28 replies to this topic

[Jarl Dane]

I was thinking about Community Warfare, and I had an idea. What if the FRR in-House units here were to adopt a very shallow faction wide-ranking system.

Now I know right now you're probably thinking, "Oh, Mech The Dane! You always be trippin'!", but heat me out!

CW is going to be ongoing, every day fighting for planets, our ability to organize as distinct units and participate in drops will be sporadic at best. This means many drops will be made up of a hodgepodge of smaller groups.

If we have a sort of basic ranking framework set up, we can use it recognize officers, leaders, lance commanders etc. In other words, the sort of people who we can feel confident letting take the lead in a drop.

I am going to go ahead and call these pan-FRR commanders ALT Commanders, ALT for Althing.

Most of us are familiar with each other, we often play together in the FRR hub. This step shouldn't be too much of a stretch. I envision a group of 12 FRR's from all over dropping together in defense of one of our worlds with probably some other factions mixed in (based off of how CW is planned to work) the FRR rank and file asking if there is any ALT Commanders present, then having an officer from one of our units introduce himself and take over the 12 man, as the others willing follow him, used to our system.

ALT Commanders/Officers/etc could be found in many, if not most games, and people defending or fighting for FRR could feel confident fighting under them.

I just barely had this idea, so there is tons that can be worked out and considered. I think maybe three ranks would suffice Company Commander, Lance Commander, Officer. If the spread is random the highest ranking person would take over. If one unit outnumbers all the others, their ALT Commander, even if his rank is lower than another groups, would take command.

That kind of stuff. We all know there are tons of FRR out there who are lone wolves. But I think it would be neat if we canonized a system like I described and eventually, through constant practice of it, got the entire FRR used to following it.

Lots needs to be discussed/considered. How do we determine who these leaders should be? How many should each unit have? How can we make sure that is isn't abused, or manipulated to the determent of the entire FRR? (For example a unit claiming all of their members are ALT Commanders of high rank, units promoting members who lack the proper lance command experience or ability, etc.)

This be my idea.

[Toaster Repair Pony]

Would units post who their officers are?

We (SoR) have something similar to this in our Organizational Chart. We have militarist ranks, but each person is set as either, Battalion/Company Commander, Company XO/Lance Leader, Mech Pilot.

This would make coordination a little bit easier. As an officer, I'm not opposed to it.

No complaining if I lead us to Valhalla though >.<

[Jarl Dane]

Alright Löjtnant Faythh,

I don't think it would work for us to just match ranks from other units directly into the ALT-Command scheme. Too much variability between units, and there isn't really any check for a unit abusing this system. For example, maybe in the SoR all the Company Commanders have truly earned that position, but then it wouldn't be exactly fair if another unit gave out a similar rank to members who hadn't really earned it (thus having the experienced SoR Commanders being equal to inexperienced members from a different unit - a situation that would hurt the FRR).

I've thought some about officer selection. In a perfect world the unit members would somehow be graded for skill and experience in leading units and the officer's chosen based off that grade. Maybe they go to some sort of intense inter-unit training for a couple of weeks (officer academy), maybe we hold a giant tournament or something to test them all, something along those lines that both proved their abilities and earned the respect of all the other units.

Unfortunately, this isn't a perfect world and attempting something like that probably isn't possible.

So, baring that method, I think the best way to determine the amount of officers from each unit would be based off of unit size. Now all we'd have to figure out is how we determine unit size =)

Forums are out. If you tried to determine the Isengrim's size based off of the amount of people who have signed up on our forums, you'd be putting us in the hundreds - which would be totally misleading. Furthermore, I even think in-game unit size would also have to be out. The Isengrim currently have around 50 members as belonging to our unit in-game, but I have yet to see a recent Isengrim event generate a turn out that even neared that number.

I think the best number would be, average number of members who show up to weekly events/practice. These are the people who you can depend on to show up at a given time, because they already do. This should not be confused with maximum number of members who can show up to a weekly event; for instance right now an Isengrim weekly practice "Iron Saturday" tops out at about 16 members. But if I personally contacted everyone, made a big deal about it, and plodded them constantly, we could probably get around 26-30 showing up. But this wouldn't be a regular or dependable occurrence (also many of those members would be rusty, inexperienced, or both).

Instead lets just focus on the average number we're getting. The amount of people who show up and play with the unit regularly. If a unit has 12 members show up every week, that means they should have a few members very familiar with running 12 man games. However a unit who normally has 8 show up, would be less experienced. Therefore we could likely get more high quality company commanders from the unit with 12 members, than the unit with 8.

If another unit regularly had 36 members show up every week, then we'd imagine that the number of qualified company commanders from that group would be three times as much as the unit which only has 12.

If we can agree to this principal, then all we have to do is come up with an agreed upon rubric. How many members from a unit that regularly has 12 show up for practice, would you expect to be skilled company commanders? I'd say probably two or three (now I know lots of units give every one a turn and let everyone get experience but usually there are a few who are the more regular shot callers). What about Lance Commanders in the same 12 man unit? Maybe we'll estimate that two members from every lance probably qualify as Lance Commanders.

So now we have from the unit who regularly has 12 man show up every week for practice, two ALT-Company Commanders and six ALT- Lance Commanders. That is 8 of the 12 members. That might be too many. But maybe it isn't, maybe that unit has 30 active players, its only the 12 who are present are on average. So now we're really looking at 8 out of 30 members, which isn't bad at all, and should make total sense.

The group who shows up with 8 guys every week might not rate a company commander, but will still have 4 ALT-Lance Commanders.

Once units apply this rubrik to thsemselves and figure out how many officers they rate (this is a number groups will generate internally, honor system here!) they can then choose who the officers for the ALT-Command will be. We can only hope they choose the best candidates, but ultimately it is up to them.

Then we'd make a list of all the ALT-Commanders, post it up here and have it pinned. Maybe we'd select some sort of FRR ALT-Command Committee to oversee it all, or just try to all coordinate it together.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 07 October 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Grim DeGrim]

As with all things, there are 4 groups:

1. Those that have the skillset and want the role.
2. Those that have the skillset and don't want the role.
3. Those that don't have the skillset, and don't want the role.
4. Those that don't have the skillset, but believe they do - and want the role.

Groups #2 and #3 are non-issue as these folks will remain silent when the call goes out. Groups #1 and #4 are pretty easy to identify as the gladly throw their names in on a regular basis.

Knowing the difference between #1 and #4 would be much easier if each Company puts forth their list of recognized Althings (whom each have no doubt proven their worthiness through feats of arms within their respective units!). What names get put forth and "why/how" they qualify can be determined by each individual unit (those that want to build their own lore can incorporate this into their structure - otherwise, just provide names).

If there are multiple "recognized" ALT Commanders, then one is chosen and the remainder fall back to lance commanders.

Brings to light that we should all be more active on the FRR Hub... (I'm guilty...)

GRIM

Edited by Grim DeGrim, 07 October 2014 - 07:37 PM.

[Atomic Funk]

Great in concept, but difficult to get all to follow.

[Toaster Repair Pony]

I'll speak from my personal experience and not speak for the SoR as a whole.

We have 3 Company Commanders that can, and have run 12's. In fact, fluffypinkbunny ran our 12 man for the PGI event earlier this year.

I know that I'm not good as a 12 mans commander, I'm better with 4's >.<

I'm sure if there was some way that we agreed on, to certify our commanders, we could come up with something. Then keep a list up here so people would know.

I'll make sure the SoR sees this thread and we'll discuss it.

[StalaggtIKE]

Seems to me a great suggestion. It has been noted. I'll help get the ball rolling.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 October 2014 - 06:53 AM.

[Jarl Dane]

Faythh, on 08 October 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

I'm sure if there was some way that we agreed on, to certify our commanders, we could come up with something. Then keep a list up here so people would know.

Yeah if you guys have any ideas, by all means post them here. What I've posted is just the best I could come up with so far. Hopefully a few more units will chime in as well.

Fri Hjert, on 07 October 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

Great in concept, but difficult to get all to follow.

I agree.
If we went around telling people that this is something they had to do, or these were leaders they had to listen to, there would probably be a lot of push-back, which is why I prefer a different sort of strategy.

My hope is that we get all the major (and minor) FRR units to sign on with this idea. Then in game unaffiliated FRR players and even players from other factions (when fighting for/with the FRR) will become accustomed to seeing those Althing FRR members use this system. Even if they have nothing to do with it they will come to realize that some sort of widely agreed upon selection process has taken place and that they are expected/encouraged to follow the recognized ALT-Commander.

I think most of them will come around to following the ALT-Commander, especially if a better alternative isn't offered. Now it probably wouldn't work if something like half the FRR units out there refused to participate. But at the moment I don't see why they would.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 08 October 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[Cerlin]

I really like this idea Mech the Dane.

I think rank inside orgs does not matter. Finding who are good drop commanders is key, and once one for the drop is decided upon everyone follow them (this following would ideally also included the commander changing composition of the team as needed.) That can be hard for some people but I am totally game to try it. I like winning and our faction representing itself well and dropping with FRR folks sounds fun to me.

[Abivard]

This is a good idea that we work together under a drop commander.
I agree that rank in a unit should not have a relationship to being an ALT drop commander
A simple ALT rank like this seems to me to be simple and to the point.

Lance Commander; A person comfortable and able to command a lance.
Group Commander; A person comfortable and able to command a group larger than a single lance but less than a full 12 man.
Company Commander; A person comfortable and able to command a 12 man or less against other 12 mans.

The exact titles could be fiddled with, ALT Commander would be fine as the generic collective title I believe.

Lack of a higher ranks presence would just mean someone would need to step up, but someone would have to do that in any case unless the group was simply messing around and could careless about winning the drop heh.

[Hug Kesse]

I like the idea too ¡¡¡

I agree with the idea that this ranges would be simple. It should be easy and fast to recognice those ALT comanders in order to save the more time to organicing the drop. I don't know how to recognice this ranks ingame easily and fast without searching in the forum for the ALT commander list. Perhaps the solution is pre-made the drop group via TS, and make the ALT rank visual in the TS user: Then they should advertise the other members of the team (not in TS group) that the drop is coordinated and organized by an ALT commander, and it would receive their orders via ingame tactical map...

Our unit used to make drops of four, with coordinate loadouts, and a leader that rotates. Ocassionally we have done drops of eigth mechs (all our unit), with coordinate loadouts, with a group, and a lance leader. So in case of implementation of this idea, we should contribute with a pair of lance leaders (who can speak and understand english). We cannot afford group or company leaders because of the language problem, and our lack of experience with those kind of combat. In this case (that an ALT leader takes the comandment of the drop), our unit members/lance will follow ALT commander orders. If we were a full lance we will retain our comunications via TS (in spanish) and our lance leader will follow, tranlate and implement the group/company ALT comander orders, as best as they can.

An issue is the language barrier. As a unit, our unit is unable to speak/understand english in TS or ingame chat. So it would difficult the follow the orders if they don't pass through a english to spanish lance leader who can translate or via ingame tactical map....

[Jarl Dane]

If we have multiple groups on teamspeak it will probably be easier to just determine via teamspeak who will lead the drop. This was more a plan of action when we've got either multiple groups who aren't coordinating or almost all randoms.

As for identifying an ALT Commander in-game, it will be up the ALT Commander to identify himself. Members of Althing units who are aware of the system should learn to ask in such a drop, "Are there any ALT Commander's here?". Eventually Lone Wolves and Non-Althing members will get in the habit of asking that same question.

"Are there any ALT Commander's here?"

Also, ALT Commander's can just announce themselves. "I am ALT-Lance Commander, I'll run the drop if there are no other ranking ALT commanders here." etc.

There would be a basic protocol for if an ALT Commander takes command and which ALT Commander takes command.

• ALT Commander only takes command if there is no clear commander for a drop. In general the group with most members in a drop should be who runs it. That might be a 4 man group, when there are bunch of one and two man groups. Or it might be a 6 man group among a 4 man group and a 2 man group, or any similar situation. In these cases there really is no need for an ALT Commander. It wouldn't make much sense for a guy by himself to try and coordinate a company's movement when there is another person with multiple people on team speak to do it.
  
• ALT Commander's of lower rank can take precedence of higher ranked ones when they have more players in their group. Same thing as above. No reason for someone with less people on teamspeak to coordinate the company movements. Obviously, if the leader of the pre-made group with the most members doesn't want the leadership role, then it would fall to the ranking ALT Commander.

It's just important to realize that ALT Commander is just the alternative option when there is no clear person to lead the drop.They aren't the mandatory drop leaders. No need for people to get big heads or go in thinking they everyone owes them their subservience.

Hug Kesse, on 09 October 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

Our unit used to make drops of four, with coordinate loadouts, and a leader that rotates. Ocassionally we have done drops of eigth mechs (all our unit), with coordinate loadouts, with a group, and a lance leader. So in case of implementation of this idea, we should contribute with a pair of lance leaders (who can speak and understand english). We cannot afford group or company leaders because of the language problem, and our lack of experience with those kind of combat. In this case (that an ALT leader takes the comandment of the drop), our unit members/lance will follow ALT commander orders. If we were a full lance we will retain our comunications via TS (in spanish) and our lance leader will follow, tranlate and implement the group/company ALT comander orders, as best as they can. An issue is the language barrier. As a unit, our unit is unable to speak/understand english in TS or ingame chat. So it would difficult the follow the orders if they don't pass through a english to spanish lance leader who can translate or via ingame tactical map....

We share the same thoughts. Your unit is an excellent example of a unit that can provide qualified ALT Lance Commanders, but not rate an ALT Company Commander. And if your guys never want to volunteer for Company Commander, due to the language barrier, then that is perfectly fine. It's a volunteer position.

I am sure, despite the language barrier, we could at least communicate to people (on the lance level) to simply follow your lance and do what they do.

[Helio]

I like the idea of FRR having more unit cohesion when units are mixed in a 12 man or any size group, however I believe to become a ALT commander, one would have to be well-known and have a good reputation within the MWO FRR community.

I don't think non-unit FRR pilot would even think of listening to a ALT commander, someone who they have no respect or friendship towards, leadership requires brotherhood. I believe the 5th Drakøns have a generally positive opinion of you, Dane. I think everyone in Drakøns would be generally accepting of this idea of FRR units coming together in times of need.


I propose we gather in the FRR hub and each unit elects who they want as a possible commanders, the commander candidates do peer-reviewed trials against each other to figure out who is better or to figure out a hierarchy depending on the trials.

The Trials

• 4 vs.4
  Each lance has one candidate, lances will be purely mixed from all FRR units, Isen, 5th Drø, 1st RDR, 1st Hussars, etc. Could impose other limits, tonnage, FRR-lore only mechs.
  
• 8 vs. 8
  More unit mixing, higher tonnage limits, testing whether the candidate can handle more than four people.
  
• 12 vs. 12
  Extreme unit mixing, allows for abstract tactics, exceptionally higher tonnage, impose restrictions up the ass that forces them to get creative, should be the ultimate challenge for the candidate.

These trials for the candidate would not only test them to their limits but also allow them to interact with the same people they might command at a later date. As well, due to all the unit mixing it will allow for pilots themselves to interact with each other from different units thus creating a team chemistry among the units that participate in this event.

P.S. Another suggestion about the naming scheme, call it. Kungsarme Coalition Forces or Kungsarme Unit Coalition, no offense but Allthing doesn't exactly strike fear in me.

Edited by Helio, 09 October 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[Grim DeGrim]

Dangerously close to the anronym KFC. Althing is with the Norse tradition and is only the title for leader warrior (if I have that right), as opposed to the name of the fighting force.

Great ideas on this thread. Looking forward to the outcome.

Edited by Grim DeGrim, 09 October 2014 - 06:06 PM.

[Jarl Dane]

Helio, on 09 October 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

I propose we gather in the FRR hub and each unit elects who they want as a possible commanders, the commander candidates do peer-reviewed trials against each other to figure out who is better or to figure out a hierarchy depending on the trials.

I like this idea in principal. But I am worried it might be too difficult in practice to see through. I think having every unit self-generate a list of who they think there best commanders are would be a lot easier for all the units to agree to, an event like your trials might discourage units from contributing. Also if not handled with extreme care could generate animosity between groups.

I think maybe after we get everything set up with the softer internally selected ALT-Commander method, we could probably go back and start doing some trials and things to test and grade individual commanders with interested teams.

But maybe I am wrong and being too cautious. If all the other units in the Althing are in favor of trials then lets do it!

Helio, on 09 October 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

P.S. Another suggestion about the naming scheme, call it. Kungsarme Coalition Forces or Kungsarme Unit Coalition, no offense but Allthing doesn't exactly strike fear in me.

Yeah, my initial post was made only moments after I had the idea. I really had not put any thought into naming conventions. Right now I am just using ALT Commander as a place holder until either it is accepted by the FRR Community, or someone comes up with a better name.

Finally, I would like some more units to weigh in on this matter in general, we can continue to theory craft but without the support of most (if not all) the units this wont really be a possibility. Perhaps the 1stRDR, Hussars, Aseveljet, Blue Vengence.. and any other active FRR units who haven't spoken up, would like to add something?

Edited by Mech The Dane, 09 October 2014 - 06:31 PM.

[Trevnor]

Okay... I read through the majority of this, but there is a single point I wish to make completely clear.

ALT Commanders would be people, with the skill and know how, that are willing to lead cross-unit drops in defense of a FRR planet. These ALT Commanders would NOT be an actual rank in-game, but a collection of people listed, in say a G-Doc, that are known and know themselves that they are ALT Commanders. Is that the gist of this entire idea? If so, I fully endorse it, and would be willing to see what I could do to help out. If not... well more discussion is something that would be in order. Sorry if this has been answered already, but I'm at work, and pressed for time ATM to read the entire thread top to bottom and in detail.

Clarification on this would be great, thanks!

[Jarl Dane]

Trevnor, on 10 October 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

ALT Commanders would be people, with the skill and know how, that are willing to lead cross-unit drops in defense of a FRR planet. These ALT Commanders would NOT be an actual rank in-game, but a collection of people listed, in say a G-Doc, that are known and know themselves that they are ALT Commanders. Is that the gist of this entire idea?

Yes that is correct. The different "ranks" exist only to help people in those cross-unit drops determine who should lead and what roles others might be qualified for. Hence the ALT Company Commander and ALT Lance Commander.

Outside of these specific situations the ALT Commanders have zero authority anywhere else.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 10 October 2014 - 07:59 AM.

[Toaster Repair Pony]

I think, for the most part, the SoR is in support of this. Further discussion is needed, but we generally seem to like the concept.

I would like to hear from the other units, like Mech said.

[Abivard]

The title isn't meant to inspire fear among our enemies, In fact it is better that the enemie remain unaware we have any command structure at all.


ALT is a good title, for english speakers or any computer user the Term ALT already conjures up the image of ALTernate,
And alternate commanders is indeed what they are. If a Unit drops as a unit, then that units commanders are obvisouly in command.

ALT commanders are for when members from multiple units are dropping together!

These are actual drop BATTLE commanders, people who know how to win fights and lead others to winning fights.
Those are the two qualifications that are needed, not a popularity contest or electioneer prowess skills.

Neither is being a great mechpilot a requirement or recommendation. There are plenty of great pilots who can't lead anything.

Finally, K.I.S.S!
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid!

[Jarl Dane]

Faythh, on 10 October 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

I would like to hear from the other units, like Mech said.

So far I believe we've heard from the SoR, Drakøns, 325th, Odin's Host and the Old Timer's guild.
I was actually gone for 6 months (if anyone even noticed) so I am not sure how many of the FRR units I remember still exist. I'll send out some PM's though and see if I can get a response.

Abivard, on 10 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

ALT is a good title, for english speakers or any computer user the Term ALT already conjures up the image of ALTernate,
And alternate commanders is indeed what they are. If a Unit drops as a unit, then that units commanders are obvisouly in command.

ALT commanders are for when members from multiple units are dropping together!

These are actual drop BATTLE commanders, people who know how to win fights and lead others to winning fights.
Those are the two qualifications that are needed, not a popularity contest or electioneer prowess skills.

Yeah, I never got into it but that was my second reason for going with ALT Commander. ALThing and ALTernative. We've all been playing with each other for a few years now. We groups that have splintered and schisimed and members who deserted or just other units who have gotten on our nerves. Misunderstandings, feuds, etc. We, like any other community, have had our fair share of it. I am not saying to just completely forgive and forget, that's not really how vikings do things

What I am saying is that when the FRR is on the line, that all those other concerns need to be forgotten. That we act as One Faction. That even if the ALT Commander turns out to be someone you would never be caught dead dropping with, that you follow their orders perfectly and do everything you can to help them win.

This entire endeavor is foundational. Maybe it is as far as the whole Althing ever goes. A group of mutually accepted ALT Commanders for cross-unit drops. Or maybe it is the first step to a more unified Faction command with endless possibilities. But it starts with us trusting each other to select ALT Commanders.