98 replies to this topic

[Calamus]

orcrist86, on 24 October 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

Quote edited because it's indignant and as unproductive as the author claims I am.

People who don't care about something don't take the time to write three paragraph long replies, complete with two post scripts and an image that needs to be uploaded and linked to.

You just wanted to claim that we were giving you cancer and hemorrhoids; I think because you think it sounds funny. You were saying something about being unproductive? Your post is its definition.

Edited by Calamus, 25 October 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[NovaFury]

Because you'll need to spend about 40 million cbills for XL engines and DHS to make them playable, unlike clan mechs.

Otherwise, they're fancy paperweights.

Edited by NovaFury, 25 October 2014 - 01:33 PM.

[Cimarb]

NovaFury, on 25 October 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Because you'll need to spend about 40 million cbills for XL engines and DHS to make them playable, unlike clan mechs.

Otherwise, they're fancy paperweights.

That is a hollow argument, though, as package pricing has ZERO to do with the mechs and equipment in them.

For instance, the cost of the Locust Project Phoenix Tier (1) is +$20. 60 tons at ~4.5 million cbills, or $0.33/ton
Compared to cost of the Battlemaster Project Phoenix Tier (4) is +$20. 255 tons at ~22.5 million cbills, or $0.07/ton

That is just within the Project Phoenix package, which has a very light Assault mech at only 85 tons.

[NovaFury]

Cimarb, on 25 October 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

That is a hollow argument, though, as package pricing has ZERO to do with the mechs and equipment in them.

No, really it's not.

Omnipods let me get the Cbill bonus on essentially all the variants of my mechs, including which ones are 'meta' for the chassis at any given time. Nerfs be damned, and we all knew they were going to nerf clan mechs, be honest now, they're still useful. You can't say that about the Project Phoenix mechs. You can try, but you'd be wrong.

Imagine if you could get the (P) variant shadowhawk as... Well, literally anything but the 2H, even though the 2H had viable builds when it was released. That's value. You can claim it isn't, but again, you'd be missing the point.

Also, the C-bill cost of the clan chassis is far in excess of their IS counterparts, your comparison is hollow, because it compares within the same package, where the whole 'value' is staging. That's why they force you to buy the lightest chassis first, after all.

You'd have to give the 30% cbill bonus to all IS variants in the package for me to agree with you.

Edited by NovaFury, 25 October 2014 - 04:26 PM.

[Cimarb]

NovaFury, on 25 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Omnipods let me get the Cbill bonus on essentially all the variants of my mechs, including which ones are 'meta' for the chassis at any given time. Nerfs be damned, and we all knew they were going to nerf clan mechs, be honest now, they're still useful. You can't say that about the Project Phoenix mechs. You can try, but you'd be wrong.

Imagine if you could get the (P) variant shadowhawk as... Well, literally anything but the 2H, even though the 2H had viable builds when it was released. That's value. You can claim it isn't, but again, you'd be missing the point.

I completely agree with you about the Omnipods on all three variants. If that was the argument you started with, I would not have said it was hollow. That was NOT your argument, though. Your argument was that...

NovaFury, on 25 October 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Because you'll need to spend about 40 million cbills for XL engines and DHS to make them playable, unlike clan mechs.

Otherwise, they're fancy paperweights.

Totally different argument. You are correct about the (I) bonus being usable regardless of what omnipods you equip, so that WOULD be a valid reason, but it is not the reason that PGI gave.

NovaFury, on 25 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Also, the C-bill cost of the clan chassis is far in excess of their IS counterparts, your comparison is hollow, because it compares within the same package, where the whole 'value' is staging.

The packages have nothing to do with the equipment in the chassis, as all tiers are the exact same cost individually. Therefore, this is a hollow and invalid argument.

NovaFury, on 25 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

That's why they force you to buy the lightest chassis first, after all.

Semi-valid, but ultimately incorrect, as the Wave 1 Tier 4 is an Assault, while the (higher) Wave 1 Tier 5 is a Light.

[Calamus]

NovaFury, on 25 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

No, really it's not.

Omnipods let me get the Cbill bonus on essentially all the variants of my mechs, including which ones are 'meta' for the chassis at any given time. Nerfs be damned, and we all knew they were going to nerf clan mechs, be honest now, they're still useful. You can't say that about the Project Phoenix mechs. You can try, but you'd be wrong.

Imagine if you could get the (P) variant shadowhawk as... Well, literally anything but the 2H, even though the 2H had viable builds when it was released. That's value. You can claim it isn't, but again, you'd be missing the point.

Also, the C-bill cost of the clan chassis is far in excess of their IS counterparts, your comparison is hollow, because it compares within the same package, where the whole 'value' is staging. That's why they force you to buy the lightest chassis first, after all.

You'd have to give the 30% cbill bonus to all IS variants in the package for me to agree with you.

That's a nice theory, but it's about as logical as if I told you that Inner Sphere mechs should be worth more because they can lose 2 arms, and two side torsos, and keep on fighting, with a standard engine.

PGI themselves have said, to me personally on Twitter (Russ), that they priced them on the Cbill/MC cost of the mechs, based on the 4 upgrades and XL engines. What makes you think that you're more informed than Russ Bullock about how they priced their mechs?

[NovaFury]

Cimarb, on 25 October 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

I completely agree with you about the Omnipods on all three variants. If that was the argument you started with, I would not have said it was hollow. That was NOT your argument, though. Your argument was that...

Fair enough. I'll concede that, it's a great value either way, though.

Calamus, on 25 October 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

PGI themselves have said, to me personally on Twitter (Russ), that they priced them on the Cbill/MC cost of the mechs, based on the 4 upgrades and XL engines. What makes you think that you're more informed than Russ Bullock about how they priced their mechs?

Where did I say I did?

You're rather presumptuous. I'm defending their pricing strategy, and you feel the need to invoke names?

Fact of the matter is, they have an intrinsic value the other packages don't have, due to how they're set up. Reasons aside, and we all know PGI has the best reasons for everything they do, the fact remains.

Edited by NovaFury, 25 October 2014 - 05:20 PM.

[Cimarb]

NovaFury, on 25 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

Fact of the matter is, they have an intrinsic value the other packages don't have, due to how they're set up.

The fact is that they are "equal but different". They do not have any unbalanced value to them that makes them worth 150% more than the IS counterpart.

PGI should charge the same price for the packages (say $25/tier), and then leave the Heroes at 75 MC/ton and the cbill/MC costs of standard variants be based upon the equipment in them, just like they currently are.

[Calamus]

NovaFury, on 25 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

Where did I say I did?

You're rather presumptuous. I'm defending their pricing strategy, and you feel the need to invoke names?

Fact of the matter is, they have an intrinsic value the other packages don't have, due to how they're set up. Reasons aside, and we all know PGI has the best reasons for everything they do, the fact remains.

LOL! Presumptuous. That's a good word. I think you're projecting.

Invoke names? Where?

What I'm getting from what your last sentence says is that PGI has a reason, albeit a different reason than you're using, and even though their reason might not make sense it's still their reason... I think that you're saying that their reasons don't matter. If that is what you're saying then I'll ask you the same thing I asked the last guy. If no one cares about reason, then why am I trying to reason with everyone?

If reason isn't important, then why am I not streaking through the park screaming that the German's are coming, right now?

[Pale Jackal]

Cimarb, on 25 October 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

That is a hollow argument, though, as package pricing has ZERO to do with the mechs and equipment in them.

For instance, the cost of the Locust Project Phoenix Tier (1) is +$20. 60 tons at ~4.5 million cbills, or $0.33/ton
Compared to cost of the Battlemaster Project Phoenix Tier (4) is +$20. 255 tons at ~22.5 million cbills, or $0.07/ton

That is just within the Project Phoenix package, which has a very light Assault mech at only 85 tons.

That's simply because the higher tiers reward "buying in bulk."

[Calamus]

Well, that's a matter of perspective Jackal. I call it penalizing those who can't afford to buy in bulk.

[NovaFury]

Calamus, on 25 October 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Invoke names? Where?

"PGI themselves have said, to me personally on Twitter (Russ)"

We're all impressed Russ speaks directly to you. You must be an important man.

Of course they have a reason. I agree with it, as I mentioned earlier that the IS mechs require significant price to upgrade. However, I believe a more important reason, to me in particular, is that the clan mechs are more broadly applicable. Cim thinks they should be the same regardless of their C-bill cost, I don't agree with him. That was the initial differences we had.

I honestly don't even understand where you came into it, to be fair.

Edited by NovaFury, 25 October 2014 - 06:17 PM.

[Calamus]

NovaFury, on 25 October 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

We're all impressed Russ speaks directly to you. You must be an important man.

Of course they have a reason. I agree with it, as I mentioned earlier that the IS mechs require significant price to upgrade. However, I believe a more important reason, to me in particular, is that the clan mechs are more broadly applicable. Cim thinks they should be the same regardless of their C-bill cost, I don't agree with him. That was the initial differences we had.

I honestly don't even understand where you came into it, to be fair.

Although I know that you're just trying to take a weak jab at me, I'll let you know that my point of mentioning Russ specifically was so that you knew that I wasn't getting my information second hand.

If you read back to my earlier posts (I know, reading is tedious when you can just come into the last page and pretend you've been here the whole time) you'll see where I mentioned that IS mechs can be upgraded with in game money, whereas clan mechs cannot. That means that Clan players are forced into paying more actual money if they choose to support the game by buying PGI's packages.

What exactly do you mean by broadly applicable? That's a pretty ambiguous statement to not have any context with it. If you mean that they fill more roles on the battlefield you couldn't be more wrong. IS mechs are much more versatile due to the fact that they are more customizable in upgrades, and engines.

[NovaFury]

Calamus, on 25 October 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Although I know that you're just trying to take a weak jab at me, I'll let you know that my point of mentioning Russ specifically was so that you knew that I wasn't getting my information second hand.

Second sentance, fair. I respect that. Though you ought to know people aren't going to wade through an entire thread to weigh in an an argument, the OP and recent track is usually the most relevant. I wouldn't be so guarded if you hadn't gone straight to Reducto Ad Absurdiam (Lol germans are coming!) and grandstanding with a pompous "What makes you think you know better" when my first post aligned with what Russ was saying in the first place!

But if that wasn't your intent, I apologise. I've not the patience or time to argue with you any further in either case.

Edited by NovaFury, 25 October 2014 - 06:59 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Sirius Drake, on 24 October 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

And thats the point were you are just plain wrong.

Edit:
And an XL engine is worth 40 bucks. LAWL.

In fairness, you do save 18 mil in DHS, the cost of upgrading to Endo, and the XL engines.

Panther and Koshi will likely fall in similar tiers.

[Calamus]

NovaFury, on 25 October 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

Second sentance, fair. I respect that. Though you ought to know people aren't going to wade through an entire thread to weigh in an an argument, the OP and recent track is usually the most relevant. I wouldn't be so guarded if you hadn't gone straight to Reducto Ad Absurdiam (Lol germans are coming!) and grandstanding with a pompous "What makes you think you know better" when my first post aligned with what Russ was saying in the first place!

But if that wasn't your intent, I apologise. I've not the patience or time to argue with you any further in either case.

If you don't want to argue anymore, that's fine.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mawai, on 24 October 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

The justification I have heard is that the cbill value of the package is higher which guides the pack price to some extent. The Phoenix pack has the same pricing structure as the IS reinforcement pack.

Clans all have their own pricing structure ... basically $30 per 3 mechs instead of $20 when bought in bulk.

Except that people seem to forget something very important. IS mechs can share engines where as Clans can. What do I mean by this? Simple. For example I buy a IS pack, then only have to buy (1) 340 XL engine that I can now swap between all three of my Grasshoppers. Further I can sell all 3 standard engines for C-bills. However on a Clan pack, I am paying that $10 to own 3 identical XL engines that are fixed to the mechs and thus unsaleable.

So basically the theory that you pay more for Clan mechs because you get more C-bills worth of stuff is BS. By the time you sell off the 3 unused engines in each mech your barely having to pay anything extra to upgrade those poor IS mechs.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 25 October 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

In fairness, you do save 18 mil in DHS, the cost of upgrading to Endo, and the XL engines.

Panther and Koshi will likely fall in similar tiers.

Rest assured that a Clan Mech with SHS is literally DOA (unless, they remain unchanged, which is likely).

Edited by Deathlike, 25 October 2014 - 11:32 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 25 October 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

Rest assured that a Clan Mech with SHS is literally DOA (unless, they remain unchanged, which is likely).

Unless they add Clan Battlemechs (which they wont so long as omni restrictions are in place), there is not a single Clan Omnimech with SHS, so we don't have to worry about that at least.