49 replies to this topic

[DI3T3R]

I see 5 basic options:

* Customize them like Clan-Omnimechs, but since they can't exchange Omnipods, this would severely limit the possibilities.

* Customize them like Clan-Omnimechs and give them some performance-enhancing quirks to balance the limited flexibility.

* Customize them like IS-Mechs, but since they have Clan-weapons and can fiddle with basically all of the other equipment, this would make Clan-Secondliners extremely overpowered.

* Customize them like IS-Mechs, but give them performance-decreasing quirks to offset the huge firepower.

* Come up with a third customization-system.

[Ozric]

Half way between the two I guess. More-or-less like IS mechs but with a few more restrictions.

[Bront]

If they didn't get hardpoint growth like IS mechs, it might not be too bad to let them otherwise be like IS mechs. Maybe limit Endo/FF changes as well (well, at least Endo, FF is designed to be easy to swap out). But yeah, not sure a great way to do it right now. It might change if they wait till the IS manages to catch up a bit tech wise. Besides, second line mechs didn't see a lot of action till much later.

[Kain Demos]

Locked engines, hardpoints, DHS-only.

Let them upgrade to FF or Endo.

[Alek Ituin]

Clan second liners suck (except for the Loki). That's kind of why they're second line Mechs. Designed to sweep in after the main force and clean up what's left while the front advances further.

Don't make them worse than they already are just because they're Clan mechs. Keep construction rules simple and consistent across the factions and chassis types. If the Second liners are OmniMechs, treat them like other OmniMechs, but if they're BattleMechs like the IS then treat them as such.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 22 October 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Honestly, I say just make them omni mechs.

[KamikazeRat]

Rouken, on 22 October 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

Honestly, I say just make them omni mechs.

i don't like this because eventually as the IS catches up in tech they get omnimechs and i would like to see them be true omnimechs. making Clan=omnimech, would prevent this. so i say battlemech is a battlemech, omni is omni. regardless of tech origin.

although there does need to be some balancing mechanism to make up for the lighter/smaller tech that the clans have.

[VanillaG]

• Fixed structure, armor, and heatsink. Not really an issue because most come with Endo and/or FF and all have DHS.
  
• Fixed or partially fixed ES and/of FF crits. You can have all of the crits predefined or say half static and half dynamic.
  
• Can swap engine.
  
• Can mount extra HS in the engine.
  
• Can change armor amount but not type.
  
• Clan weapons only.

[Moogles]

Alek Ituin, on 22 October 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Clan second liners suck (except for the Loki). That's kind of why they're second line Mechs. Designed to sweep in after the main force and clean up what's left while the front advances further.

Don't make them worse than they already are just because they're Clan mechs. Keep construction rules simple and consistent across the factions and chassis types. If the Second liners are OmniMechs, treat them like other OmniMechs, but if they're BattleMechs like the IS then treat them as such.

Methinks you're confusing second line 'Mechs with the second Clan pack.

[Bront]

Alek Ituin, on 22 October 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Clan second liners suck (except for the Loki). That's kind of why they're second line Mechs. Designed to sweep in after the main force and clean up what's left while the front advances further.

Don't make them worse than they already are just because they're Clan mechs. Keep construction rules simple and consistent across the factions and chassis types. If the Second liners are OmniMechs, treat them like other OmniMechs, but if they're BattleMechs like the IS then treat them as such.

Um, the Wave-2 mechs are still OmniMechs. Clan Secondliners are not. They're mechs like the Kodiak, Hunchbank IIC (and other IIC mechs), and such.

[Metus regem]

Alek Ituin, on 22 October 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Clan second liners suck (except for the Loki). That's kind of why they're second line Mechs. Designed to sweep in after the main force and clean up what's left while the front advances further.

Don't make them worse than they already are just because they're Clan mechs. Keep construction rules simple and consistent across the factions and chassis types. If the Second liners are OmniMechs, treat them like other OmniMechs, but if they're BattleMechs like the IS then treat them as such.

I'm not sure you know what the second line units are?

I can tell you that the Kodiak is a fantastic, and terror inducing 100 ton Clan behemoth, that would make an Atlas smell like Inner Fear for weeks on end at just the sight of it.

Most second line mechs for the Clans are battle mechs, that had a time to have their kinks worked out, so they only have 1 or 2 time line correct versions right now.

If you mean wave 2 mechs for MWO, well the jury is still out on them.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Really not sure what they can do with them. They've seriously borked the whole Clan omnipod situation which almost excludes them being able to do second line mechs without serious balance changes.

Knowing PGI, they'll make a whole new set of weapons specifically for them kind of like how they did with the cLBX as a fast track way to dealing with it.

[FupDup]

In summary, it's a fustercluck. There is no silver-bullet sure-shot was to do this.


Having them behave like Battlemechs are supposed to would probably be overpowered as crap.

Having them act like Omnimechs would make them...not Battlemechs. Battlemechs and Omnimechs aren't supposed to be the same in terms of construction. That's what makes them not the other.

Having them act like Omnimechs with even more restrictions would make most of them inferior to their Omni brethren.

Edited by FupDup, 22 October 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

FupDup, on 22 October 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

In summary, it's a fustercluck. There is no silver-bullet sure-shot was to do this.


Having them behave like Battlemechs are supposed to would probably be overpowered as crap.

Having them act like Omnimechs would make them...not Battlemechs. Battlemech customization =/= Omnimech customization, nor should they be the same.

Having them act like Omnimechs with even more restrictions would make most of them inferior to their Omni brethren.

My thoughts exactly. If people think the Timber Wolf sucks, imagine a Grizzly with full customization, including being able to change around the XL engine.

It'd outclass all heavies and most assaults. Not sure a 400XL would help a Kodiak much.

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 22 October 2014 - 01:42 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

KamikazeRat, on 22 October 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

i don't like this because eventually as the IS catches up in tech they get omnimechs and i would like to see them be true omnimechs. making Clan=omnimech, would prevent this. so i say battlemech is a battlemech, omni is omni. regardless of tech origin.

although there does need to be some balancing mechanism to make up for the lighter/smaller tech that the clans have.

Why would that stop IS mechs from being omni? Also, why would IS want their mechs to be omni?

[FupDup]

Rouken, on 22 October 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Why would that stop IS mechs from being omni? Also, why would IS want their mechs to be omni?

In BT, being an Omni was mostly an upgrade (assuming other factors being equal) to being a normal Battlemech, aside from being more expensive. Omnis got to customize their guns on the fly and repair their pods much easier, whereas BMs had to get sent in for lengthier and costlier refits.

But in MWO, open-ended Battlemechs are actually better, assuming equal technology base (i.e. Clan normal mechs in MWO > Clan Omnis in MWO).

[keith]

Kain Thul, on 22 October 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Locked engines, hardpoints, DHS-only.

Let them upgrade to FF or Endo.

can't lock the engines.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grizzly
heres a nice second lines clan mech meant for backline galaxys. a 280 std in a 70 toner. thing would be doa added the pgi hard locking jjs. clan second line mechs need something

[ShadowWolf Kell]

FupDup, on 22 October 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

In BT, being an Omni was mostly an upgrade (assuming other factors being equal) to being a normal Battlemech, aside from being more expensive. Omnis got to customize their guns on the fly and repair their pods much easier, whereas BMs had to get sent in for lengthier and costlier refits.

But in MWO, open-ended Battlemechs are actually better, assuming equal technology base (i.e. Clan normal mechs in MWO > Clan Omnis in MWO).

They could easily solve that by adding in a cost per customization to Battlemechs like there is supposed to be. I don't think that'd go over very well though but yes that pretty much sums it all up.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

FupDup, on 22 October 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

In BT, being an Omni was mostly an upgrade (assuming other factors being equal) to being a normal Battlemech, aside from being more expensive. Omnis got to customize their guns on the fly and repair their pods much easier, whereas BMs had to get sent in for lengthier and costlier refits.

But in MWO, open-ended Battlemechs are actually better, assuming equal technology base (i.e. Clan normal mechs in MWO > Clan Omnis in MWO).

I know, thats why it wouldn't make sense to have the limitations of being an omni and have IS equipment.

[Metus regem]

FupDup, on 22 October 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

In BT, being an Omni was mostly an upgrade (assuming other factors being equal) to being a normal Battlemech, aside from being more expensive. Omnis got to customize their guns on the fly and repair their pods much easier, whereas BMs had to get sent in for lengthier and costlier refits.

But in MWO, open-ended Battlemechs are actually better, assuming equal technology base (i.e. Clan normal mechs in MWO > Clan Omnis in MWO).

Yea, that is why I tilt at the windmill that they got it backwards in MWO.... But I understand the need to make them different, I just think that Battle Mechs have too much flexibility.

Engine and structure material should be locked on battle mechs, meaning if you want a bigger engine, Xl engine or Endo Steel you need to go to a variant that has them.

Omni-mechs shouldn't have hard points, but keep locked armour, engine, structure material and some fixed equipment depending on what the base unit has, beyond that, it's free rain with the pod space.