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Useful Ppcs


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#1 DeathlyEyes

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:57 PM

PPCs at range are nearly useless. ER Large are pretty much the only viable long range weapon besides LRMs. The slow speed makes them very easy to dodge at range. Combine this to hit reg issues and ER Large are almost always a better option. Increasing regular PPC speed to 1000 and ER PPC to 1100 or 1200 would solve this issue. I would also not be against increasing the cool down time for the PPC to 5 or even 6 seconds to force them into a long range role.

Edited by DeathlyEyes, 22 October 2014 - 09:57 PM.


#2 XphR

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 10:40 PM

Someone is going to come in and tell you that:

Lasers have to be kept on target for duration

&

PPCs have only to make contact



Side question, why should an ERPPC be slower than a PPC?
^My brain was offline for number recognition....

Edited by XphR, 23 October 2014 - 09:52 AM.


#3 Bad Andy

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:09 PM

Because sniping is broken in this game without cone of fire

#4 Lily from animove

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 01:30 AM

View PostDeathlyEyes, on 22 October 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

PPCs at range are nearly useless. ER Large are pretty much the only viable long range weapon besides LRMs. The slow speed makes them very easy to dodge at range. Combine this to hit reg issues and ER Large are almost always a better option. Increasing regular PPC speed to 1000 and ER PPC to 1100 or 1200 would solve this issue. I would also not be against increasing the cool down time for the PPC to 5 or even 6 seconds to force them into a long range role.


Why don't you change playstyle and use PPC's ERPPC's like energy based AC10's? I use them that way in my kfx, adder and a stormcrow. Works well works nice. Not superepic, but far away from useless. vs lights I preffer ppc's over lasers. because laserhitreg is horrible broken.

#5 reaverOfCheesecake

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:52 AM

View PostBad Andy, on 22 October 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

Because sniping is broken in this game without cone of fire


Cone of fire would be next to nil (at least for the distances involved in MWO) for a machines that holds it's weapon almost completely steady, and has systems which counteract the affects of weapon shock/recoil.

In your favor though (and i assume that you are coming from a balancing perspective), you could argue that the weapon convergence system should be more complicated, i.e. weapons converge to the distance of your target (through pressing "R"), which gets around the tracking issue between long distance background, and only converges on distance registered by the hud, in cases where you have no target selected. I believe this would be a better nerf than introducing cone of fire (which i don't believe is quite suited for the theme of this game).

I think i do understand where you are coming from though.

#6 Koniving

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 05:11 AM

View PostDeathlyEyes, on 22 October 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

PPCs at range are nearly useless. ER Large are pretty much the only viable long range weapon besides LRMs.


Take your ER PPC, add a large targeting computer, and there's your range fix for now. With a size 8 computer you can get them to 1100+.

#7 Koniving

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 05:14 AM

View PostreaverOfCheesecake, on 23 October 2014 - 04:52 AM, said:


Cone of fire would be next to nil (at least for the distances involved in MWO) for a machines that holds it's weapon almost completely steady, and has systems which counteract the affects of weapon shock/recoil.

In your favor though (and i assume that you are coming from a balancing perspective), you could argue that the weapon convergence system should be more complicated, i.e. weapons converge to the distance of your target (through pressing "R"), which gets around the tracking issue between long distance background, and only converges on distance registered by the hud, in cases where you have no target selected. I believe this would be a better nerf than introducing cone of fire (which i don't believe is quite suited for the theme of this game).

I think i do understand where you are coming from though.

We had that, they took it out.
Posted Image
Notice these lasers hit one specific point in the distance (where the convergence was set) but as it drags down they hit several points of the ground at once, and tighten to a specific point again as the convergence adjusts to the closer target while the lasers are dragged down. Delayed convergence, it's what happened when you rushed your aim to hit something after a rapid distance change.

This is also why we have the pinpoint skill, now currently useless. It was to speed up convergence.

Edited by Koniving, 23 October 2014 - 05:15 AM.


#8 Dahzer

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 06:49 AM

PPCs are not useless at range I use them and get successful hits all the time. The second shot not hitting is a problem yes. Ac's and gauss are also still very viable at long range. I agree the speed should be increased but even if the decrease I've near really had a problem with them are range minus when shooting at a light.

#9 Nightmare1

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 07:00 AM

View PostBad Andy, on 22 October 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

Because sniping is broken in this game without cone of fire


No cone of fire - it'll kill Lights and Mediums.

#10 Summon3r

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 07:34 AM

a slight increase in ppc/erppc speed is definitely in need of a serious look. doesnt need to be back to 1500 but 1100 give or take would be nice

#11 ollo

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 01:54 PM

View PostBad Andy, on 22 October 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

Because sniping WILL BE broken in this game WITH cone of fire


FTFY

#12 DeathlyEyes

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 02:03 AM

The recycle time change would be implemented on both PPCS sorry if that wasn't obvious. Cone of fire doesn't need to be implemented if armor values are buffed to increase TTK. This gives close range mechs a chance to close. As it is now close range mechs do seem to have plenty of time to close if they are moving as a well coordinated group. A group of pug snipers will always be able to stop a disorderly charge of PUGs because it's much easier to coordinate jump sniping where as trying to get people to push together in text is much harder.

#13 reaverOfCheesecake

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 04:22 AM

View PostKoniving, on 23 October 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

We had that, they took it out.
Posted Image
Notice these lasers hit one specific point in the distance (where the convergence was set) but as it drags down they hit several points of the ground at once, and tighten to a specific point again as the convergence adjusts to the closer target while the lasers are dragged down. Delayed convergence, it's what happened when you rushed your aim to hit something after a rapid distance change.

This is also why we have the pinpoint skill, now currently useless. It was to speed up convergence.


Nice post backed with evidence... me likes ;) .

I wasn't around when they had this feature... did it prove to be too much of a pain for lasers then?

Just curious.

#14 Lily from animove

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 04:29 AM

View PostreaverOfCheesecake, on 24 October 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:


Nice post backed with evidence... me likes ;) .

I wasn't around when they had this feature... did it prove to be too much of a pain for lasers then?

Just curious.



the issue is, when you target to an object via pressing R the convergence should had to try setting the convergence to the targets range not to where the crosshair aims to.

#15 reaverOfCheesecake

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 04:50 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 24 October 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:



the issue is, when you target to an object via pressing R the convergence should had to try setting the convergence to the targets range not to where the crosshair aims to.


OK... this is how it works now isn't it (convergence to cross hair i mean)... but the convergence is much faster.

I was suggesting that it always sets the convergence to the target (regardless of where your cross hair is aiming). This would mess up the convergence on fast targets yes... but this is a decent buff for lights... unlike the bad hit registration thing they have at atm.

It should only converge to crosshair when no target is selected... i.e. long range targets or ecm targets.

Please correct me if i have misunderstood.

Edited by reaverOfCheesecake, 24 October 2014 - 04:53 AM.


#16 Ironwithin

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 05:33 AM

View PostreaverOfCheesecake, on 24 October 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

...

It should only converge to crosshair when no target is selected... i.e. long range targets or ecm targets.

Please correct me if i have misunderstood.


But that would lead to people intentionally not targeting anything so they can benefit from this. Hard enough now to get people to target enemies so others can see what's going on/fire LRMs to help.

Personally I like PPCs right now. Once you get used to their speed you have no problem hitting moving targets, even at long range. Seems to me the change was a pretty good one, actually. Can't speek for league-matches/competitive play but in public solo- and group-queue you do see PPCs being used quite often, so they can't be useless. They just stopped being the insta-choice for jimmy-noskill and his grandma on every 'mech that could carry them.

#17 Koniving

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 06:30 AM

View PostreaverOfCheesecake, on 24 October 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:


Nice post backed with evidence... me likes ;) .

I wasn't around when they had this feature... did it prove to be too much of a pain for lasers then?

Just curious.

People absolutely hated it for single shot ballistics (but it would have been awesome for burst fire ballistics, as while the first shots might miss due to realigning, the sequential ones would not). It wasn't much trouble for lasers, and wouldn't be with host state rewind. The issue though is back then, there was a point when they raised the speed caps that mechs "weren't where you saw them," and instead you'd have to shoot the air in front of them to hit them. This was a problem because your convergence would target the ground behind the air, but you had to shoot the air to hit fast mechs. So it'd never be focused, resulting in the invincible Ravens.

For a long time people considered PPCs worthless despite speeds of 1,200 meters/sec because they had difficulty getting them to converge (people wouldn't wait for it, they'd want to fire right away).

It wouldn't be an issue now. But they'd have to redo a lot of stuff with HSR to make it work. They will need to do this regardless of whether it's a cone of fire or delayed convergence.

The other problem they had was that the convergence was controlled server side. This meant the farther away you are from the server (the higher your ping), the longer it took to recalibrate your aim. You can imagine this was a huge problem which was ultimately the reason they did away with it. (For one second convergence, it'd take up to 3 to 4 seconds to align and converge if you were in Australia).

#18 Shlkt

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 06:36 AM

Recent buffs to jump thrust will almost certainly bring some popularity back to PPCs. They may not be suited for long range combat, but they'll do just fine at medium range. And with the Awesome gaining a bunch of PPC bonuses in the next patch, I think we'll be seeing plenty of PPCs in the future without additional buffs.

#19 MostLikely2Suck

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 08:09 AM

View PostXphR, on 22 October 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

Someone is going to come in and tell you that:

Lasers have to be kept on target for duration

&

PPCs have only to make contact




Side question, why should an ERPPC be slower than a PPC?
^My brain was offline for number recognition....


That is the first fix they should try/implement for at least a week and gather data on. Bring the regular IS PPC up from 850 m/s to 950 m/s. ERPPC still has the range advantage and in the damage curve, does full damage out to 810m instead of 540m with Regular IS PPC (plus long range of 1620m [ERPPC] compared to 1080m [PPC]).

View PostKoniving, on 23 October 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:


Take your ER PPC, add a large targeting computer, and there's your range fix for now. With a size 8 computer you can get them to 1100+.


That's nice if you're piloting clan mechs. The IS command module doesn't effect projectile speeds, so IS has no options for speeding up projectiles including PPC and ERPPC.


BTW, I am still a fan of the old PPC 1500 m/s. The whole reason to change the speed was to further desync the Gauss/PPC combination convergence. Well, we still have dire wolves that the hit same component from 1000m with 2 gauss and 2 ERPPC rounds for 40-45 pinpoint damage (dmg scale); we still have convergence speed on PPCs/AC10, ERPPC and AC 5s... what has this solved?

NEVERMIND that the original "charge up" time for the gauss rifle was suppose to address the PPC/Gauss convergence. This might have worked for 1 week until players got use to gauss rifle mechanic. Then convergence happened again (no surprise).

Now for the "blow your mind" component to this rant: Convergence and being able to converge fire on a specific component is a skill and the capability to do so is directly proportional to pilot skill. Some people don't currently have the skill to maintain a 6 medium laser hold on a specific component they wish to target; others do. The same thing applies with PPC/gauss/AC convergence, some have the skill and others don't. It takes practice and skill to perform. It's comparable to practicing "headshots" in other FPS titles (cause head shots in MWO are unpractical or extremely difficult unless someone is shutdown). The better you're able to head shot someone, the faster you can take them down/out (normally).

If PGI honestly wants to slow down mech destruction and limit convergence; the answer is to set a global max alpha. If the global max alpha was set somewhere at 40 and then any value above that sent your weapons into a global cooldown (all weapons) of 6 seconds or so, you'd force people at a minimum to rotate to 2 volleys of fire. Right now, I have a Banshee 3S build that fires all weapons without ghost heat and can perform a 70 point alpha twice before shutting down. That is enough to kill almost any mech in 1-2 shots.

Food for thought: convergence is a skill. Practice makes perfect.

#20 Koniving

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 08:27 AM

You're correct. However the person complaining has a Clan tag and is a Clan player. I also agree that it blows for the IS.

Read here and especially my sequential posts there. It gives a few possibilities on mechanics on how to make each version of the PPC viable, including how to give the IS ER PPCs an edge, even if Clan ER PPCs + targeting computers do wind up superior to a point.

As for the other subject:
Convergence isn't a skill in this game, it is not something manually set. You don't set your range for 225 and fire.

You're confusing "Aim" for "Convergence." These are two different things. Now if you had to individually angle all 6 lasers yourself, that's a skill. But you don't, and it's done instantly.

Pointing and clicking on something moving on the screen is indeed a skill. A very cheap one, I confess, but a skill none the less. However that is aiming. That is not convergence, and what you're describing is not convergence but aiming.

Convergence, delayed or instant, is not a skill unless you have a manual input in how it is done.





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