29 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

there has been allot of talk about MASC recently,
and with that Talk possible Solutions to its Problems,

the main the problems with MASC is Lag and HitReg Problems,
with the current Game Engine and Net Code, any mechs moving faster than 170kph,
will have Lag and HitReg problems, so the solution is to not have mechs move faster than 170,
the Problem is with MASC some Light mechs would move Faster than 170kph and glitch out,

many have stated PGI should just release these MASC-Mechs without MASC,
or that we should get MASC as a place holder Equipment(one with no purpose),
until the system can run it, in many cases, some are for, some are against,


=MASC Solution=
Make MASC an Acceleration/Deceleration boost,
with Bonuses to Max Speed, and Reverse Speed,
but also generates its own heat as its penalty,

when activated imparts bonuses to your mechs Acceleration/Deceleration,
as well as its Max Forward and Max Reverse speed, wail also generating heat,
MASC will remain active until its turned off but also increases heat exponentially,
the heat generated wail MASC is on is identical to activating a single Flamer,
after its shut off their is a 5 second cool-down much like AC jam mechanic,

if a mechs Max Speed would be over 170kph, it goes 170kph instead,
but even if this is the case a mech will still gets its reverse boost,

MASC Activation= Flamer like Heat Generation till turned off,
...Mech Acceleration/Deceleration boost- +25%,
...Mech Forward/Reverse Speed boost- +5% or +10%,
MASC Deactivation= AC Jam like Cool-down for 5 Seconds,


MASC is a Equipment that has to be placed next to an Engine Component,
so in the CT for STD Engines or in the CT or ST for XL Engines(both Clan or IS),
MASC will weigh double what a single JumpJet weighs and takes up 2 Crit Slots,

...=Light=...=Medium=........=Heavy=...=Assualt=........=100Ton Assualt=.
........1Ton-2Crits......................2Ton-2Crits....................4Ton-2Crits...


=Thoughts=
this implementation i feel would be easy and easily balanced as well,
as Mechs with this MASC system wouldnt break the 170kph Rule,

for additional Balance PGI could make it that when MASC's deactivated,
your Mech would take some stumble damage, similar to a Mechs fall damage,
this damage would be slight but straight to your Legs internals, bypassing leg-armor,
this will simulate the damage MASC does to your legs internals servo systems in lore,

also all of MASC's Values, Stats, Cool-down, Heat, Leg-damage, Ect,
can all change, as per balancing by PGI, allowing MASC's implementation,


=Possibile MASC Mechs=

Spoiler

unfortunately Russ that the Flea is dead to him and is unlikely to be released,
as it would break the game(going faster than 170kph) and we dont really need a LCT Clone,
however mechs that have MASC and wont break MWO like the Shadow Cat are a possibility,

the Flea, the 20Ton Boost Ghost,
Endo-Structure, Standard-Armor, 97kph, MASC,
FLE-4= 1 LL, 2 SL, 1 Flamer,
FLE-15= 2 ML, 2 SL, 2 MG, 1 Flamer,
FLE-17= 2 MPL, 2 SL, 1 Flamer,

the Shadow Cat, she Ghost Sniper,
Endo-Structure, Ferro-Armor, 97kph, MASC, Jump-Jets,
Prime- 1 Gauss, 2 ER-ML,
A= 2 ER-LL, 1 SSRM6,
B= 2 LRM15, 2 ER-ML, 1 ECM,

Also Omni-Mechs can also get,
(SuperChargers)


thoughts, comments, concerns?
thanks,

Edit- Spelling,
Edit2- Refinement,
Edit3- Refinement2,
Edit4- added new Values,
Edit5- Removed Turning,
Edit6- Heat reworked,
Edit7- Full System Reworked,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 17 April 2015 - 03:14 PM.

[Hawk819]

I'm for the placeholder MASC, but due largely to rubber-banding issues brought on by the engine not being able to handle the stress. I sincerely doubt we'll get a viable system in the game. Russ did say he'd be willing to release the `Mechs with MASC just not with the system intact. All I can say is, just take a wait and see attitude towards this and see what shakes loose out of the orange juice.

[Hoffenstein]

I like this! Acceleration instead of speed is a good idea.

[Tarogato]

This acceleration implementation has been suggested before, but I can't support exactly the system you have prescribed.

- upward thrust as if jumpjets = no.
- nearly instantaneous acceleration to full speed = yes please.
- improved turning radius = yes please.
- improved twisting speed = sure why not.

I do believe MASC can be partially implemented with substitutions like these and I do think PGI should put a system like this on the test server for us to play around with.

[Andi Nagasia]

i stated it would work like Jump-Jets in the case of acting like MASC,
behaving like Jump-Jets, would allow it to climb hills and jump longer gaps,
as if with excessive speed with-out making the players mech actually go faster,
as stated, this would be primarily a forward motion, not a vertical motion,

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Yeah, I also looked at MASC in relation to the Flea and also the Firemoth.

The only headache is Speed Tweak, which I think should be redone, removed or restricted anyway.

This table in speed for a 20 ton mech, it even has TSM:

Spoiler

I had figured using MASC as a sort of 'sprint', as you mention using the Jump Jet style meter, and if the meter is exhausted the mech freezes in place until the meter begins to recharge allowing for the mech to move again.

And I'd see if the meter gets fully depleted then the legs lock up where the mech will stop moving until the meter begins to fill back up to keep it predictable.


And if MASC could be allowed to be equipped on other mechs weights, and we have the ~171 speed cap; this is the Engine Caps without Speed Tweak.

Spoiler

20 - 155 / 160 - 167.4 KPH to 172.8 KPH
25 - 195 / 200 - 168.5 KPH to 172.8 KPH
30 - 235 / 240 - 169.2 KPH to 172.8 KPH
35 - 275 / 280 - 169.7 KPH to 172.8 KPH
40 - 315 / 320 - 170.1 KPH to 172.8 KPH
45 - 355 / 360 - 170.4 KPH to 172.8 KPH
50 - 395 / 400 - 170.6 KPH to 172.8 KPH

The formulas I used to determine these speeds are:

Spoiler

Engine Rating divided by Mech Weight to get Walking MP. Then multipied Walking MP by 2 for MASC MP.

Next multiply MASC MP by 10.8 to get Speed in KPH.

So 155 / 20 = 7.75 7.75 x 2 = 15.5

15.5 x 10.8 = 167.4 KPH

---

An alternative to capping the Engine with MASC equipped is get MASC's speed boost it to the allowable speed and then compensate the difference with other quirks from the amount of speed lost.

Looking to the Firemoth, it can go 216 KPH on MASC use, so if that is capped to 171.1 KPH that is a loss of 44.9 KPH.

it could be a 26.24% speed loss, so a combination of quirks should be able to account for that percent.

An example for the Firemoth is:
Normal Speed is 162.0 KPH

MASC Speed 171.1 KPH
and
Acceleration boost 5.56%
Deceleration boost 5.56%
Reverse Speed boost 9.56%
Turn Speed boost 5.56%

[Andi Nagasia]

Praetor Knight, on 05 October 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

The only headache is Speed Tweak, which I think should be redone, removed or restricted anyway.

personally i don't have a problem with Speed Tweak,
for me its the only reason i elite a mech, but thats just me,

Praetor Knight, on 05 October 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

I had figured using MASC as a sort of 'sprint', as you mention using the Jump Jet style meter, and if the meter is exhausted the mech freezes in place until the meter begins to recharge allowing for the mech to move again.

And I'd see if the meter gets fully depleted then the legs lock up where the mech will stop moving until the meter begins to fill back up to keep it predictable.

well my idea wouldn't give you a meter, but a boost button,
when activated it would boost you in the direction you where facing,
boosting you at your mechs max speed for 50 or more meters distance,
helping with getting in and out of trouble, cross gaps, and climbing up hills,
since the boost works as a Jump-Jets hover, landing will damage legs,
your MASC would then need to cool-down for maybe 10-15 seconds,
cool-down as well as damage is up to PGI, i feel stopping abuse,

Praetor Knight, on 05 October 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

And if MASC could be allowed to be equipped on other mechs weights, and we have the ~171 speed cap; this is the Engine Caps without Speed Tweak.

Engine Rating divided by Mech Weight to get Walking MP. Then multipied Walking MP by 2 for MASC MP.

Next multiply MASC MP by 10.8 to get Speed in KPH.

So 155 / 20 = 7.75 7.75 x 2 = 15.5

15.5 x 10.8 = 167.4 KPH

An alternative to capping the Engine with MASC equipped is get MASC's speed boost it to the allowable speed and then compensate the difference with other quirks from the amount of speed lost.

Looking to the Firemoth, it can go 216 KPH on MASC use, so if that is capped to 171.1 KPH that is a loss of 44.9 KPH.

it could be a 26.24% speed loss, so a combination of quirks should be able to account for that percent.

An example for the Firemoth is:
Normal Speed is 162.0 KPH

MASC Speed 171.1 KPH
and
Acceleration boost 5.56%
Deceleration boost 5.56%
Reverse Speed boost 9.56%
Turn Speed boost 5.56%

that's allot for a system to calculate to be viable, and may cause problems,
i only say that because as a programer my self i see computing problems in that,
the reason for this would be server to client information gathering/sending problems,

Edit- Spelling,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 05 October 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 October 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

personally i don't have a problem with Speed Tweak,
for me its the only reason i elite a mech, but thats just me,

I've been spending time grinding different mechs, I know the benefits, but the Boosts we get provide too much and they make mechs way too agile in most cases. But that can be a big discussion saved for another thread.

Quote

well my idea wouldn't give you a meter, but a boost button,
when activated it would boost you in the direction you where facing,
boosting you at your mechs max speed for 50 or more meters distance,
helping with getting in and out of trouble, cross gaps, and climbing up hills,
since the boost works as a Jump-Jets hover, landing will damage legs,
your MASC would then need to cool-down for maybe 10-15 seconds,
cool-down as well as damage is up to PGI, i feel stopping abuse,

That's fine but it doesn't have the draw back that MASC has in the lore, where extended use would lock up the actuators.

Quote

that's allot for a system to calculate to be viable, and may cause problems,
i only say that because as a programer my self i see computing problems in that,
the reason for this would be server to client information gathering/sending problems,

Edit- Spelling,

Well, let me try to explain how I'm seeing this working.

Going with a Locust using a 190 rated engine that gives a Speed of 153.9 KPH and a Turn Speed of 108.92 °/s 3.31 s.
I'm not sure what the values are for acceleration, I'd have to see in-game if they might be listed.

Press the key assigned for MASC and the mech gets a boost to speed (forwards and backwards plus turn speed), acceleration and deceleration. It will basically be like Sprinting in other games.

Since speed is gonna be capped it won't be 205.2 KPH, it will be likely 171.1 KPH a loss of 19.93% of speed so Turn Speed could get boosted to ~110.00 °/s 3.20 s. Along with ~5% boosts to acceleration, deceleration and how fast you move in reverse.

So like MWO's Jump Jets you need to hold the key to get the benefit of MASC, and mounting MASC would display a meter for the player that can work for say a period of 10 seconds of use.

So moving around while holding the assigned key for 10 seconds, you get the boosts and the meter will deplete completely and the mech freezes in place until the button is released and the meter recharges.

I hope that makes it clearer with what I'm trying to describe.

[Andi Nagasia]

Praetor Knight, on 05 October 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

That's fine but it doesn't have the draw back that MASC has in the lore, where extended use would lock up the actuators

sorry if i was a little vague in the above post, the damage done from the boost, bypasses armor,
much like over heating damage does, but to your legs, damage would do a little more to one leg,
that way you will lose one leg and still be alive, vs just imploding when you use MASC too much,

Praetor Knight, on 05 October 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

I've been spending time grinding different mechs, I know the benefits, but the Boosts we get provide too much and they make mechs way too agile in most cases. But that can be a big discussion saved for another thread.

That's fine but it doesn't have the draw back that MASC has in the lore, where extended use would lock up the actuators.

Well, let me try to explain how I'm seeing this working.

Going with a Locust using a 190 rated engine that gives a Speed of 153.9 KPH and a Turn Speed of 108.92 °/s 3.31 s.
I'm not sure what the values are for acceleration, I'd have to see in-game if they might be listed.

Press the key assigned for MASC and the mech gets a boost to speed (forwards and backwards plus turn speed), acceleration and deceleration. It will basically be like Sprinting in other games.

Since speed is gonna be capped it won't be 205.2 KPH, it will be likely 171.1 KPH a loss of 19.93% of speed so Turn Speed could get boosted to ~110.00 °/s 3.20 s. Along with ~5% boosts to acceleration, deceleration and how fast you move in reverse.

So like MWO's Jump Jets you need to hold the key to get the benefit of MASC, and mounting MASC would display a meter for the player that can work for say a period of 10 seconds of use.

So moving around while holding the assigned key for 10 seconds, you get the boosts and the meter will deplete completely and the mech freezes in place until the button is released and the meter recharges.

I hope that makes it clearer with what I'm trying to describe.

i under stand and as a static variable of 5% is completely possible,
and i agree implementing that would help as well in implementing MASC,

im worried about it being a fluctuating variable(one that changes with your engine vs max speed),
the problem is the server would have to do more work to determine those non static variables,
this could cause un-intentional lag spikes when MASC is activated, possibly causing glitches,

[Leo Kraeas]

the problem is always the outliers. flea with a 285 and MASC is 306 kph. the current server can track 171 kph and that is with the HSR server side. MASC makes the outlier nearly 50% faster than the server is capable of handling. That is a huge jump, and also a pain to hit with just about any weapon in MWO. I have an idea, but i'll save it for another time (here's a hint: CCP found a solution).

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 October 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

sorry if i was a little vague in the above post, the damage done from the boost, bypasses armor,
much like over heating damage does, but to your legs, damage would do a little more to one leg,
that way you will lose one leg and still be alive, vs just imploding when you use MASC too much,

Yeah I got that, but I don't think MASC use should do that sort of damage to the legs; immobilizing a mech abusing MASC should be sufficient and it should be a relatively short period for the mech to be able to move again, if the player releases the key to activate MASC to keep the penalty from being too punitive.

Quote

i under stand and as a static variable of 5% is completely possible,
and i agree implementing that would help as well in implementing MASC,

im worried about it being a fluctuating variable(one that changes with your engine vs max speed),
the problem is the server would have to do more work to determine those non static variables,
this could cause un-intentional lag spikes when MASC is activated, possibly causing glitches,

What variable is going to fluctuate in match? Compared to Jump Jets, a MASC system using a sprint style function should not cause a problem if speed is kept capped at or near ~ 171.1 KPH. Jump Jets might have an issue with certain animations and hitboxes, but utilizing the sprint code that should already exist in the game engine shouldn't cause an issue with a capped speed.

From my understanding of the cryengine, a mech going into a match will have it's set of statistics: Max Forward Speed, Max Reverse Speed, Turn Speed, Acceleration, Deceleration and so on.

So activating MASC would only modify a few variables for as long as the sprint function is active. And that period could be set to be as short as 10 seconds.

[xeromynd]

Here's a side question:

If the engine can only handle things going up to 171kph, how do Gauss slugs fly? Do they have desync going on when they fire, or something?

(Not a sarcastic question, and not trying to derail the topic, genuinely curious)

[Nothing Whatsoever]

xeromynd, on 08 October 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Here's a side question:

If the engine can only handle things going up to 171kph, how do Gauss slugs fly? Do they have desync going on when they fire, or something?

(Not a sarcastic question, and not trying to derail the topic, genuinely curious)

It is an issue of performance such as the client communicating with the server having trouble with mechs speeds above 171. It's partly due to the amount of info tracked such as the 11 hitbox sections per mech and so on, I'm trying to find the explanations, but I'm running out of time to keep looking, but I've found these for now:

http://mwomercs.com/...evs-34-answers/ - one of the last Questions

http://mwomercs.com/...vs-48-answered/ - towards the middle

Maybe someone has them readily available, but I'm out of time right now.

Edit: k, found it! From this thread: The particular post is here.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 08 October 2014 - 10:52 PM.

[CocoaJin]

Increasing speed/acceleration and increasing turn performance simultaneously is too much. You can't "double dip" by going faster and turning tighter. At best you would be able to maintain normal rate of turn with higher run speeds, resulting a larger turning radius...but I'd be more inclined to suggest an increase in speed/velocity due to MASC should slight reduce turn rate, so turn radius would increase at a rate greater than the relative increase in speed/acceleration.

MASC shouldn't allow for super "human" maneuvering, it will inevitably result in poor syncing, rubber banding, slide-show/squirrley movement of high speed mechs...it should be used mainly as a more or less straight line boost to mech movement or light, fast mechs will be like shooting gnats.

The only way MASC should improve turning, would be a low speeds...like at or below 25-33% throttle. I this case, the use of MASC at low throttle would imply the increased forces being applied by the legs is for directional changes at the expense of speed/straight line acceleration.

[Andi Nagasia]

CocoaJin, on 17 October 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

Increasing speed/acceleration and increasing turn performance simultaneously is too much. You can't "double dip" by going faster and turning tighter. At best you would be able to maintain normal rate of turn with higher run speeds, resulting a larger turning radius...but I'd be more inclined to suggest an increase in speed/velocity due to MASC should slight reduce turn rate, so turn radius would increase at a rate greater than the relative increase in speed/acceleration.

MASC shouldn't allow for super "human" maneuvering, it will inevitably result in poor syncing, rubber banding, slide-show/squirrley movement of high speed mechs...it should be used mainly as a more or less straight line boost to mech movement or light, fast mechs will be like shooting gnats.

changed as it does make sense,
also the use for this would be a speed boost,
so your right turning doesn't make sense,

[Karl Streiger]

Every idea that will bring the Wolverine 7D or the Executioner into the game is worth to think about it.

[Kyrs]

Personnally I would Ignore the game engin 171 speed limits by giving it 1 damage leg internal per second.
The damage will limit it use to critical situations and will compensate for the fact you probably cant hit ****.

Large mech could sustain masc longer this systems which compensate for lack of speed gain

[Telmasa]

I like the overall idea; the poll could use more options.


I think you could code it by introducing special "Masc-equipped" engines, with a higher top speed-to-tonnage ratio than other engines - but with a limiter, so to speak, that prevents you from reaching that top speed unless you hit a button to "engage" MASC, causing a heat spike to your mech, and potentially leg damage if you use it for too long.

That'd be pretty neat, right?

[Pariah Devalis]

I personally think PGI is not letting us in on some of the details of why the 30% speed boost implementation won't work. This is their prerogative, of course, but it does not mean I am not curious as to what the holdup is.

I say this as the only mechs that can break the 171 barrier are the Flea and Firemoth. All the others are as fast, or slower, than existing mechs that are already in the game. If it was as simple as people engaging and disengaging the MASC to screw with hit detection, a simple internal cooldown for reactivation would solve that issue in a heartbeat.

So it makes one wonder what, exactly, is the holdup with MASC?

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 03 January 2015 - 09:03 AM.

[Koniving]

Instant acceleration? My only issue with that is that the Locusts before unlocks stop and start pretty quickly and after unlocks, 55% faster acceleration and 50% faster stopping of an already nearly instant nature on Locusts is pretty hefty.

Now assume that the Flea handles the same way and add instant acceleration MASC. ...It wouldn't be all that useful.

Honestly I think the mechs are too fast as it is, most canon mechs with MASC would be going 150 to 200-ish kph (including Locusts).

If we could do something about the perfect pinpoint convergence issues, we won't have to be so fast.

Therefore, we could run smaller engines in our mechs. Standard engines in our lights, even.
And from there, we could have a MASC that boasts up to 170+ when we want it, because we won't need it..and will even be able to carry more in our lights to heavies, too, since speed won't be that important.

Pariah Devalis, on 03 January 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

So it makes one wonder what, exactly, is the holdup with MASC?

"MASC... it... it scares the **** out of us." ~ Russ Bullock. (Town Hall Meeting after becoming independent of publisher IGP.)

It's not so much that the game can't handle mechs going that fast. That's not an issue at all. It's being able to hit mechs going that fast, and HSR lag compensation not being quick enough to make it work.

Edited by Koniving, 03 January 2015 - 09:19 AM.