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Ppc/erppc Speed/vs/acceleration!


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Poll: Change the way PPC/ERPPC/CERPPC function? (160 member(s) have cast votes)

Add "Acceleration" to PPC projectiles

  1. Yes (46 votes [28.75%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 28.75%

  2. No (114 votes [71.25%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 71.25%

Adjust PPC speeds up around 1100-1200 Mps

  1. Yes (92 votes [57.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 57.50%

  2. No (68 votes [42.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.50%

Reduce PPC/ERPPC/CERPPC heat?

  1. Yes (39 votes [24.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.38%

  2. No (121 votes [75.62%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 75.62%

Add a "Charging" mechanic to PPC/ERPPC/CERPPC

  1. Yes (38 votes [23.75%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.75%

  2. No (122 votes [76.25%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 76.25%

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#1 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:58 AM

Since the PPC speed nerf, it seems like less and less players even try to use this weapon anymore.

With its current speed hovering right around the AC-10's Velocity, it has really lost its ability to be effective against targets farther than 350 meters away.

So I was thinking, is there room for adjustment that will retain the De-Sync method of controlling AC-5/Gauss + PPC meta, but also make the weapon viable again for its intended role of long range sniping.

The first thing that came to mind, was "what if PPC's used Acceleration?".

If the PPC started at 700 MPS at the muzzle, and accelerated up to 1500 MPS as it reaches its optimum range, that could very much restore its ability to hit long range targets again without getting rid of the Desync balance for ballistics.

What this does effectively is to balance out most ranges, at 700MPS at muzzle its going to react like an AC-20 making brawling range require skill, at 250 meters it should be close to or surpassing AC-10 speed balancing that range bracket, at 550+ meters it should be around AC-5 velocity, and beyond 700 meters it will be approaching speeds that makes sniping with it possible again.

Depending on its acceleration curve, even if its static acceleration, it regains its use in all of those range brackets, but should not provide that synchronized PP FLD accuracy that it once had when matched with any Ballistic.

Acceleration could take the "easy button" away from the PPC's, and still making them deadly and effective in most range brackets.

I think this could really be a worthwhile change to explore in order to return the weapon to being a viable option again.

Now I'm not sure what MWO's engine is capable of, or if this will break HSR in some way, but I think its worth looking at.

What do you guys think of this?

I also added in some other options to the Poll, so that if you're not that fond of the idea, there may be something else you feel could work on a more traditional level to make the PPC worth bringing to battle again.

Edited by Mister D, 15 October 2014 - 08:07 PM.


#2 Myke Pantera

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:25 AM

This will never happen, but i would like to see something like this for PPCs

IS ER PPC:
  • Increase speed again
  • Add minimum range (maybe ramped like CLRM)
  • Keep heat or lower a little (subject to balancing)
  • tab-to-charge. Meaning, you hit the fire button, wait n milliseconds (n being around 100-300, but distinct from Gauss Chargeup which is 750ms atm) and the PPC goes off automatically.
IS PPC:
  • keep slower speed
  • REMOVE minimum range
  • keep heat
  • tab-to-charge, but a little longer as with ER PPCs (200-500ms)
This way the ER PPC can be used for sniping again, and the regular one is more of a close/mid-range weapon.

edited: To integrate Koniving's wisdom about weapon systems.

Edited by Myke Pantera, 12 October 2014 - 10:49 AM.


#3 Eddrick

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 06:55 AM

View PostMyke Pantera, on 10 October 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

Add automatic chargeup. Meaning, you hit the fire button, wait n milliseconds (n being around 300-500, but distinct from Gauss Chargeup which is 750ms atm) and the PPC goes off automatically.

Visual aid to help show what it could look like


#4 WarHippy

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:14 AM

A boost in speed to around 1000-1200 seems reasonable as does a small decrease in heat, however I do not want to see a charge up mechanic of any kind added.

Edited by WarHippy, 10 October 2014 - 08:14 AM.


#5 Eddrick

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:43 PM

Break physics for balance? Since this is a video game, I'm not going to argue that part. If this were more of a simulation then a FPS? Then I would urge the need to stick to physics.

#6 Darth Futuza

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:51 PM

I think PPC/ER-PPCs just need to do more damage, speed is fine if you practice with it.

#7 Koniving

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 03:20 PM

View PostMyke Pantera, on 10 October 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

Add automatic chargeup. Meaning, you hit the fire button, wait n milliseconds (n being around 300-500, but distinct from Gauss Chargeup which is 750ms atm) and the PPC goes off automatically.


"Tap to charge" is another way of saying it.

Now, the big stickler here is that the lore is reverse.

Regular PPCs have a long charge up, but have a field inhibitor that you can turn off to have "no" charge up (at the risk of the weapon feedback blowing up in your face (for 10 damage) and extra heat). They also do NOT have a minimum damage range, just a minimum accuracy range which represents trying to hit something up in your face after the charge up. (Ever tried to hit a light with a charge up gauss rifle in MWO? Not easy, is it?)

ER PPCs have the extra heat because its charge up is virtually non-existent. (If regular PPCs have a 0.5 second charge up, then ER PPCs would have a 0.1 to 0.15 second charge up). This and the range makes it worth enduring the extra heat when they could so easily run the much colder PPCs.

----------

I voted as follows:
Acceleration? Yes. This was in the original closed beta and it was a wonderful mechanic.
Adjust speed? Yes. This desyncs it from the new trend of AC/10 + ER PPC rigs doing 40 damage of pinpoint.
Reduce heat? NO. (Instead reduce the heat of small to medium beam weapons, they are HOTTER than canon!).
Charging mechanic? Yes. This was in the original Mechwarrior 5 design video, is part of the lore, and it belongs there / here.

(Edit the video keeps disappearing. :( )

Now on a side note about reducing heat..

Consider this: Supposedly in Battletech the longer a PPC variant charges, the more favorable it is for the user's temperatures and the safer it is.

Before I continue, 10 heat spikes to 33.33% heat for 30 threshold.

The Kinslaughter is a PPC variant by Krupp-Stellar Technologies, Inc. that is known for a very short charge time. Its most noteworthy issue is that it's obscenely hot and known for causing the pilot to pass out. A fluff rule adjustment (to represent its reduced time to charge) is to have a 30 meter minimum range accuracy penalty.

A real quick demonstration. Lets say it has a 0.20 second charge up. It generates 2 heat during the charge up. This example mech has 10 SHS.
0 seconds. Pilot clicks fire. Charge begins.
0.2 seconds. 2 heat generated. 0.02 heat cooled. 1.98 heat remains. 6.6% threshold. (PPC fired. + 8 heat. = 9.98 heat = 33.266666666667% of threshold).
1 second, 0.98 heat cooled. 9 heat remaining.
2 seconds. 1 heat cooled. 8 heat remaining.26.666666666667%
5 seconds (3 heat cooled over the 3 seconds leading to here). 5 heat remaining. 16.67% heat.
etc.

Now, the Lord's Light is a specific PPC variant by Alshain Weapons that takes 3 seconds to charge up. Each second during charge-up it generates 1 heat.
It looks like this. This is for a 10 single heatsink mech.
0 seconds. Pilot clicks fire. Charge begins.
1 second. 1 heat is generated. 1 heat is cooled. 0 heat.
2 seconds. 1 heat is generated. 1 heat is cooled. 0 heat.
3 seconds. 1 heat is generated. 1 heat is cooled. 0 heat. PPC has finished charging, FIRES! Spike of 7 heat. (23.33% heat; compare to 'instant fire' PPC heat of 33.33% threshold in 30 threshold.).
4 seconds. 1 heat is cooled. 6 heat. 20% threshold.
5 seconds. 1 heat is cooled. 5 heat. 16.67% threshold.
Etc. until cold.
Note: since this example was from tabletop with a lore-based Lord's Light PPC, that's pretty sweet.
A standard tabletop PPC (without variants or breakdowns and without cooling) is 33.33% heat for one shot.

For an obvious reason, the lore and such of these PPCs are associated with a damage/heat rating for 10 seconds and thus the long charge up times are perfectly acceptable there. In MWO the "time" index most weapons follow is 4 seconds. 3 second charge up out of 10 seconds in tabletop is 1.2 seconds out of 4 seconds for MWO. It's kinda harsh, but we're not likely to see weapon variants. We will more likely a one-size fit all charge.

Something similar can be done in MWO for the PPC and ER PPC.
If it takes 0.5 seconds to charge, perhaps it makes 2 heat then. (1 heat per 0.25 seconds of charge up).

10 DHS (250 engine or higher, elites added, 2.3/sec cooling rate; note MWO's threshold raises with heatsinks and there's a 20% increase to threshold causing the 10 DHS stock threshold of 50 to rise to 60; twice that of tabletop. This is why the percentages are 'odd' here). Note a normal PPC in this case on MWO would spike 16.67% heat.
0 seconds. Charge begins.
0.5 seconds. 2 heat generated. 1.15 heat cooled. 0.85 heat. Fires. + 8 heat (8.85 heat at this 0.5 second interval). [14.75% heat, so it is reduced in the heat spike due to the charge mechanic.]
1 second. 7.7 heat. 12.83%
2 seconds. 5.4 heat. 9%.
3 seconds. 3.1 heat. 5.1667% heat.
Etc.

TL;DR the maths...
Charging makes the weapon colder, because some of the heat is generated during the charge, reducing the final spike of heat. This is the canon way of dealing with the high heat of the PPCs / ER PPCs.

This is also why Clan LRMs seem colder, the heat isn't done all at once but per missile, so the ghost heat though much higher than for the IS, is almost completely unnoticed when firing 4 LRM-15s at once.

Edited by Koniving, 12 October 2014 - 09:54 PM.


#8 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:58 PM

I'm on the fence about any charge up mechanic.

On one hand it could balance out the PPC's both skillwise and for Desyncing the AC/Gauss meta, as long as it gets its speed back, thats the one condition I think most would agree with, but doing groups could get confusing fairly quick.

And on the other hand, without that mechanic applied, we have to look for alternative ways to balance it, which is why we have Ghost Heat, speed nerfs and other questionable systems in place to deter it.

Edited by Mister D, 10 October 2014 - 09:46 PM.


#9 LiGhtningFF13

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 10:14 PM

As and old PPC friend I agree to some points here. Less heat more speed!

#10 Bespoke Cheese Cake

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 04:06 AM

I remember in older games the ppc's used to cause an over load to mech systems hit by them, resulting in a radar and targeting failure for about 3 seconds.

#11 mercenarie

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 05:07 AM

View PostBespoke Cheese Cake, on 11 October 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

I remember in older games the ppc's used to cause an over load to mech systems hit by them, resulting in a radar and targeting failure for about 3 seconds.


If you remember playing MWO in closed beta, when you got hit by PPC your screen became very dark and you couldn't see almost anything (except glowing mechs :D)

Edited by mercenarie, 11 October 2014 - 05:08 AM.


#12 Zyllos

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 11:38 AM

I literally just posted this in another thread about this issue:

View PostZyllos, on 11 October 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Honestly, the regular PPC is a medium range weapon, so if your sniping with it, that is your fault. Try using the weapon around 400m. At 0.5s, you can easily hit a target. Of course, everyone in this game thinks hitting the target means only hitting the location you want to hit, hence why some say Lasers are better because you can guarantee damage onto a location you want.

The ER PPC, one the other hand, is a sniping weapon. While it does have a faster projectile, it's no where near fast enough for it's range and heat.

So, honestly, this is what I would do to balance PPC and ER PPC:

PPC: Drop projectile speeds to 800m/s
ER PPC (and C ER PPC): Increase projectile speed to 1200m/s
Increase cooldowns of each weapon by 1.0s.

This will make the cooler, regular PPC a medium ranged weapon with a very close range drawback. The ER PPC, which Clans only have, will be sniper ranged weapons and with a very high speed and heat with no close range drawback.

Both weapons will have a 0.675s delay to reach a target at maximum optimal range.


#13 Jeon Ji Yoon

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 07:32 PM

View PostMyke Pantera, on 10 October 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

  • Add minimum range (maybe ramped like CLRM


They didn't do less dmg closer it was supposed to be EM interference if you did, so to add an effect on your mech like u were in an enemy ECM field or something like that?

#14 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 05:36 AM

So the guys that voted no for Acceleration, explain that to me in detail, what would be so bad about that and why didn't it work in the beta?

#15 Myke Pantera

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 10:46 AM

View PostKoniving, on 10 October 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

"Tap to charge" is another way of saying it.

*lots of wisdom concerning PPC cannon


You got me there! I have to admit that i'm coming from the books and not from the TT, so lorewise and canonwise I don't know too many things. But what you are saying makes sense, so i'll edit my above post to add "tab-to-charge" to the PPC, still i'd like min range removed from the regular one and added to the ER one. With "tab-to-charge" in place for the regular PPC there is no need to increase heat, as you've explained in great detail!

View PostJeon Ji Yoon, on 11 October 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

They didn't do less dmg closer it was supposed to be EM interference if you did, so to add an effect on your mech like u were in an enemy ECM field or something like that?

I am at a loss here... Is this a statement or question? It reads like a statement, but this question mark at the end of the sentence irritates me ^^

My thought is that the ER PPC should be a sniping weapon. A ramped min range would help defining this version as sniper version, but the current speed is too low to be able to reliably hit at the distance, and the heat penalty is still quite strong. So either higher speed, or acceleration are required to enable the sniping aspect of this weapon again. This may not be lore, but currently it's: ER PCC => All ranges, but way to hot. PPC => Crappy ranges, and still very hot.

View PostMister D, on 12 October 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

So the guys that voted no for Acceleration, explain that to me in detail, what would be so bad about that and why didn't it work in the beta?

It's either speed+charge or acceleration+charge for me. I have no idea how hard the leading aspect will be with acceleration, since i didn't play with this dynamic, so i though charge is handicap enough so that plain speed would work well enough.

#16 Koniving

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 10:51 AM

^_^
Yeah with the tap to charge (and it fires when it's done on its own) that covers the PPC's minimum range accuracy penalty completely. Much like a Gauss rifle has a 60 meter minimum range accuracy penalty.

ER PPC having the much shorter charge along with its longer range would give you reason to want to use it even if both types of PPCs traveled at the same speed. And either way I definitely agree they are traveling far too slow. Then again I also think ACs (the 20 and 10) are flying through the air too slow as well.

#17 Koniving

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 11:13 AM

I'm personally still up for acceleration. I loved the effect.
I don't know about putting it on standard PPCs, it'd make sense but still.

Now on ER PPCs you can use this to differentiate IS and Clan. Clan + targeting computer = extra speed which is a bit of a problem.

So here's a very basic idea.

Lets assume a normal PPC goes 1,000 meters/sec, meaning in half a second it'll reach its optimum range (which is good because honestly charge + that speed = the same time to hit the target as currently with the slow speed, but you'll still be more likely to hit the target).

Now, lets assume that the IS ER PPC goes 1,300 meters per second. Quite a bit faster, quite useful. Will reach its ideal range with ease.
Now lets assume that a normal Clan ER PPC goes 1,300 meters per second.
Wait... they're identical and the Clan one does more damage. ZOMG, the world is going to end!
Even if both have an identical firing delay in a charge-timer, it probably isn't enough, especially considering that Clan targeting computers give it additional speed. (It does.)

So what shall we do? Make them accelerate at different rates. Say the IS ER PPC starts at 900 meters / second and over the first second then accelerates to 1,300 meters/sec.

Now say the Clan ER PPC starts at 600 meters / second (variable number, it's just Clan ER PPCs were always depicted as slow moving in past MW games) and over the course of one second, accelerates to 1,300 meters/sec.

Of course take into account that for a Clan it'll be easier for small and fast units to dodge at close range, but a Mark II targeting computer will bring it up to 639 meters/sec to start and 1,384.5 for a simple 2 ton computer.
Meanwhile a targeting computer Mark VIII... it'd start at 690 right out of the barrel and accelerate to 1495 meters/sec.

(Current values:
ER PPC, 950 IS.
ER PPC, 950 Clan.
ER PPC, 1011.75 Clan + Targeting computer II
ER PPC, 1092.5 Clan + Targeting Computer VIII.
)
>.>; So acceleration could really add some balance here without dwarfing actual speeds.

#18 Jeon Ji Yoon

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 12:09 PM

View PostMyke Pantera, on 12 October 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:


I am at a loss here... Is this a statement or question? It reads like a statement, but this question mark at the end of the sentence irritates me ^^



Its what is known as a "run on sentence." I should have had a period after the statement and asked the question second, you darn grammar National Socialist (because it won't let me say the combination of those two words...) who ignored what I was saying comepletely.

Edited by Jeon Ji Yoon, 12 October 2014 - 12:10 PM.


#19 Wolfways

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 03:43 PM

Imo there was nothing wrong with PPC's before the speed nerf and they were only nerfed because they work well alongside the only OP weapon in the game, AC's.
PGI should put ER/PPC's back the way they were and reduce the ROF of AC's.

#20 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 03:46 PM

Exactly Koniving, those subtle differences can make a big impact.

I think quite honestly that any change brought up gets the involuntary negative reaction, like when somebody sets a plate of broccoli in front of you, the first reaction is "whats this crap?" even though its good for you.

You can lead a horse to water.....

What I think Acceleration could bring, its some subtle balance.

Starting at a low speed, means close range PPC will react like the AC-20, at 400 meters it should react like an AC-10, past that it should be reacting like an AC-5 for long range, but it will not be syncing up perfectly when matched to any AC, which I think is the key issue.

Yes, there will be a learning curve to it that will need to be adapted. But adding any skill factor on top of the most powerful weapon in the game is always a good plan IMO.

Just like the charging mechanic would do, just add another layer of skill to be proficient at it.

As the poll has shown, a majority of people want a speedup in one way or another.
I would prefer acceleration myself.





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