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Sharing Target Lock With Bap


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#1 UrsusMorologus

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 11:01 AM

I am under the impression that BAP allows you to share enemy target data that is otherwise inaccessible due to ECM cloak. Can anybody confirm or deny that this is how it works?

Assume there is a single hostile mech with ECM (not stacked) in close range (~100m). In the normal case, the enemy ECM will prevent target lock which means your teammates will not have it on their radar either. However, BAP cancels ECM in close range (150m), and that allows you to get target lock on the enemy. In turn, this allows your teammates to also see the enemy mech on their radar, allowing them to view health data or get missie lock or whatever.

Is that correct?

#2 Konril

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 02:38 PM

That's slightly misleading as stated. But functionally correct.

The important thing to realize is that an Active Probe or an ECM set to counter will basically reach out and turn off one enemy's ECM. So while that one enemy ECM unit is in your counter range, it simply does not have it's ECM cover. So functionally that means: you and your allies will be able to share targeting data even in the 180m range of the enemy, your allies can detect enemies up to the normal 800m away (+ bonuses from sensor modules and their own active probes) even if they are not targeted, and missiles will have no trouble locking on. The ECM will come back online and start generating cover again when the enemy moves out of counter range.

The exact same effect can be seen for a fixed time when the enemy ECM mech is hit with a PPC strike (for 5 seconds) or NARC missile beacon (for 30 seconds).

#3 UrsusMorologus

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:17 PM

I dont think its accurate to say that it turns off the ECM. People who are far away still wont be able to target lock the thing directly because of the range filter. The way that the counter works is that it lets ME target lock the enemy, and then other players get to see the dorito from that.

I think.

#4 Tim East

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:02 AM

Nope, it actually turns off enemy ECM if you hang around them for a few seconds.

#5 a gaijin

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 04:46 PM

View PostKonril, on 09 October 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

The important thing to realize is that an Active Probe or an ECM set to counter will basically reach out and turn off one enemy's ECM.
The exact same effect can be seen for a fixed time when the enemy ECM mech is hit with a PPC strike (for 5 seconds) or NARC missile beacon (for 30 seconds).

View PostTim East, on 10 October 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

Nope, it actually turns off enemy ECM if you hang around them for a few seconds.

Scenario:
Two enemy lights with ECM are within my BAP range and I also hit one with a PPC.
Will this disrupt both enemy mech's ECM so it is like they do not have ECM?

#6 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 04:57 PM

View PostHeroForHire, on 14 October 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Scenario:
Two enemy lights with ECM are within my BAP range and I also hit one with a PPC.
Will this disrupt both enemy mech's ECM so it is like they do not have ECM?

I think BAP only counters the closest ECM - so if you hit the further one with the PPC (and he stayed further) sure.

#7 Konril

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:24 PM

View PostHeroForHire, on 14 October 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Scenario:
Two enemy lights with ECM are within my BAP range and I also hit one with a PPC.
Will this disrupt both enemy mech's ECM so it is like they do not have ECM?

Yes. The active probe will shut off the closest active ECM to you. But it seems to be smart enough to recognize an ECM is shut off by another source and reach out to the next one. So with a PPC and active probe, it is quite possible to shut down two ECMs at once. Mind you that isn't at all easy. It can be very difficult to hit a nimble light mech with a PPC strike. The ECM will also only stay shut down from a PPC hit for 4 seconds, and the PPC itself takes 4 seconds to recharge. So shutting both down perfectly may be near impossible.

The NARC missile beacon is actually very good for this. A direct NARC hit can shut down an enemy's ECM for 30 seconds. It isn't any easier to hit a light mech with a NARC than it is with a PPC. But with the duration, the only limits to how much ECM you can disable is how much ammo you carry and how accurate you are with the shots.

#8 a gaijin

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:40 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 14 October 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

I think BAP only counters the closest ECM - so if you hit the further one with the PPC (and he stayed further) sure.

Thanks :)
Here's to hoping that scares em off and let's me fire streaks up their arses B)

#9 a gaijin

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:58 PM

View PostKonril, on 14 October 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Yes. The active probe will shut off the closest active ECM to you. But it seems to be smart enough to recognize an ECM is shut off by another source and reach out to the next one. So with a PPC and active probe, it is quite possible to shut down two ECMs at once. Mind you that isn't at all easy. It can be very difficult to hit a nimble light mech with a PPC strike. The ECM will also only stay shut down from a PPC hit for 4 seconds, and the PPC itself takes 4 seconds to recharge. So shutting both down perfectly may be near impossible.

The NARC missile beacon is actually very good for this. A direct NARC hit can shut down an enemy's ECM for 30 seconds. It isn't any easier to hit a light mech with a NARC than it is with a PPC. But with the duration, the only limits to how much ECM you can disable is how much ammo you carry and how accurate you are with the shots.

I read Shar's reply before yours and so here I am replying to you in a second post :blush:

That's very good info for a light hunting build I have planned d(`▼´)↑
Thank you!
So let's say you're a streak heavy build. BAP install is a given.
If you have room for either:
• One PPC with one TAG
-- OR --
• One NARC
Which is the better choice?

Apologies to Ursulus for hijacking the thread but the BAP discussion just got me thinking all over the place about this

#10 LT. HARDCASE

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 08:04 PM

View PostHeroForHire, on 14 October 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

I read Shar's reply before yours and so here I am replying to you in a second post :blush:

That's very good info for a light hunting build I have planned d(`▼´)↑
Thank you!
So let's say you're a streak heavy build. BAP install is a given.
If you have room for either:
• One PPC with one TAG
-- OR --
• One NARC
Which is the better choice?

Apologies to Ursulus for hijacking the thread but the BAP discussion just got me thinking all over the place about this

You plotting Ice Ferret builds too? :ph34r: But seriously, the right answer depends on what mech you're talking about, and how much tonnage is left after the Streaks.

Details?

#11 a gaijin

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 08:42 PM

View PostKevjack, on 14 October 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

how much tonnage is left after the Streaks


Clarification:

You have 7 T free and enough slots open for either:
• One PPC with one TAG
-- OR --
• One NARC with 1T ammo + one SSRM6 with 1T ammo,

Which is the better choice?

#12 M E X

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 08:54 PM

View PostHeroForHire, on 14 October 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:


Clarification:

You have 7 T free and enough slots open for either:
• One PPC with one TAG
-- OR --
• One NARC with 1T ammo + one SSRM6 with 1T ammo,

Which is the better choice?
With PPC & TAG you have UNLIMITED ammo ...
1 T NARC ammo = 12 missile beacons, 1 T SSRM = 100 missiles, this means you have ~ 16 salvos of 6 missiles for your SSRM6 with a maximum damage of 200, which you can only deal if ALL missiles hit !

Now YOU tell me which is the better choice ! :rolleyes:

#13 a gaijin

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 09:04 PM

View PostM E X, on 14 October 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

With PPC & TAG you have UNLIMITED ammo ...
1 T NARC ammo = 12 missile beacons, 1 T SSRM = 100 missiles, this means you have ~ 16 salvos of 6 missiles for your SSRM6 with a maximum damage of 200, which you can only deal if ALL missiles hit !

Now YOU tell me which is the better choice ! :rolleyes:

Personally I think the PPC is always a better choice but I wanted to get some other people's opinions :P

Thanks for your opinion, even though it was not clearly stated :rolleyes:

#14 DivineEvil

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 12:24 AM

View PostUrsusMorologus, on 09 October 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

I dont think its accurate to say that it turns off the ECM. People who are far away still wont be able to target lock the thing directly because of the range filter. The way that the counter works is that it lets ME target lock the enemy, and then other players get to see the dorito from that.

I think.

It is accurate. The thing is, you have to target an enemy to share data in any circumstances, i.e. you can only share one target at at time. ECM is irrevelant in that, though if you are under ECM disruption you just can't share any targeting data at all.

#15 Konril

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 07:06 AM

TAG (and the UAV) is a bit different than the other ECCM tools available. A TAG laser won't actually turn off an opponent's ECM, but instead bypasses it. When the TAG laser hits the target, the target is marked tagged for 1 second for LRM bonuses, but also a sensor ping is returned to the TAG's user for that same 1 second. Holding the TAG on a target will keep him lit for as long as you can keep it on target, plus one second. Unfortunately only the TAG user gets the benefit of this sensor ping, which means allies won't be able to see the opponent from just the tag. But fortunately, if the TAG user also targets (press 'R') the opponent, he shares the target with his whole team as long as he isn't within 180m (and therefore being jammed) of a hostile ECM. Since it bypasses the ECM instead of countering it, it doesn't matter how many ECMs are protecting the target. But you can only really use this on one target at a time since you are at the mercy of the targeting system for sharing data. There is also the side effect that the active ECM fields will still slow down missile locks even with the TAG laser.

With a TAG system, it's possible to quickly identify who is in an ECM covered area by sweeping the laser over the area and seeing the sensor pings. More importantly this identifies who the ECM carriers are at a distance if they're visible. Once you know who is there, you can hold the TAG on a target and press 'R' to let your team know about the target and then use your PPC or NARC to disable the ECM if you have one.

The NARC system is good. But NARC pods have a weakness. They will disable the ECM if they directly hit the enemy carrier. But if the ECM is on a different mech, the NARC pod itself ends up jammed. In this case there is no indication that the NARC pod is even there until all the ECMs have been either shut down or have wandered out of range of the NARC victim. So if you plan on using NARCs to disable ECM units, you either have to be willing to get within 200m of the ECM users to identify who they are, carry a TAG, or shoot blind and hope for the best.

So in my not-so-humble opinion, the TAG laser is the single most important ECCM device you can mount on a mech, followed by the UAV, and then the active probe.

If it's a choice of omni-pods offering 2 energy or 2 missile, I would personally choose the 2 energy to mount the TAG laser and a PPC. Of course I would also have the active probe mounted somewhere as well, as the TAG laser gets demoted to a mere laser pointer if an enemy ECM wanders too close. Using just the NARCs and active probe for anti-ECM work can get frustrating as more often than not, I'm either firing them blind or just not firing them.

#16 LT. HARDCASE

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 01:17 PM

View PostHeroForHire, on 14 October 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:


Clarification:

You have 7 T free and enough slots open for either:
• One PPC with one TAG
-- OR --
• One NARC with 1T ammo + one SSRM6 with 1T ammo,

Which is the better choice?

Well, I'd take a couple SSRM4s, 2T ammo, and the TAG.

Edited by Kevjack, 15 October 2014 - 01:18 PM.


#17 9erRed

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 03:39 AM

Greetings all,

The original question was about sharing the target data of enemy sighted Mech's.

- BAP may discover the target, PPC's, TAG, NARC, counter ECM may also neutralize the area of influence for the Enemy Mech.

But, the BAP is not what's sharing the info, the C3/C1 comms is what actually sends the enemies location.
- Direct line of sight (LOS) to friendly Mech's is normally how the info gets sent back.

This should be tested, with friendly 'on comms' players spread out, with the lead Mech gaining a target lock on the enemy. The remaining friendly Mech's spaced, some in LOS of the spotter and others not. Test the indicated enemy target to see if this is indeed how the lock is passed back to other Mech's. (or has PGI just given every Mech a C3 data link to everything spotted?)

- With the fluid movement of both Enemy and Friendly Mech's it sometimes appears that any Enemy sighted is gained by all, this is not always the case. I have heard on 'Ts comms' one team Pilot call out a target indicator and it not be on my sighted selection of targets. If this is indeed correct, then the line to that target, passed through Friendly mechs, must have been broken at some point before it reached my Mech's location.
( this is not from an Enemy ECM in my range, disrupting the info. It was within the first 2mins of the match and the target was from a light, fast, forward spotter)

9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 16 October 2014 - 03:43 AM.


#18 Tim East

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 11:29 AM

View Post9erRed, on 16 October 2014 - 03:39 AM, said:


But, the BAP is not what's sharing the info, the C3/C1 comms is what actually sends the enemies location.
- Direct line of sight (LOS) to friendly Mech's is normally how the info gets sent back.


No. I get targeting data on mechs all the time when I'm running a long flank by myself with zero friendlies in LOS. I run my Locust behind enemy lines in a long circle because I can get to their LRMers that way, and I can hit "R" to lock what my allies have locked.

#19 mailin

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 03:01 AM

One problem with UAV is that it doesn't share target data. It only tells you the enemy position. Also, locking for lrms under a UAV takes a LOT longer than via tag because the ECM is still in effect. Also, whereas the UAV has a time limit, may be destroyed, is stationary, and doesn't prioritize targets, I really prefer the usefulness of TAG over all of the other methods of countering ECM.
I'd have to say that my peferences are TAG>BAP>NARC>ECM set to counter>UAV>PPC.





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