72 replies to this topic

[Zolaz]

According to Lore Mediums are suppose to be the workhorse mech. However, in MWO it appears that Assaults and Heavies are used way more often. Right now the PUG queue looks like 40% Assault, 38% Heavies, 13% Mediums and the rest in Lights.

It looks like the player base has voted to play in larger and slower mechs. When you try and drop in a queue with a larger population you dont get the mode you want and you get worse players as MM tries to make the game. Are other people not seeing this or do people just want to pilot their Assaults and Heavies that bad?

Edited by Zolaz, 07 October 2014 - 07:43 PM.

[Eddrick]

It's the later. People play Assaults because the like Assaults.

What makes Mediums so abundant in lore is WAR COST. They cheep and efficient to field.

The strength of a Medium is also it's weakness. They are like hybrids. They can fill more then one role. But, they are not very specialized. People like to specialize in games with customization. Which, works against Mediums.

[Thorqemada]

Imho its the "Go Big or Go Bust" mentality and the more of them be around the more pressure is build up to join them forces of Heavys and Assaults bcs anything lighter is Fast Food to them (to the "good" Mechs - not to Freak Mechs like Dragons).

[Pendraco]

Mediums are my favorite, I love the mobility / firepower balance. However, it would be great if people would give the heavy class a break....I like heavies as well, but with current class imbalance, I can not bring myself to take one.

[Pacifist]

I've always enjoyed mediums my first MWO Mech was the Hunch. Since clans came out I've been playing my BJ almost to the exclusion of the other 20+ mechs.
Then a few weeks ago I decided to try my Awesome again. My K/D ratio doubled. My damage per map doubled. My Cbills per match increased.

The game provides no compensation for using a 45 ton mech versus an 80 ton mech.

Edited by Pacifist, 07 October 2014 - 08:52 PM.

[Elizander]

Eddrick, on 07 October 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

It's the later. People play Assaults because the like Assaults.

What makes Mediums so abundant in lore is WAR COST. They cheep and efficient to field.

The strength of a Medium is also it's weakness. They are like hybrids. They can fill more then one role. But, they are not very specialized. People like to specialize in games with customization. Which, works against Mediums.

This does not hold true right now. Most mechs need to upgrade to Double Heat Sinks and we still have this archaic c-bill drain where Lights and Mediums cost 1.5 million to upgrade to DHS. In some cases for lights, this upgrade alone costs more than the entire Light mech itself and it puts an incredible burden on any player piloting mediums.

I do think the upgrade costs need to go down for the lower end of the scale to make them even more accessible to players. This is of course on top of other changes that will make playing a medium or light more rewarding.

[Eddrick]

Elizander, on 07 October 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

This does not hold true right now. Most mechs need to upgrade to Double Heat Sinks and we still have this archaic c-bill drain where Lights and Mediums cost 1.5 million to upgrade to DHS. In some cases for lights, this upgrade alone costs more than the entire Light mech itself and it puts an incredible burden on any player piloting mediums.

I do think the upgrade costs need to go down for the lower end of the scale to make them even more accessible to players. This is of course on top of other changes that will make playing a medium or light more rewarding.

War Cost is the total cost of everything over the course of a war.

War Cost factors, cost of replacing/repairing a destroyed Mech (Very costly to replace/repair a upgraded Mech and may not be cost efficient), rearming, if it can fill more then one role you many not need another Mech to fill a second role (Saves on pay role cost).

War Cost doesn't translate into MWO at all (It may in CW in some way. But, not likely). We don't have a set budget to work with over a long running campaign. We also, don't have to replace destroyed Mech, repair a damaged Mech, or rearm a Mech. We don't have to bargain with contractors, either.

Current in any BattleTech/MechWarrior setting, War Cost exists in lore and TT only.

Edited by Eddrick, 07 October 2014 - 09:37 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

War cost - logistics - R&R

Some system not tied to cbills would be needed to help this in CW but PGI also does not want to stop people playing thier favourite mech either its a tough one to crack

[Elizander]

Eddrick, on 07 October 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

War Cost is the total cost of everything over the course of a war.

War Cost factors, cost of replacing/repairing a destroyed Mech (Very costly to replace/repair a upgraded Mech and may not be cost efficient), rearming, if it can fill more then one role you many not need another Mech to fill a second role (Saves on pay role cost).

War Cost doesn't translate into MWO at all (It may in CW in some way. But, not likely). We don't have a set budget to work with over a long running campaign. We also, don't have to replace destroyed Mech, repair a damaged Mech, or rearm a Mech. We don't have to bargain with contractors, either.

Current in any BattleTech/MechWarrior setting, War Cost exists in lore and TT only.

I'm well aware of that but it reflects in some way. Mediums cost cheaper than Heavies and Assaults to purchase but the costs of the engine and DHS upgrades are the same across the board so they aren't as cheap as the initial purchase cost makes them out to be.

[Kiiyor]

The viability of weight classes in MWO waxes and wanes. In closed beta, when engines were un-restricted, mediums were terror incarnate. Even when the engine cap was added, Jenners and mechs like the 4SP could run rings around heavier mechs.

HSR changed that. Then, the pinpoint meta began to emerge, and mechs under 60 tonnes started to become a whole lot less viable.

Lights could still do well, but thanks to HSR, you thankfully stopped seeing LagRavens soloing an entire team. Mediums, however, were in the worst place of all. If you built for firepower, you sacrificed speed and agility, and you were doomed. If you built for speed and agility, you most likely had to run an XL, and probably ended up under-gunned anyway, and you were doomed. If you tried to restrain yourself and build in the middle, you were bland like dry toast, and ended up toast.

Then came the SHAWK, and a glimmer of hope; mediums could be very viable if they had decent hitboxes and good weapon mounts. The SHAWK has JJs that add great maneuverability, and has nice high weapon mounts. The Griff does also, but to a lesser extent.

And then, there's the DoomCrow. It doesn't have JJs, but it has great hitboxes, fantastic agility, and perfectly placed weapon hardpoints. It's proof that the actual physical design of a mech is just as important as the diversity of weaponry it can carry. Well, that and the fact that it has all the good tech, and is at the top of it's weight range.

I'm hoping that the quirk passes add some usability back to IS mediums, but I think that the physical design of most of the 'sphere old guard will always be their most limiting factor.

Still though, mediums in MWO aren't nearly as useless as they have been in every earlier installment in the franchise. Well, except for the ShadowCat.

[STEF_]

I'm a medium mech pilot and a lore fan.

Here in MWo, the problem is that we are playing only skirmish in a bunch of tiny maps. So, here, fire power and good armor are important.

Medium mechs should have better quirks, and rescale.

My fav medium is the shd, BUT if you pilot it you feel it like an heavy, and it's high like an assault, but with less fire power.

Possible solutions:
-Quirks
-Rescale
-larger maps (where having more speed make sense, above all in conquest mode)

[aniviron]

Mediums in BT are cheap and flexible, which is why every great house except Kurita favors them. (Kurita prefers lights and heavies).

In MWO, flexibility is bad. You want to be great at long range or great at short range, great in hit and runs or great in sustained combat- not some mix. a good pilot will play to the strengths of his mech, so someone with PPCs never lets enemies get near and does amazingly at long range, beating out people with mixed range builds. Someone with SRMs only does great at short range, and beats people who have mixed builds because he can deal better DPS and has better heat efficiency or speed. In MWO, you can choose your engagement situation if you're a good pilot, which effectively obsoletes the notion of a mech that is designed to fill multiple roles. No matter what you pick, someone on the other team will do whichever role you're choosing, and they are specialized in that role, so they will beat you.

The other thing that absolutely kills medium mechs in this game is their truly massive scale. Every single medium except the Blackjack, Cicada, and Hunchback is too large. The Cent is taller than the direwolf, and nearly as wide. The Treb is even taller, and not much thinner. Even the Clans get screwed- to compensate for its relatively small height (barely shorter than a Timberwolf) the Nova is actually wider than the Awesome, making it the widest mech in the game.

Unfortunately for the mediums, they only have half the armor protecting the same amount of surface area, which makes it very very easy to target a single component and destroy it, including the CT. Mediums will never be relevant in this game until they are scaled down. PGI however has said that it would take a lot of work to rescale the oversized mechs, and so are unwilling to do so- and this was back when it was just the Cent and Treb that needed to be downsized. For reasons unknown, perhaps consistency, they have continued to make the mediums huge, and with so many needing work now, there's no way they will ever be changed.

[Vassago Rain]

Mediums are physically too big to do their job. They need to be shrunk for anything to change.

[Sean von Steinike]

Vassago Rain, on 07 October 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

Mediums are physically too big to do their job. They need to be shrunk for anything to change.

And more incentives to take them (same for lights).

[Torgun]

Terrible scaling has been the bane of lighter mech for years, but still they keep churning them out oversized because it probably requires less work to do so. Bottom line, devs laziness are killing the lighter mechs.

Edited by Torgun, 08 October 2014 - 12:09 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Zolaz, on 07 October 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

It looks like the player base has voted to play in larger and slower mechs.

Larger? The Timberwolf without missile racks is the same height as a Hunchback , just a bit more wide.
Slower? Maybe a bit, but I would'n call 89 kph slow.

There you have your answer. Why play a medium mech when you can get comparable agility, speed with more armor and firepower?

I've mastered Centurion, Trebuchets, Blackjacks and Shadowhawks. I occasionally use SHD in PUG queue but when I have to pull my weight and kill those Timberwolves I use my CTF-3D or Direwolf.

Edited by Kmieciu, 08 October 2014 - 12:12 AM.

[Solomon Ward]

I wish they had not removed R&R (Repair and Rearm).

[BumbleBee]

I prefer to drive Mediums and Heavies personally, and unlike many, I have no problem with their size. If anything needs rescaling, it is light mechs, Mediums are perfectly fine IMHO.

Bigger maps would certainly help bring out more lighter Mechs, and hopefully that wont be too long of a wait. Mobility is a great thing. I try and run bigger engines in all of my IS Mechs regardless of weight (some exceptions, but rare) for just the ability to be where I need to be, when I need to be there, it really opens up your options.

People just need to learn to use them as flankers and hit and run harassers and they'll find that they are very effective.

[Kiiyor]

Vassago Rain, on 07 October 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

Mediums are physically too big to do their job. They need to be shrunk for anything to change.

+1.

Shrunk, better agility, higher arms. Tighter turns, faster acceleration and deceleration.

Lights should move like ninjas high on a cocktail of speed and miscellaneous barbituates, mediums should be nimble like welterweights when compared to the slow brutal fury of the heavyweight heavies, whilst assaults should behave like those ludicrously fat ******** that waddle their way into the UFC every now and again - the ones that throw a handful of punches in the first round before spending the rest of the fight in a sweaty, wheezing man-cuddle for the rest of the match.

[Torgun]

Kiiyor, on 08 October 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

+1.

Shrunk, better agility, higher arms. Tighter turns, faster acceleration and deceleration.

Lights should move like ninjas high on a cocktail of speed and miscellaneous barbituates, mediums should be nimble like welterweights when compared to the slow brutal fury of the heavyweight heavies, whilst assaults should behave like those ludicrously fat ******** that waddle their way into the UFC every now and again - the ones that throw a handful of punches in the first round before spending the rest of the fight in a sweaty, wheezing man-cuddle for the rest of the match.

Just have to point out you must not have watched UFC for a long time. It's been ages since I've seen those tub of lards being allowed inside the octagon. The closest thing we have is Roy Nelson, but he can actually do a few rounds without collapsing.