98 replies to this topic

[Sirius Drake]

kapusta11, on 24 October 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

Because of 5 mil XL engine on every mech https://docs.google....1#gid=870223518 but balance wise, yeah it is superior, not for long I hope.

And thats the point were you are just plain wrong.

Edit:
And an XL engine is worth 40 bucks. LAWL.

Edited by Sirius Drake, 24 October 2014 - 03:14 AM.

[kapusta11]

Sirius Drake, on 24 October 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

And thats the point were you are just plain wrong.

Care to elaborate?

[Sirius Drake]

kapusta11, on 24 October 2014 - 03:14 AM, said:

Care to elaborate?

I did. You just ignored that part of my post for trollish reasons i guess?

[Mathies Jaeger]

I feel like Clan prices could drop some to take into account the unswappability of that pricey XL engine. Yes, Clan mechs come fully upgraded. However, it is often vastly cheaper (for me) to play IS because I don't have to buy the same engine for all three required variants. I can (and do) swap these engines where I need them. One doesn't have this option for Clans and must shell out that engine cost every time they purchase mech, even if they are just going to turn around and sell it after Basics. It would be great if Clans got a minor drop (10-20%) in prices to reflect that fact.

[kapusta11]

Sirius Drake, on 24 October 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

I did. You just ignored that part of my post for trollish reasons i guess?

That part where you said that Clan tech is equal because of "reasons", and that Clan tech is more expensive because of "no reasons". Ok, I guess I'm done here.

Edited by kapusta11, 24 October 2014 - 03:21 AM.

[Sirius Drake]

Yeah because saying "Clan Tech is still superior" is such a better argument, right?
Good riddance.

[Pale Jackal]

Mathies Jaeger, on 24 October 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

I feel like Clan prices could drop some to take into account the unswappability of that pricey XL engine. Yes, Clan mechs come fully upgraded. However, it is often vastly cheaper (for me) to play IS because I don't have to buy the same engine for all three required variants. I can (and do) swap these engines where I need them. One doesn't have this option for Clans and must shell out that engine cost every time they purchase mech, even if they are just going to turn around and sell it after Basics. It would be great if Clans got a minor drop (10-20%) in prices to reflect that fact.

If it is more expensive to play Clan, then that justifies the increased Wave 2 cost.

Free XL engines and endo and DHS and the inherent high cost of Clan mechs are why the Clan packs cost more. You are paying for Cbills and cosmetics in any package.

[Mathies Jaeger]

Pale Jackal, on 24 October 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

If it is more expensive to play Clan, then that justifies the increased Wave 2 cost.

Free XL engines and endo and DHS and the inherent high cost of Clan mechs are why the Clan packs cost more. You are paying for Cbills and cosmetics in any package.

Except they're not really 'free' XLs because I'm footing the cost for them, but don't get the same benefits as purchasing an IS engine (such as being able to swap or sell). Basically, its more part of the base chassis cost than a piece of equipment. DHS I'll concede, but Endo only applies to specific mechs (oh my poor Nova).

Yes, you are right, it is more costly to play Clan at the moment. If IS = Clan, though, it shouldn't be more costly to level one side versus the other (after accounting for any upgrades that IS mechs need). I'm not saying an upgraded Clan mech should cost the same as an unupgraded IS mech, but I do think a minor reduction in Clan prices would good. (Then again, I feel Cbill earnings are too low across the board and MC costs are about double what they should be for anything, so YMMV)

[Pale Jackal]

To be clear, I am arguing that mech pack pricing makes sense. I have no argument about reducing CBill purchase costs. If PGI ever reduces Clan mech CBill prices then they should reduce mech pack real money prices.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 24 October 2014 - 04:09 AM.

[Ancient Demise]

MC prices are proportional to cbill prices. Okay, fine so far.
Pre-order prices are NOT proportional to MC, so the cbill justification doesn't quite work.

A mech is a mech and they have said that from the beginning. A light mech is not "worse" overall compared to an assault mech and they have gone through great pains to build the game around that concept. Clans are suppose to be or will be balanced to be comparable to IS either through tech balancing or 10v12 or whatever. Therefore, a pre-order price should remain constant across all mechs. Light or heavy, clan or IS.

They [clan mechs, components] don't cost pgi any more to make in game so as far as I can tell the price is being driven up arbitrarily.


Its not like we can do anything else with those clan xl engines anyways...

[Creovex]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 October 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

because most of the mechs are pretty lackluster and probably won't be tier 1-2

"uh Nail... this is Hammer... Coming in for contact on your head. Rgr"

Also... last I checked:
Clan Mechs = Omnis
IS Mechs = Standard

BIG DIFFERENCE!

Edited by Creovex, 24 October 2014 - 06:55 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 24 October 2014 - 02:12 AM, said:

The Panther comes with a Standard 140 engine, for God's sake. These mechs are going to be dirt cheap when they're available for C-bills. Can't compare them to a 17 million C-bill Dire Wolf.


Most people (including myself) said that about the Shadowhawk.
"Look how big it is! Dead on arrival, mate."

And aside from the Shawk, look how well that Pack performs.

[EgoSlayer]

Sirius Drake, on 24 October 2014 - 03:02 AM, said:

The logic is flawed at a base level.
It goes like this: Clan Tech is more expensive thus it costs more cbill. So you need more MC. And in the end more cash.
So far, so good.
Why is clan tech more expensive? Because it is superior to IS tech.
And thats the problem. Clan tech got nerfed to a Level where it is "equal but different".
I don't mind that. I can understand that from a competative point of view.
BUT! The Clan Tech is STILL more expensive.
So, how can something that is equal be more expensive?

Edit:
Damn you Ancient, you were faster ^^

The reason is the C-Bill costs, that's it. Yes in TT it was because the tech was plainly superior, and that isn't the case in MWO. But the Mechs still come with DHS and XL engines included in the price which still makes them more than most IS mechs.

As for why is it still more expensive for Clan tech - Ever heard of Monster Cables? Why do they cost 10-20 times what a monoprice cable does? Marketing, because they can. Equal yet more expensive.

Tell yourself that all the electrical contacts are gold plated in Clan mechs if that's what it takes for it to make sense. They cost more because they can cost more. Why is irrelevant at this point.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 24 October 2014 - 08:16 AM.

[Calamus]

TLDR Version:

• Clan mechs are not superior to Is mechs anymore. Evidence below
  
• PGI's statement that mech pack tiers are based on CBill/MC prices is not true.
  
• Clan players are being forced to contribute more real money to the game (If they choose to contribute)
  
• Currently a Clan player must pay the same amount for a Tier 2 package as an IS player pays for a tier 3 package. This means that for the same amount of money the IS player gets more titles, 3 more mechbays, 23 days extra premium time, 3 more mechs, including a Hero Variant, and more faction content.
  
• Another example: An Is player can purchase the FULL MECH PACK for $10 LESS than the Tier 3 Clan pack. So, for $10 LESS money the IS player gets: More badges, more titles, 30 EXTRA days premium time, 3 extra Mech bays, and 3 Extra mechs, including a Hero Variant. LESS MONEY, and MUCH MORE content
  
• PGI did not think their Mech Pack price model through properly, and they are alienating Clan players who cannot afford the larger tiers

There is no good reason for Clan mechs to be more expensive (in real money) than IS mechs. All of the arguments that they are based on Cbill prices, and upgraded equipment, etc. are red herrings.




Russ has told me on Twitter that the prices are based on the Cbill/MC price of the mechs. Then why are light mech tiers selling for the same price as Heavy mech tiers? (Clan = $30/tier vs. IS=$20tier regardless of the mech size, weight, loadout)




Clans USED to be superior to IS mechs. That is no longer. I will post a copy of a detailed examination proving this, below, for those with the patience to read it.




It just so happens that most IS mechs come stock with completely degraded upgrades of the 4 upgrade options (Armour, Structure, Heat Sinks, Guidance) and with Standard engines. PGI figures that this makes IS mechs worth less Cbills -> MC -> Cash Money. This allows just about everyone who buys an IS mech to purchase it for less real world money and outfit/upgrade it with game money. How often do you not immediately upgrade the Armour, Structure, Heat Sinks, and Engine of your IS mech, providing you have the Cbills to do so? Not very often.




Clan mechs on the other hand, although they are not superior to Is mechs anymore, come outiftted - and forced to keep - 3 our of the 4 upgrades, and an XL Engine. This, in reality, does not make the Clan mechs superior (anymore). Instead it simply takes away the Clan player's ability to customize their mech loadout to the same extent as an IS player. Clan players cannot purchase a less expensive (real money) version of a mech, and then outfit and upgrade it with in game money (cbills).




Yes, this is the way its done in Battletech lore. PGI has already broken Battletech lore by nerfing Clan weapons to the point that they are different, but equal to IS weapons - for the sake of game mechanics/balance. (Proof is posted below). Therefore, lore is not a sufficient excuse for charging one faction of players more real world money than another player faction.

When it's looked at objectively, and you consider my evidence below that Clans are now different but relatively equal to IS, there is no good reason that Clans players are being forced to pay more real money for their faction. PGI chooses to make it this way, without logical reason. They do not <u>have</u> to. Yes, I know that the game is F2P and I don't have to pay anything. But, if I want to support PGI's game, and I am a clan player, then I am forced to pay more for an equal tier of package.




And so, in a game that is about to force players to use either one faction or the other, 1 side is being forced to make a larger real money contribution to the game. When this is done in the real world it is called discrimination.




PGI's determination, and current stated reasoning, for charging more for Clan mechs is a fallacy.





Proof that Clan is not superior to Is anymore:

Quote

Here are few points. First, a timeline of Clan alterations after the Invasion pack was released.

July 2-14 (Only 2 weeks after Clan release)
Weapons tuning:

Clan LRM launchers heat scales set to 3.1 up from 2.8
Clan LB2 spread set to 0.45, down from 1.3
Clan LB5 spread to 0.85, down from 1.3
Clan LB2, AC2, UAC2 and IS AC2 cooldown set to 0.72 down from 0.8
Clan ER Small Laser damage reduced from 5.0 to 4.0
Clan ER Small Laser range increased from 180m/360m to 200m/400m
Clan Small Pulse Laser damage increased from 3.4 to 4.4
Clan Medium Pulse Laser damage increase from 7.0 to 7.4
Clan Medium Pulse Laser heat increased from 5.0 to 5.5
Clan Medium Pulse Laser duration reduced from 1.1 to 0.9
Clan SRM/2 and SRM/6 impulse value reduced from 0.192 to 0.11

Aug 26-14
Several 'Mechs were previously under-valued for the load-out provided, the following prices have shifted:
NVA-S is now 3750 MC
SMN-B is now 5630 MC
SMN-D is now 5560 MC

Sept 5-14
Weapon Balance

IS ER Large Laser heat down from 8.5 to 8.0
IS ER Large Laser duration increased from 1.0 to 1.5

Clan ER Large Laser damage down from 11.25 to 11.0
Clan ER Large Laser heat penalty down from 12.0 to 4.0
Clan ER Large Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 890m to 740m
Clan ER Large Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 1780m to 1480m
Clan ER Large Laser duration down from 2.0s to 1.6s

Clan ER Medium Laser base heat increased from 5.0 to 6.0
Clan ER Medium Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 450m to 400m
Clan ER Medium Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 900m to 800m
Clan ER Medium Laser duration down from 1.3s to 1.25s

Clan ER Small Laser base heat increased from 2.0 to 3.0
Clan ER Small Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 200m to 150m
Clan ER Small Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 400m to 300m

Clan Large Pulse Laser damage down from 11.8 to 11.6
Clan Large Pulse Laser heat penalty increased from 2.8 to 4.0
Clan Large Pulse Laser base heat increased from 8.0 to 9.0
Clan Large Pulse Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 600m to 525m
Clan Large Pulse Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 1200m to 1050m
Clan Large Pulse Laser duration down from 1.3s to 1.2s

Clan Medium Pulse Laser base heat increased from 5.5 to 6.0
Clan Medium Pulse Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 400m to 330m
Clan Medium Pulse Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 800m to 660m
Clan Medium Pulse Laser duration down from 0.9s to 0.85s

Clan Small Pulse Laser base heat increased from 2.4 to 3.4
Clan Small Pulse Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 180m to 150m
Clan Small Pulse Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 360m to 300m

Clan LRM-5 cooldown increased from 3.25s to 3.5s
Clan LRM-10 cooldown increased from 3.75s to 4.0s
Clan LRM-15 cooldown increased from 4.25s to 4.5s
Clan LRM-20 cooldown increased from 4.75s to 5.0s
Clan Streak SRM-4 cooldown decreased from 5.25s to 5.0s
Clan Streak SRM-6 cooldown decreased from 7.0s to 6.0s

Oct 7-14
Gameplay
New heat penalties when a 'Mech equipped with a Clan XL engine loses a side torso.
The 'Mech will lose 20% of the heat sinks in the engine.
This percentage is calculated as the total of the heat sinks integral to the engine as well as any equipped in its heat sink slots.
The lost heat sinks are removed from those integral to the engine.


Overall Clan Observations:
Clan Weapon Values:
[O = Original Values on Release / C = Current Values to Date]

• CLRM (All) Heat Scale: O= 2.8 C=3.1
  
• CERSML Damage: O=5 C=4
  
• CERSML Range O=180/360m C=150/300m
  
• CERSML Heat O=2 C=3
  
• CERSMPL Heat O=2.4 C= 3.4
  
• CERSMPL Range: O=180/360m C=150m/300m
  
• CERMPL Heat: O=5 C=6
  
• CERMPL Range: O= 400/800m C=330/660m
  
• CERLL Duration O=1.25 C=1.6
  
• CERLL Damage O=11.25 C=11
  
• CERLL Range O=890m/1780m C=740m/1480m
  
• CERLPL Damage O=11.8 C=11.6
  
• CERLPL Heat Penalty O=2.8 C=4
  
• CERLPL Heat O=8 C=9
  
• CERLPL Range O=600/1200m C=525/1050m
  
• CERML Heat O=5 C=6
  
• CERML Range: O=450/900m C=400/800m
  
• CLRM5 Cooldown O=3.25 C=3.5
  
• CLRM10 Cooldown O=3.75 C=4
  
• CLRM15 Cooldown O=4.25 C=4.5
  
• CLRM20 Cooldown O=4.75 C=5

Observations: As you can see, almost every clan weapon has been nerfed, some of them very significantly since Clan's were released. Almost every weapon advantage originally given to Clans have been tken away completely, or significantly reduced to include proportionate negative values to correlate to the positive values over Is weapons.

There is a clear pattern to the Clan nerfs. Their benefits have been either reduced slightly, and/or offset with slight negative increases, or their benefits have just been significantly reduced.

Nerfed Weapons: CLRM5, 10, 15,20, CERSML, CSERSMPL, CERML, CERMPL, CERLL, CERLPL

Buffed Weapons: CSTRK 4, 6 (Small Cooldown buffs)


Additional Nerfs Since launch:

• Nova, Summoner have both had MC price increased (which increases it's Cash value as well)
  
• Clan Side Torso's have had Heat Sink reductions added on destruction

Clan Vs IS Comparisons

• SML Damage: C=4 IS=3
  
• SML Range C=150/300m IS=~100m/~200m
  
• SML Heat C=3 IS=2
  
• SPL Heat C=3.4 IS= 2.4
  
• SPL Range: C=150m/300m IS=~100m/~200m
  
• MPL Heat: C=6 IS= 4.6
  
• MPL Range: C=330/660m IS=~300m/~400m
  
• ERLL Tonnage: C=4 IS=5
  
• ERLL Duration C=1.6 IS=1.25
  
• ERLL Damage C=11 IS=9
  
• ERLL Range C=740m/1480m IS=~700m/~1400m
  
• LPL Tonnage: C=6 IS=7
  
• LPL Damage C=11.6 IS=10.6
  
• LPL Heat Penalty C=4
  
• LPL Heat C=9 IS=8
  
• LPL Range C=525/1050m IS=~350m/~700m
  
• LPL Duration C=1.2 IS=.6
  
• ML Heat C=6 IS=4
  
• ML Range: C=400/800m IS=250m/500m
  
• LRM5 Cooldown C=3.5 IS= 3.25
  
• LRM10 Cooldown C=4 IS=3.75
  
• LRM15 Cooldown C=4.5 IS=4.25
  
• LRM20 Cooldown C=5 IS=4.75

Observations: (Obviously this is an incomplete list, and represents only the weapons that have been tuned since Clan Launch). Clans consistently have significantly more range, slightly more damage, slightly less tonnage. IS Consistently has significantly less heat, significantly less duration/cooldown.

Significant Clan Pro's

• Laser weapons have slightly longer range, and slightly more damage
  
• Clans have better short range missile, and Ballistic weapon variety (LB, and UAC Options)
  
• Clan weapons consistently are slightly less tonnage
  
• Clans can lose a torso with an XL Engine
  

Significant IS Pro's

• Ballistic Weapons have pinpoint damage from firing single projectiles
  
• Mech Chassis are more customizable for armour type, structure, guidance, and heat sink type
  
• Engine choice is swappable, and customizable to fit a variety of play styles, including Standard Engine sizes that allow better tanking durability and 'Zombie' builds, and Engines allowing greater speed and maneuverability choices
  
• LRM's fire in single volley's reducing effectiveness of AMS

Clan and IS Offsets

• Lasers: Clan has longer range/damage on Lasers, but has significantly more heat, and greater beam durations to deal damage. EG: LPL Duration=.6 vs. CLPL Duration=1.2. This means that a Clan LPL must be held on target for literally twice as long in order to do 1 single point of damage more. Conclusion: Even. In some weapons the Clans are significantly better (CERML Vs. ML). In other laser weapons IS has a clear advantage (LPL Vs. CLPL), yet others are relatively even in terms of tradeoffs (CERLL Vs. LL)
  
• Ballistics: Clans can carry a greater variety of ballistics, with slightly less tonnage, but have significantly less pinpoint damage compared to IS AC's. EG: CAC20 deals 20 damage over 4 individual projectiles = 5 pinpoint damage per projectile Vs. AC20 deals 20 damage over a single projectile = 20 pinpoint damage. Conclusion: Even. Clans can boat more ballistics and put more suppression fire downrange, but IS is able to pinpoint damage to destroy mechs or components easier. EG: Clans have great 80+ point alpha suppression DireWolves. IS gets 40 pinpoint Dual AC20 Jagers, and 30 pinpoint AC20/PPC Shadowhawks, Quad AC2 Banshees and Dual AC10 Battlemasters.
  
• Engines: Clans get no variety, and all mechs have a set speed range. They cannot reduce speed to increase firepower loadout, and cannot increase speed to improve hit and run ability. All Clan XL engines are more durable in return, but all clan mechs must run XL engines. IS mechs can choose between standard and XL engines, providing better role variability from slower chassis with greater firepower, to faster chassis with greater hit and run ability. Also, Fastest Clan mech to date runs at a top speed of 106kph. Fastest IS mech runs at 170kph, a full 64kph difference, which is very significant. As a result, IS engines are less durable if you choose an XL type. Conclusion: Even. An argument can be made that IS has an advantage here with certain roles, such as scouting, Zombie builds, etc.
  
• LRMs: Clan LRMs weigh less than IS. They deal the same damage, and the same heat. IS LRM's require less cooldown time. Also, Clan LRMs fire in streak patterns making them easier to counter with AMS. IS LRMs fire in one large volley, making them significantly more difficult to counter with AMS. Finally, Clan LRMs can deal reduced damage within 180m; IS LRMs deal 0 damage within 180m. Conclusion: Even. In some situations IS LRMs are vastly superior. EG: They overcome AMS better, and you can fire them more often. In other situations Clan LRMs are superior. With reduced weight you can Boat LRMs and have more backup weapons, and if you're rushed you can still deal damage with them within 180m. End result: IS LRMs are better for LRM specialization, Clan LRMs are better for versatile builds. Even, but different.
  
• Other weapons: Clan Gauss is lighter, but functions the same as IS Gauss. Clans only have CERPPC, IS can take a more heat efficient PPC that has a minimum range. Clan machineguns weigh less, and perform the same as IS.
  
• Upgrades: Clans cannot alter their armour, structure, or heat sink type. This ability allows IS mechs greater versatility for team role build variety.
  
• Overall: Clan mechs are more capable of loading greater Alpha strike loadouts due to weapons consistently weighing less than IS weapons. This ability is completely offset by heat generation, and component space (due to XL engines, fixed Heat Sinks, JJ's, etc.) EG: A Nova CAN outfit 12 CERMLs providing a total alpha damage of 84. They, however, cannot USE them effectively without overheating and blowing themselves up. This reduces their effective per cycle damage to somewhere between 28 and 42 non-pinpoint damage. An IS Shadowhawk can only outfit an AC20 and a PPC, but they can fire them repeatedly with pinpoint damage, providing an Alpha strike damage of 30, and a consistent Pinpoint damage of 30.
  • To compare more useful builds, a 6CERML 4CMG Nova vs. a AC20/PPC Shadowhawk. The Shadowhawk is unchanged at 30 sustainable, pinpoint damage. The Nova is listed at 58 Alpha damage, with none of it being pinpoint, and the firepower is not sustainable. Even 6CERML must be cycled in order to be fired consistently. A point worth noting with these two compared mechs is that the Shadowhawk is more durable with a Standard engine, and all of its weaponry on one side of the mech, allowing it to use an entire arm and torso for a shield. Conclusion? They are different, but both are extremely effective, and neither has a clear advantage over the other. In a duel the winner would likely come down the pilots ability.

Conclusions:
Clan mechs are superior in some ways. IS mechs are superior in others. What matters is that PGI is about to force restrict the use of these mechs with Community Warfare. Clan players will have no use for IS mechs, and vice versa.

Why this is significant
To buy Clan mechs costs exactly (so far) $10 more per mech. So, if a player would like to support the game, and purchase a mech, for whatever reason, they are forced to make a greater contribution in real dollars, compared to players who have chosen the other faction.

PGI states that this is due to the fact that Clan mechs cost more MC, and the MC price is based on the CBill price of the stock mech. Clan mechs can only come with 3 out of 4 possible upgrades hard wired into the chassis, which significantly increases the CBill cost of the mech. IS mechs, although they COULD come equipped with the same upgrades, they most often do not, and therefore cost less Cbills -> MC -> Real Money. In addition, Clan mechs come stock loaded with weapon loadouts that are significantly more expensive than IS mechs; also clan weapons cost more Cbills. This exacerbates the disparity. Originally the extra cost of clan weapons was justified, as they [u]were[/i] superior, consistently, to IS weapons. As I have shown, that is no longer the case, but the Cbill costs have remained the same, and therefore so do the real money costs.

Edited by Calamus, 24 October 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[Cimarb]

Disclaimer: I am one of the people that has zero problem paying more for Clan mechs, simply because I love the look and feel of them that much more. I will not be buying the Resistance pack, regardless of it being a "better" deal, and did buy the Wave 2, regardless of it being a "worse" deal, because I will likely never use another Inner Sphere mech again.

Having stated that, the justification that the Clan mechs are "better" is completely subjective (which is good, because that means they are relatively balanced) and a moot point, since packages are NOT based upon the technology in the chassis.

To illustrate this, here are some examples...

Cbill cost: these are based upon the technology in the specific stock loadout of the chassis.
MC cost (standard): this is a straight conversion of the cbill cost, based upon the stock loadout. (~cbills/2500)
MC cost (hero/champ): this is a tonnage-based system, where the cost is 75 MC per ton, regardless of stock loadout.
Package cost: this is an arbitrary cost determined by supply/demand, as it has no basis on chassis/loadout.

LOCUST (20-ton IS light, low tech)
Tier 1 Project Phoenix Mech: $20
Cbill cost: 1.4m - 1.8m cbills
MC cost (standard): 560-715 mc
MC cost (hero/champ): 1500 mc

BATTLEMASTER (85-ton IS assault, low tech)
Tier 4 Project Phoenix Mech: $20
Cbill cost: 7.4m - 8.2m cbills, 3S outlier at 11.8m for high tech version
MC cost (standard): 2950-3275 mc, 3S outlier at 4705
MC cost (hero/champ): 6375 mc

KIT FOX (30-ton Clan light, high tech)
Tier 1 Wave 1 Mech: $30
Cbill cost: 5.8m - 6.0m cbills
MC cost (standard): 2340-2405 mc
MC cost (hero/champ): 2250 mc

DIRE WOLF (100-ton Clan assault, high tech)
Tier 4 Wave 1 Mech: $30
Cbill cost: 17.2m - 17.8m cbills
MC cost (standard): 6860-7140 mc
MC cost (hero/champ): 7500 mc

ATLAS (100-ton IS assault, low-high tech)
Imaginary IS package mech: $20
Cbill cost: 9.3m - 13.7m cbills
MC cost (standard): 3745-5480 mc
MC cost (hero/champ): 7500 mc

Make of it what you will, but the packages are NOT based upon the technology included with the packaged mech, nor weight class, and do not conform to any of the other formulas used to make mech costs scale.

Again, I do not have a problem with the cost difference, as I like Clan mechs that much more, but I would also not have any problem with the cost being equal, and the facts are that the only reason Clan Mechs cost more per tier is because PGI wants them to (i.e. Supply/demand).

[MoonUnitBeta]

Anarcho, on 23 October 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Well, this isnt a rant or cry, just want to know why the IS pack is 80 bucks when the clan wave 2 with 4 mechs, colours and premium time cost more...

Why??

Quote

Players will immediately notice the high value comparable to the Phoenix program where packages range from 20 to 80 dollars. This is primarily based as always on the C-bill to MC ratio which describes the difference between IS and Clan package pricing

Source

[Calamus]

MoonUnitBeta, on 24 October 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Source

Fallacy argument. See my post above.

[Calamus]

Cimarb, on 24 October 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

Disclaimer: I am one of the people that has zero problem paying more for Clan mechs, simply because I love the look and feel of them that much more. I will not be buying the Resistance pack, regardless of it being a "better" deal, and did buy the Wave 2, regardless of it being a "worse" deal, because I will likely never use another Inner Sphere mech again.

Having stated that, the justification that the Clan mechs are "better" is completely subjective (which is good, because that means they are relatively balanced) and a moot point, since packages are NOT based upon the technology in the chassis.

To illustrate this, here are some examples...

Cbill cost: these are based upon the technology in the specific stock loadout of the chassis.
MC cost (standard): this is a straight conversion of the cbill cost, based upon the stock loadout. (~cbills/2500)
MC cost (hero/champ): this is a tonnage-based system, where the cost is 75 MC per ton, regardless of stock loadout.
Package cost: this is an arbitrary cost determined by supply/demand, as it has no basis on chassis/loadout.

LOCUST (20-ton IS light, low tech)
Tier 1 Project Phoenix Mech: $20
Cbill cost: 1.4m - 1.8m cbills
MC cost (standard): 560-715 mc
MC cost (hero/champ): 1500 mc

BATTLEMASTER (85-ton IS assault, low tech)
Tier 4 Project Phoenix Mech: $20
Cbill cost: 7.4m - 8.2m cbills, 3S outlier at 11.8m for high tech version
MC cost (standard): 2950-3275 mc, 3S outlier at 4705
MC cost (hero/champ): 6375 mc

KIT FOX (30-ton Clan light, high tech)
Tier 1 Wave 1 Mech: $30
Cbill cost: 5.8m - 6.0m cbills
MC cost (standard): 2340-2405 mc
MC cost (hero/champ): 2250 mc

DIRE WOLF (100-ton Clan assault, high tech)
Tier 4 Wave 1 Mech: $30
Cbill cost: 17.2m - 17.8m cbills
MC cost (standard): 6860-7140 mc
MC cost (hero/champ): 7500 mc

ATLAS (100-ton IS assault, low-high tech)
Imaginary IS package mech: $20
Cbill cost: 9.3m - 13.7m cbills
MC cost (standard): 3745-5480 mc
MC cost (hero/champ): 7500 mc

Make of it what you will, but the packages are NOT based upon the technology included with the packaged mech, nor weight class, and do not conform to any of the other formulas used to make mech costs scale.

Again, I do not have a problem with the cost difference, as I like Clan mechs that much more, but I would also not have any problem with the cost being equal, and the facts are that the only reason Clan Mechs cost more per tier is because PGI wants them to (i.e. Supply/demand).

I know you and I have gone over this already, but this is more for the benefit of everyone else who isn't in our clan.

You've proven that you're willing to pay an inflated price because your decision, by your admission, is based on a feeling. It does not mean that the prices are not artificially inflated. And it does not mean that its fair. It also does not mean that the Clan players will keep paying it in the future, which would be detrimental to the game. I already know many, many people who have not bought all of Tier 1, OR Tier 2 for this very reason. I personally would have bought all of Wave 2 if it was priced like The Resistance Pack. I didn't because the price is inflated.

[Aresye]

Quote

And so, in a game that is about to force players to use either one faction or the other, 1 side is being forced to make a larger real money contribution to the game. When this is done in the real world it is called discrimination.

Nailed It

- If Clan mechs had the advantages they're supposed to: No Problem
- If Community Warfare let you pilot any mech regardless of faction: No Problem
- If Clan and IS are going to be balanced between each other for CW, then forcing one faction to pay more (regardless if it's real or in-game currency) for equally capable tools: Big Problem

[EgoSlayer]

Calamus, on 24 October 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Fallacy argument. See my post above.

It's not a fallacy argument when the source is the people setting the prices.

And your post above needs to total the base price of all the 3 variants at each tier in C-Bills total that up, then compare them to the all the clan C-Bill variant price totals. The Clans will be substantially more. If they should be more in C-Bills is subject to debate, but the fact is they are more in C-Bills.

EDIT: Nevermind, I did it from the C-Bill Clans that are available today vs the Phoenix Pack

Light:	Price			
LCT-1V	1388242				Kit-Fox-P	6008129
LCT-3M	1777326				Kit-Fox-D	5949429
LCT-3S	1589282				Kit-fox-S	5848129
				
Medium:				
SHD-2H	4356283				StormCrow-P	11113382
SHD-2D2	4473235				StormCrow-C	11139367
SHD-5M	8166799				StormCrow-D	11187742
				
Heavy:				
TDR-5S	5241175				Summoner-P	14071353
TDR-5SS	5188055				Summoner-B	14069481
TDR-9SE	5835993				Summoner-D	13899241
				
Assault:				
BLR-1G	7703709				DireWolf-P	17785963
BLR-1D	7363725				DireWolf-A	17149906
BLR-1S	7452829				DireWolf-B	17838493
 
 
		    IS			   	  Clan				
Totals		$60,536,653.00			$146,060,615.00
Average/Mech	$5,044,721.08			$12,171,717.92

So Clan prices in C-Bills are about 2.4x the price of IS mechs in these packs.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 24 October 2014 - 09:54 AM.