ways and you choose to pick that little detail? It's heavily based on the Battletech universe (thanks God it's not a MW4), but it bends the lore to fit better into the gameplay. Or do you expect a game where you have only one stock mech? (because that's basically all any BT character can have, including princes an lords)
Clan Wave II (EDIT: typo, it should be III) will come and I can bet the Cauldron Born will be on it. The reason? There are not many Clan heavy omnimechs alternatives.
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 10 November 2014 - 09:52 AM
Odanan, on 10 November 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:
Maybe not seen by people who survived to tell the history?
Anyway, guys, many variants in the game right now are extremely rare - and nonexistent in the hands of many Houses. Some, believe me, violate the timeline (Atlas S and Timber Wolf S). And we have invented hero mechs. Sometimes several of the same in the same match. And now, with the Enforcer, apocryphal variants.
In a game where we have a team with 3 ultra-customized Yen Lo Wangs, piloted by Kurita, Marik and Liao mechwarriors, fighting alongside Davion-piloted hero Dragons, adding the Cauldron Born, Mist Linx and Huntsman just a couple of years before they were reported in battle against IS is NOT A BIG DEAL.
For God's sake, this game breaks the lore in so many ways and you choose to pick that little detail? It's heavily based on the Battletech universe (thanks God it's not a MW4), but it bends the lore to fit better into the gameplay. Or do you expect a game where you have only one stock mech? (because that's basically all any BT character can have, including princes an lords)
Clan Wave II will come and I can bet the Cauldron Born will be on it. The reason? There are not many Clan heavy omnimechs alternatives.
Well Wave II is just more 3050TRO Clan Mechs... or do you mean Wave III?
I'm all for IS being forced into using Stock mechs, or having hard locked Engines / Internal structure type / Hard Points / some fixed equipment, like Battle mechs should be.
While Clans have Omni Mechs that have locked Engines / Internal Structure type / armour type and armour amount / some fixed equipment.
I also totaly agree with you about, thanking the gods, that this is not MW4...
But that being said, when it comes to CW, I would like it if they stuck closer to the lore and established time line, and only violate it, as needed. Personally I hate that we have S pods on the Timber Wolf / Nova / Kit Fox, they shouldn't be around till late 3050/3051, since they were developed to help deal with IS infantry tactics...
Marack Drock, on 10 November 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:
And yet MW4 was way more popular, and way more stable a game. And easier to use I.E. UI2.0....
And yet it isn't in wave II at all, nor has anything been said about it.
Dude it STARTED Production in 3049. Which means it WAS in combat by 3050 easily (CSJ need I say more), and by 3052 it will be in standard numbers for one Clan.
Also, if what you say should happen (no Clan gets it but CSJ until 3060) then:
Yen Lo Wang
Dragon
should not be allowed to be bought by anyone but Kruita, Steiner should be the only ones being able to buy:
Highlander
Hunchback
Atlas
Zeus
etc
and so on. So your logic doesn't work in this game... At all. Only way these factions would get them: Salvage. Your own logic means this game does not follow Lore therefore WHY SHOULD WE CARE? This game has barely even followed the outer brackets of lore, let alone any actual details. IT IS worse than MW4 in lore. At least MW4 had that entire beginning Installation sequence giving you Canon events leading up to that point. And even then it still followed the bracket lines of lore. MWO WILL NOT. Community Warfare. Need I say more. Community Warfare will BREAK the very foundations of lore to the point of utter ruin. It will make MW4 seem like a Canon Novel. PGI said we decide the outcome (during each season of war) and only VERY major events will ever happen.
MWO is not lore abiding, never will be, never has been. Deal with it Odanan and Metus regem. Lore is not in this game and even by lore standards: Cauldron Born/Ebon Jaguar should be available by 3049 and onwards.
Wrong, Clan Nova Cat captured many after the failure of Luthien, when CSJ attacked CNC and failed at that giving the Nova Cats several numbers of mechs and damaging CSJ by losing half a galaxy.
OK, wait a minute, I was saying the Cauldron Born will be in the next Clan Wave.
And what happens in CW is set in a canonical period of time but with absolutely no reflection in the lore. It's like a game of WW2, when you win as the Axis you don't change real history. I hope there isn't an player here expecting the CW will be a reenactment of the Clan Invasions, where the players have nothing to do with the outcome of the battles...
And what's up with your list of mechs? Check this out for more accurate info on mech availability for each faction.
Marack Drock, on 10 November 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:
Dude that isn't the point. The point is:
Ebon Jaguar is a viable build as of 3049.
My list was because you and Regem were going off on the Lore of Battlemechs in BT being available and stuff so I made that list as an example of how broken in regards to mech manufacture lore this game is. It is broken.
I did agree the manufacture lore is broken. And I did agree the Cauldron Born is a viable mech for 3049. Are we OK?
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 10 November 2014 - 11:45 AM
Odanan, on 10 November 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:
OK, wait a minute, I was saying the Cauldron Born will be in the next Clan Wave.
And what happens in CW is set in a canonical period of time but with absolutely no reflection in the lore. It's like a game of WW2, when you win as the Axis you don't change real history. I hope there isn't an player here expecting the CW will be a reenactment of the Clan Invasions, where the players have nothing to do with the outcome of the battles...
And what's up with your list of mechs? Check this out for more accurate info on mech availability for each faction.
And these might make things easier:
Thanks for the list, so with the Ebon Jaguar making up 7% of the Heavy Mechs in CSJ at 3050, it is going to be an extremely rare unit with in CSJ still, in a couple of years (3052) I would imagen the numbers would look much different.
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 10 November 2014 - 11:54 AM
Marack Drock, on 10 November 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:
Dude that isn't the point. The point is:
Ebon Jaguar is a viable build as of 3049.
My list was because you and Regem were going off on the Lore of Battlemechs in BT being available and stuff so I made that list as an example of how broken in regards to mech manufacture lore this game is. It is broken.
-sigh- What I said was, yes it is in production, but not in enough numbers yet to be a viable unit for general clan usage. I would be on board for it being a reward for getting enough loyalty points with CSJ in CW.
Just as Dragons should be for the Combine, as the Enforcer should be for FedCom...
Personally I like the idea of some mechs, just not being available for usage with out doing some work to get them, and things like the 'Wang shouldn't be playable, unless you are Kai Allard-Liao. I'm fine with making a Centurion look and have the same kit as the 'Wang, but it shouldn't be the 'Wang.
Metus regem, on 10 November 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:
Thanks for the list, so with the Ebon Jaguar making up 7% of the Heavy Mechs in CSJ at 3050, it is going to be an extremely rare unit with in CSJ still, in a couple of years (3052) I would imagen the numbers would look much different.
The Yen Lo Wang is as rare as it gets (after all, there is only one) and we see a lot of them out there (even in the same match)... So I see no problem in adding the Cauldron Born to the game.
Marack Drock, on 10 November 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:
Also your lore theory is already broken as Firemoth must be included in another wave not wave 1 like it was IN LORE.
Firemoth would have been here, but MASC is still too tricky to implement. That is literally the only reason it has not been implemented in the game with wave 1.
Marack Drock, on 10 November 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:
Give me a quote where it says none of these mechs ever saw action till Luthien and NEVER left Clan space. I have found no evidence saying these mechs NEVER saw combat outside Clan space. All I have found is one single manual giving a list mechs identified by the Inner Sphere. And besides as stated above many of these mechs we have should not be here till the Clan Busters in 3052.
How about a full book, or two?
TRO 3050 lists all mechs up until the end of 3050 (we're still in 3049), the CB, and the SC both aren't there.
TRO 3058 is where they are first listed (for both it says that they were FIRST ENCOUNTERED BY THE IS DURING THE BATTLE OF LUTHIEN)
I may be vague on the language here, but I'm pretty sure "first encountered" means never seen until that moment. Add to it that the clans have virtually no one else to fight outside of clan space other than the IS, and it makes sense that those mechs NEVER SAW COMBAT OUTSIDE OF CLAN SPACE UNTIL THE BATTLE OF LUTHIEN.
Marack Drock, on 10 November 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:
Locust- Production ended in-2499 (some factories eventually made new Locusts during Clan Invasion after the Clan Busters)
Shadow Hawk- Production ended in-2550 (only one factory until FedCom civil war made them still leaving a meager handful in existence)
Wolverine- Technology lost and factories kept changing hands until a meager amount was left. Not remade with new variants until 3064.
Thunder Bolt- was nearly gone until 3049 when they introduced a few new models (limited very limited amounts) to the Inner Sphere.
BattleMaster- Fell out of production with the rise of Atlas and then fell off the grid and was then used as a command vehicle for the remainder of its years until being in production in 3049 so it could be stopped by Clan Jade Falcon when they took Twycross, Production did not start again till 3062 and those were so rare they shouldn't be considered.
King Crab- Was replaced by Atlas by 2767, and was out of production by 2778. Numbers declined to the point they were sheltered by any lucky owners of one. King Crab did not get reintroduced to the Inner Sphere until 3052 as a Clan Buster.
Griffin is the only one of the Project Phoenix Mechs still in production by this time. Therefore by the standards lain down by Kelesk and IraqiWalker the others should not be here especially when they are in such limited numbers.
What are you even talking about? Not a single one of the 6 mechs introduced with project phoenix was EVER out of production (when they became unseen the lore was changed a bit, but as soon as they became re-seen they put the lore back to it's correct form).
Agian:
Spoiler
Shadowhawk:
Quote
Lang continued to produce the Shadow Hawk for theStar League and the Great Houses until their factory was destroyed with the start of the Succession Wars. Afterwards Earthwerks Incorporated remained the only manufacturer within the Inner Sphere to continue producing Shadow Hawks from their factory on Calloway VI, while in the Periphery Majesty Metals and Manufacturing on Dunianshire built these 'Mechs for the Magistracy of Canopus and other prospective buyers. As many of the lostech was rediscovered, Earthwerks was able to create an updated variant of the Shadow Hawk, the SHD-5M, in time for the Clan Invasion.
Thunderbolts were never not in circulation since their production began.
As for the Locust, it's considered one of the most widely used mechs in existence, there was never a place or unit that didn't have a bunch of them lying around at all times. You couldn't throw a rock into the Inner Sphere without it hitting a planet that had a bunch of the little buggers on it.
Not a single Phoenix mech was ever out of circulation in the IS arsenal. A couple of the variants we got were not timeline accurate maybe (the SHD-5M comes to mind as either entering shortly before the clan invasion, or just after it started).
The King Crab was never extinct from IS lines either, just fielded in fewer numbers, because it was too much of a blow to lose one.
The clan buster variants are mostly not here yet. The KGC will probably be the first mech with an actual clan buster variant in the game.
MechB Kotare, on 10 November 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:
I always thought its the production year that matters, not the date when they got spotted by stravag forces...
And i highly doubt Clan (smokejaguar) would keep its own mechs (Ebonjaguars) 3 years on its home planet (Huntress) or w/e, before they decide when to use them lol...
Production year doesn't help, because some mechs were produced early, lost to time for a few centuries, and re-introduced later. Can get really annoying, and really tricky. Also, production date doesn't cover all the post production testing, shipping time, and production rate.
Technically, the CB went into production in 3049, however, the factories that were manufacturing it were probably producing no more than a dozen or so mechs a year, so they had to wait a couple of years till they had a decent number to introduce to the front line (you don't want to put just one out there, and watch it get focus fired to hell immediately), and then shipped what they produced to the IS. That trip took about a year as well, suddenly we know why they weren't there until 3052.
It was a very rare mech because they were slowly manufacturing them. People think mech construction is really fast, they are wrong. Most top of the line manufacturers were making a few dozen mechs in a year (varies depending on weight class too, lights can be produced a lot faster than assaults for example), at best (under perfect conditions, with multiple production lines, and plants on multiple planets, without needing to be secretive about it, or under threat of bids and invasion ... etc.)
Pretty sure CSJ would want more than 5 of those on the field, right?
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 10 November 2014 - 02:39 PM
IraqiWalker, on 10 November 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:
Firemoth would have been here, but MASC is still too tricky to implement. That is literally the only reason it has not been implemented in the game with wave 1.
How about a full book, or two?
TRO 3050 lists all mechs up until the end of 3050 (we're still in 3049), the CB, and the SC both aren't there.
TRO 3058 is where they are first listed (for both it says that they were FIRST ENCOUNTERED BY THE IS DURING THE BATTLE OF LUTHIEN)
I may be vague on the language here, but I'm pretty sure "first encountered" means never seen until that moment. Add to it that the clans have virtually no one else to fight outside of clan space other than the IS, and it makes sense that those mechs NEVER SAW COMBAT OUTSIDE OF CLAN SPACE UNTIL THE BATTLE OF LUTHIEN.
What are you even talking about? Not a single one of the 6 mechs introduced with project phoenix was EVER out of production (when they became unseen the lore was changed a bit, but as soon as they became re-seen they put the lore back to it's correct form).
Agian:
Spoiler
Shadowhawk:
[/sup][/size]
Shadowhawks were never off the field.
Thunderbolt:
Thunderbolts were never not in circulation since their production began.
As for the Locust, it's considered one of the most widely used mechs in existence, there was never a place or unit that didn't have a bunch of them lying around at all times. You couldn't throw a rock into the Inner Sphere without it hitting a planet that had a bunch of the little buggers on it.
Not a single Phoenix mech was ever out of circulation in the IS arsenal. A couple of the variants we got were not timeline accurate maybe (the SHD-5M comes to mind as either entering shortly before the clan invasion, or just after it started).
The King Crab was never extinct from IS lines either, just fielded in fewer numbers, because it was too much of a blow to lose one.
The clan buster variants are mostly not here yet. The KGC will probably be the first mech with an actual clan buster variant in the game.
Production year doesn't help, because some mechs were produced early, lost to time for a few centuries, and re-introduced later. Can get really annoying, and really tricky. Also, production date doesn't cover all the post production testing, shipping time, and production rate.
Technically, the CB went into production in 3049, however, the factories that were manufacturing it were probably producing no more than a dozen or so mechs a year, so they had to wait a couple of years till they had a decent number to introduce to the front line (you don't want to put just one out there, and watch it get focus fired to hell immediately), and then shipped what they produced to the IS. That trip took about a year as well, suddenly we know why they weren't there until 3052.
It was a very rare mech because they were slowly manufacturing them. People think mech construction is really fast, they are wrong. Most top of the line manufacturers were making a few dozen mechs in a year (varies depending on weight class too, lights can be produced a lot faster than assaults for example), at best (under perfect conditions, with multiple production lines, and plants on multiple planets, without needing to be secretive about it, or under threat of bids and invasion ... etc.)
Pretty sure CSJ would want more than 5 of those on the field, right?
Thank you, someone else that understands how factories work.
Marack Drock, on 10 November 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:
The Ebon Jaguar was made in 2049, but arrived on the battlefield at Luthien.
During Twilight of the Clans, you have multiple time that wich is reminded. Some of the protagonist are using Ebon Jaguar.
I particulary remember during a training before the Operation Serpent a gigantic battle, and the Protagonist of the chapter being impressed by the realism done, because he saw in front of him the representation of a Cauldron Borne.
And he was like << Whoaaa, Comstar really take that seriously>> and the Cauldron Borne was like << Pew pew pew! >>
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 10 November 2014 - 06:12 PM
Odanan, on 10 November 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:
We still got the Timberwolf S and the Atlas S a year before they where actually produced, so, why getting the Cauldron Born next year is any worst?
Next year, say they move a head to 3051, sure. I would rather see Light Fusion Engines given to the IS players a head of sechedual though.... 3053 for the prototypes...
We still got the Timberwolf S and the Atlas S a year before they where actually produced, so, why getting the Cauldron Born next year is any worst?
Variants I'm willing to tolerate more than entire chassis. I would still rather they stick to time-accurate variants, personally, but sadly most of them tend to be very boring, and just identical to others (hard point wise).
3
Widowmaker1981, on 10 November 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:
