98 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

Deathlike, on 23 October 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Maybe it's just me, but the IS "c-bill" bonus variants tend to be vastly inferior to the Clans. The closest ones that are actually good... like the Founders Atlas-D and Founders Jenner-D. Everything else is more or less meh (hopefully the quirks alleviate some of that).

King Crab would like to have a talk with you.

[Onmyoudo]

kapusta11, on 23 October 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

King Crab would like to have a talk with you.

We really don't know that until it actually comes out.

[El Bandito]

Scratx, on 23 October 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

Actually, the main reason is that IS mechs are cheaper in general to buy via c-bills than clan mechs. That's the official justification, and it does make some sense. (it's true, just look at the in-game store)

Of course, the cost of ownership of an IS mech actually ends up being much higher in relative terms than a clan mech, because in a clan mech you just swap weapons around, but in an IS mech you're endo-steeling, XL'ing, double heat sinking, etc...

On the other hand, you can swap engines with IS mechs while selling excess ones, but you are stuck with the engine in Clan mechs. Can't even sell em, unless you sell the whole mech. Not to mention Clan weapons are more expensive. Add to the fact that omnipods inflate Clan hardpoints a lot, you will be spending millions on weapons alone.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 October 2014 - 12:14 AM.

[Sirius Drake]

The argument that clan Tech is superior was a valid one.
But that times are long gone.
The argument that they come fully upgraded sounds nice but if you think about it you can find enough downsides of these fixed "upgrades".
So, yes, in my opinion Clan mechs are overprised now.

[Deathlike]

kapusta11, on 23 October 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

King Crab would like to have a talk with you.

My argument is not about mechs themselves. I'm talking about which mechs get the "bonus".

For instance, the Saber pack (Phoenix reinforcements)... the Griffin-1N is the Phoenix variant IIRC. Imagine if that reward went to the very popular 3M. Compare that if the bonus went to the 1S. Your opinion of the Phoenix variant would dramatically change would it not?

Look at the Wolverine-6R. It is the Phoenix Pack variant IIRC. One could argue it could be a below Tier-5 mech (it's very limited as is). Imagine if you could change where the bonus went... to the 6K (which is a risky idea)... or to the 7K (which is fairly usable). It's the kind of change where if you had a preference for a particular variant, you would probably "value" said bonus much more.

When you look at the Clan omnipod system, you could rebuild the mech for the most part in the preferred way you'd like to play the mech. That's the value in the Clan Pack over the IS Pack.

Besides, the King Crab is technically irrelevant in the discussion... it's not part of any "pack" outside of getting it as a bonus for upgrading all the way in any pack. We don't really know if its the best or worst variant compared to the rest of the King Crab variants... which will all have some individual hardpoint inflation/changes of their own.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 October 2014 - 01:02 AM.

[kapusta11]

Deathlike, on 24 October 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

My argument is not about mechs themselves. I'm talking about which mechs get the "bonus".

For instance, the Saber pack (Phoenix reinforcements)... the Griffin-1N is the Phoenix variant IIRC. Imagine if that reward went to the very popular 3M. Compare that if the bonus went to the 1S. Your opinion of the Phoenix variant would dramatically change would it not?

Look at the Wolverine-6R. It is the Phoenix Pack variant IIRC. One could argue it could be a below Tier-5 mech (it's very limited as is). Imagine if you could change where the bonus went... to the 6K (which is a risky idea)... or to the 7K (which is fairly usable). It's the kind of change where if you had a preference for a particular variant, you would probably "value" said bonus much more.

When you look at the Clan omnipod system, you could rebuild the mech for the most part in the preferred way you'd like to play the mech. That's the value in the Clan Pack over the IS Pack.

Besides, the King Crab is technically irrelevant in the discussion... it's not part of any "pack" outside of getting it as a bonus for upgrading all the way in any pack. We don't really know if its the best or worst variant compared to the rest of the King Crab variants... which will all have some individual hardpoint inflation/changes of their own.

Well ballistic Zeus is officially "special" variant now.

Edited by kapusta11, 24 October 2014 - 01:04 AM.

[KuroNyra]

Anarcho, on 23 October 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Well, this isnt a rant or cry, just want to know why the IS pack is 80 bucks when the clan wave 2 with 4 mechs, colours and premium time cost more...

Why??

Because the price is set with the technology used, in overall. The Clan mech have a greater cost in C-bill and MC. Same for the price package.

They made sometime ago an explaination about it.
And it's a bit locical when you think about it.

[Deathlike]

kapusta11, on 24 October 2014 - 01:02 AM, said:

Well ballistic Zeus is officially "special" variant now.

Well, I guess user intervention caused that to happen. Congrats? It's an improvement (I'm not sure if they would have changed their minds in the past about these things).

TBH, PGI's normal system was to usually pick the "primary" variant that sarna lists and that would've been the 6S in the first place. Apparently, some other formula was used... so I'm not planning to guess the logic.

[Sirius Drake]

KuroNyra, on 24 October 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

Because the price is set with the technology used, in overall. The Clan mech have a greater cost in C-bill and MC. Same for the price package.

They made sometime ago an explaination about it.
And it's a bit locical when you think about it.

It seemed (more or less) logical with the initial Clan wave 1.
By now that logic is invalid.

[Cherry Darling]

Yukichi Fukuzawa, on 23 October 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

The clan mechs are FULLY UPGRADED and have weapons and XLS and full gear that is much more pricey. The IS mechs are generally lowly upgraded or fully standard stock. Not the same thing at all.

Thank you.

/end thread

[Aresye]

Yukichi Fukuzawa, on 23 October 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

The clan mechs are FULLY UPGRADED and have weapons and XLS and full gear that is much more pricey. The IS mechs are generally lowly upgraded or fully standard stock. Not the same thing at all.

Cool story brah. Now sell them without those so I can upgrade them with my 300,000+ CBills instead of wasting real life money.

[Sirius Drake]

Aresye, on 24 October 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

Cool story brah. Now sell them without those so I can upgrade them with my 300,000+ CBills instead of wasting real life money.

Plus: i still think some of them are more like "upgrades" and not upgrades.

[Mad Strike]

People wanted an IS package for the King Crab , they have it.

DEAL WITH IT.

[Sirius Drake]

strikebrch, on 24 October 2014 - 02:07 AM, said:

People wanted an IS package for the King Crab , they have it.

DEAL WITH IT.

Nope.

[Alistair Winter]

The Panther comes with a Standard 140 engine, for God's sake. These mechs are going to be dirt cheap when they're available for C-bills. Can't compare them to a 17 million C-bill Dire Wolf.

Bishop Steiner, on 23 October 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

because most of the mechs are pretty lackluster and probably won't be tier 1-2

Most people (including myself) said that about the Shadowhawk.
"Look how big it is! Dead on arrival, mate."

[Thorn Hallis]

wolf74, on 23 October 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

Or it just could be with the LAST big push from the outside that got the clan mech made they learned a lot on how to make mech cheaper and are just passing the new lower cost on to us.

Doubt that. 'Mech prices haven't changed since day 1.

[Pale Jackal]

Sirius Drake, on 24 October 2014 - 12:12 AM, said:

The argument that clan Tech is superior was a valid one.
But that times are long gone.
The argument that they come fully upgraded sounds nice but if you think about it you can find enough downsides of these fixed "upgrades".
So, yes, in my opinion Clan mechs are overprised now.

Each Stormcrow costs about 10 mill C-bills. Each Shadowhawk costs about 4.5 million.

Oh, and you have to pay 2 million for Endo and DHS to make it viable.

It's raw C-bills, pure and simple. If PGI wants to make the Wave 2 pack cost $20 per tier, I will happily switch from the Resistance pack to the Clan Wave 2 pack. However, their logic is consistent, and the Phoenix pack cost $80, prior to the Clan pack release.

[Ancient Demise]

Then what about the mc differences between individual mechs? There is no way that is factored into any pack, IS or Clan. PGI has always said that clan tech will be different but balanced. So why are they charging more for a comparable asset? Because they can.

And if it is really about the cbill cost (which is arbitrary compared to real currency because you can't even buy them yet for cbills) then sell us the clan mech chassis without the weapons or upgrades for the same IS price lol.

It is not right that one person has to pay 150% REAL money for something that is balanced to be at an "equal" level.

Edited by Ancient Demise, 24 October 2014 - 03:00 AM.

[Sirius Drake]

Pale Jackal, on 24 October 2014 - 02:51 AM, said:

Each Stormcrow costs about 10 mill C-bills. Each Shadowhawk costs about 4.5 million.

Oh, and you have to pay 2 million for Endo and DHS to make it viable.

It's raw C-bills, pure and simple. If PGI wants to make the Wave 2 pack cost $20 per tier, I will happily switch from the Resistance pack to the Clan Wave 2 pack. However, their logic is consistent, and the Phoenix pack cost $80, prior to the Clan pack release.

The logic is flawed at a base level.
It goes like this: Clan Tech is more expensive thus it costs more cbill. So you need more MC. And in the end more cash.
So far, so good.
Why is clan tech more expensive? Because it is superior to IS tech.
And thats the problem. Clan tech got nerfed to a Level where it is "equal but different".
I don't mind that. I can understand that from a competative point of view.
BUT! The Clan Tech is STILL more expensive.
So, how can something that is equal be more expensive?

Edit:
Damn you Ancient, you were faster ^^

Edited by Sirius Drake, 24 October 2014 - 03:05 AM.

[kapusta11]

Sirius Drake, on 24 October 2014 - 03:02 AM, said:

Why is clan tech more expensive?

Because of 5 mil XL engine on every mech https://docs.google....1#gid=870223518 but balance wise, yeah it is superior, not for long I hope.

Edited by kapusta11, 24 October 2014 - 03:09 AM.