83 replies to this topic

[mogs01gt]

SuomiWarder, on 24 October 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

I predict that the Clan V IS invasion battles will start to run out of IS defenders as IS pilots get tired of the firepower difference.

Im already tired of it!!

[Ph30nix]

divinedisclaimer, on 24 October 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Basically just dual gauss shouldn't exist, that's my only complaint. As far as game design goes the introduction of mechs that can carry two gauss guns and other weapons as well is too much damage, even for themselves. The spin-up is no challenge to many players.

Even if you just hard-locked that weapon to single-use-per-mech, it would still be useful due to it's insane projectile speed and awesome range. You just wouldn't be killing mechs in two hits with it.

you do know there are Cannon mechs that carry 2 guass right? there is even one Cannon mech that carries 3. I believe that one while cannon is not used by players in TT or Games.

Now in reality there is no weapon/mech on its own that is OP, It is the combination of various piece of equipment/weapons that would take it into potential OP range.

thats one reason why the timby is so cried about, it is a mech that can take advantage OF EVERY single good item clan has, Fast light engine, Low weight weapons, decent hard points, all upgrades needed and still plenty of crits/tons for weapons.

Biggest thing to me right now though is the Clan Xl's but once they release IS Light Fusions and give IS heavies/Assaults an option for more free tonnage with same survivability its going to make a huge differnce.

Edited by Ph30nix, 24 October 2014 - 11:51 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Voivode, on 24 October 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

The biggest problem is that the original TT game was based on a system of weighted probabilities (dice rolls where certain ranges qualify as hits/misses) in turn based combat while the video game version has aiming and real time combat. That has always been the difficulty in games based on Battletech intellectual properties. That;s why in the past very watered down, arcade-like versions were made. This game, while not adhering religiously to the rules of TT, is much closer than past games. This has accentuated the disconnect between aiming vs weighted probabilistic weapon hits and turn based vs real time combat. Some weapons and mechs have benefited more than others in this regard.

That said, I've played this game for over two years. The current balance between mechs and weapons is the best I've seen it. There is room for improvement, but balance feels more solid than it has in the past.

Really, that's it. I was playing a game last night and, with a 100% healthy mech, rounded a corner and got one-shotted by a Whale.

It's frustrating, sure, because I never had a chance to do anything and nothing would have saved me against that (what I can only assume was) 70+ pinpoint alpha. On the other side of the coin, it's a Whale: it's SUPPOSED to be nasty and powerful, and if I could have gotten to its side in my mech, the tables would have turned and I probably could have taken it apart, despite the 50-ton difference in our mechs.

The game's as balanced as I've seen it. I do get frustrated at times, but I usually take a deep breath, take a break, whatever, and then come back later.

...and kill a whale.

[Reitrix]

No 'Mech is truly Overpowered, Nor any combination of weapons.

What is overpowered is the ability to fire all of those weapons at the same time, to hit the same panel.

I challenge some quality units to play a private match (both sides record to youtube) where the teams may only chain fire, with the exception of MGs, they can't be chainfired and may be fired in a group with other MGs only.

I would very much like to see what the outcome of such a match would be.

Edited by Reitrix, 24 October 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

I hate that dual Gauss thing too. If I survive the 1st volley from someone sporting that loadout, I'll use terrain and try to flank them and rip them a new behind. Resist the temptation to stare down a DWF. That is asking for trouble. Stay in cover and flank if you can. 30 pinpoint damage makes a hole real quick.

True, PGI has tried to contain some of the damage from Clan weapons. For example, a single Clan ERPPC delivers 15 points of damage, but it splashes 5 of the damage to the adjacent components. So if you get hit in the center torso, 10 points goes to the center and 2.5 to each of the side torsos. If you get hit in the arm, 10 goes to the arm and 2.5 to the side torso, and 2.5 is lost.

The DWF can load up to 4 Gauss Rifles, but is only allowed to fire 2 at a time. The firing mechanic is explained here.

So PGI has tried to level the playing field some. The IS Quirk pass on Nov 4th should help as well.

Jody

[Angel of Annihilation]

Voivode, on 24 October 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

The biggest problem is that the original TT game was based on a system of weighted probabilities (dice rolls where certain ranges qualify as hits/misses) in turn based combat while the video game version has aiming and real time combat. That has always been the difficulty in games based on Battletech intellectual properties. That;s why in the past very watered down, arcade-like versions were made. This game, while not adhering religiously to the rules of TT, is much closer than past games. This has accentuated the disconnect between aiming vs weighted probabilistic weapon hits and turn based vs real time combat. Some weapons and mechs have benefited more than others in this regard.

That said, I've played this game for over two years. The current balance between mechs and weapons is the best I've seen it. There is room for improvement, but balance feels more solid than it has in the past.

You do realize that those die rolls you and everyone likes to points too where to simulate exactly what happens in game.

For example, I might aim with my dual gauss rifles at the enemy mech's CT but I just happen to step on a car right at the time I release my charged up rifles and it hits the enemies right leg instead. Opps I just rolled a 4 when I needed a 2. Next shot the idiot mech I am firing at is standing still....Yes!!! I just rolled my 2. Next shot the Altas I am firing at torso twists and my shot goes into his right arm instead....darn I just rolled a 5.

Basically the die rolls simulate exactly what happens in real time combat. Not every shot we fire hits where we want it to, in fact, most don't hit anywhere near where we intended and alot of fire misses completely. Also you could do a called shot on TT and pin point aim anywhere you wanted just like you can do in MWO and just like MWO, your not always going to hit with that called shot.

So lets face facts here, the whole die roll argument is just a load of BS that doesn't really hold water and pin point damage really doesn't exist.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 24 October 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Metus regem]

terrycloth, on 24 October 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

PPCs -- who knows? I mean, the realistic way to make a 'lightning gun' is to ionize a pathway through the air that the lightning will follow, so I guess they'd be as aimable as lasers.

Well that's how Particle beams work in real life... they use a laser to ionize the air for the charged particles to travail on...

[Dawnstealer]

Jody Von Jedi, on 24 October 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

The DWF can load up to 4 Gauss Rifles, but is only allowed to fire 2 at a time. The firing mechanic is explained here.

This is true, but that can also be Macro'd around.

[Reitrix]

Viktor Drake, on 24 October 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

You do realize that those die rolls you and everyone likes to points too where to simulate exactly what happens in game.

For example, I might aim with my dual gauss rifles at the enemy mech's CT but I just happen to step on a car right at the time I release my charged up rifles and it hits the enemies right leg instead. Opps I just rolled a 4 when I needed a 2. Next shot the idiot mech I am firing at is standing still....Yes!!! I just rolled my 2. Next shot the Altas I am firing at torso twists and my shot goes into his right arm instead....darn I just rolled a 5.

Basically the die rolls simulate exactly what happens in real time combat. Not every shot we fire hits where we want it to, in fact, most don't hit anywhere near where we intended and alot of fire misses completely. Also you could do a called shot on TT and pin point aim anywhere you wanted just like you can do in MWO and just like MWO, your not always going to hit with that called shot.

So lets face facts here, the whole die roll argument is just a load of BS that doesn't really hold water and pin point damage really doesn't exist.

Riddle me this.

If i choose to fire 6 Medium lasers 'at once' in table top, do all 6 Medium lasers strike on 1 to-hit roll? Or do they each have their own to-hit roll?

I ask because if my Timberwolf aims at Centurion and pulls an Alpha, even if he torso twists, whatever my alpha touches will vanish (95 point alpha)
Not only Timberwolf, i also have a 110 firepower Dire Wolf, Torso twist or not, something is being destroyed in that salvo.

Pretty sure in table top if i did that, I'd be dropping damage over the entire target, not one single location, unless i had the god of dice watching over me.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Dawnstealer, on 24 October 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

This is true, but that can also be Macro'd around.

Didn't realize this. I've never been one to try to game the system to this extent. I'll admit, I'm a min/maxer by nature, but I use the tools in the game, not 3rd party tools to try and get an edge.

It's sad that people think they have to stoop to that level to be able to enjoy a game.

[Gyrok]

TamCoan, on 24 October 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

From a pure design standpoint, anything that can destroy the opponent, has no counter and no drawbacks would be considered to be over-powered. Dual gauss+dual ppc is one such case. (Yes I know that the DW chassis has many drawbacks.) Balance is the effort to either introduce drawbacks or prevent said load-out from dominating.

As I've been on both the giving and receiving end of this type of equation, I have to agree that it sucks. As a player, it's pure awesomeness to shoot an unstoppable, pinpoint alpha into a mech and see it vanish. (Did that to an airborne shadowhawk and it was pure awesome.) On the flip side, it also sucks when you get hit with such a volley and know there was nothing you could do to stop it.

In most cases what people think is over-powered is just griping. In some cases it truly is overpowered and gets adjusted. The key is to take the emotion of all involved parties out of the equation and base it on pure logic and analysis.

Every kill shot is an unstoppable shot that could not be prevented because it killed you, so why is Gauss + PPC any different?

There is ALWAYS something you could do to avoid being shot. Using defilade better, pathing better, using cover more effectively, timing your shot better, taking different angles, using elevation...your perception of what is unstoppable is only your own. In this game, everything is OP and nothing is OP at the same time. It is entirely the perception of the player. A subjective preconceived notion.

For example, the underhive would have you believe LRMs are OP. The veterans would say they are situationally strong, but otherwise completely negated, which is it? Is reality one or the other? Somewhere in between?

Should we all just get online to go to a map and make our mechs hold hands around theta and sing kumbaya?

OP is the perception of the player, and too many players think that there is nothing you can do to avoid being shot...THAT is what is OP. The truth will free you and your mind once you accept that someone, somewhere, found a way to not get hit by that shot.

[Voivode]

Viktor Drake, on 24 October 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

You do realize that those die rolls you and everyone likes to points too where to simulate exactly what happens in game.

For example, I might aim with my dual gauss rifles at the enemy mech's CT but I just happen to step on a car right at the time I release my charged up rifles and it hits the enemies right leg instead. Opps I just rolled a 4 when I needed a 2. Next shot the idiot mech I am firing at is standing still....Yes!!! I just rolled my 2. Next shot the Altas I am firing at torso twists and my shot goes into his right arm instead....darn I just rolled a 5.

Basically the die rolls simulate exactly what happens in real time combat. Not every shot we fire hits where we want it to, in fact, most don't hit anywhere near where we intended and alot of fire misses completely. Also you could do a called shot on TT and pin point aim anywhere you wanted just like you can do in MWO and just like MWO, your not always going to hit with that called shot.

So lets face facts here, the whole die roll argument is just a load of BS that doesn't really hold water and pin point damage really doesn't exist.

Pin point damage was the norm in TT. Only missile weapons were different, with the number of striking missiles being rolled for. Hit with a medium laser in TT, whatever section you hit takes the full damage of that weapon. In MWO, due to lasers having "duration" (a product of the real time environment) that damage no longer gets applied to a single mech section. However, a gauss rifle will apply its full damage to a single section in MWO and TT both. This is what I mean by some weapons came out of the transfer from dice rolls and turn based combat better than others. It's a delicate thing to go between a table top game and FPS video game. There will always be peculiarities and issues with it.

Personally, I like where gauss rifles are at (people are really picking on those things in this thread ), since the limit to two gauss at a time and the charge up, it has a unique feel to it that takes a little thought and careful aim to use. But I do understand that PGI will change weapons from time to time in order to keep balance in the game. I won't hold that against them as long as they stick to their recent trend of incremental changes. They used to drop that nerf hammer hard!

[Reitrix]

Gyrok, on 24 October 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Every kill shot is an unstoppable shot that could not be prevented because it killed you, so why is Gauss + PPC any different?

There is ALWAYS something you could do to avoid being shot. Using defilade better, pathing better, using cover more effectively, timing your shot better, taking different angles, using elevation...your perception of what is unstoppable is only your own. In this game, everything is OP and nothing is OP at the same time. It is entirely the perception of the player. A subjective preconceived notion.

For example, the underhive would have you believe LRMs are OP. The veterans would say they are situationally strong, but otherwise completely negated, which is it? Is reality one or the other? Somewhere in between?

Should we all just get online to go to a map and make our mechs hold hands around theta and sing kumbaya?

OP is the perception of the player, and too many players think that there is nothing you can do to avoid being shot...THAT is what is OP. The truth will free you and your mind once you accept that someone, somewhere, found a way to not get hit by that shot.

So help me with this .. When you pop your head over a ridge and a Dire Wolf glances at you and pulls the trigger on 2 Gauss Rifles and 3 PPCs for 60 damage from 800 meters away and blows out your Mediums Side Torso, killing you instantly(IS), its a "play better" situation?

Without knowing exactly where every enemy 'Mech is at all times along with their loadout, and being able to know which way said target is facing and what heat state they're all in ... It's impossible to not get one shot due to the ability to drop massive pinpoint alphas all day long.

Take a situation where that Dire Wolf can only fire one gun at a time with 0.5 seconds between, The first GR round to hit you alerts you to danger on your CT, you twist, taking the second GR to your left arm while backing away his first PPC hits your R-ST because you twisted to get damage on your undamaged side, and his second 2 PPC shots land on your R-arm .

The Dire Wolf still planted 60 damage on you, but he didn't damn near blow out your CT with that one shot.

[YueFei]

Reitrix, on 24 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

So help me with this .. When you pop your head over a ridge and a Dire Wolf glances at you and pulls the trigger on 2 Gauss Rifles and 3 PPCs for 60 damage from 800 meters away and blows out your Mediums Side Torso, killing you instantly(IS), its a "play better" situation?

At 800 meters, the Gauss slugs will arrive in about 0.4 seconds and the PPCs will arrive in about 0.8 seconds, if he fires them simultaneously. Gives you almost half a second to twist to spread the damage. The possibility for counter-play is there, assuming you react in the same moment that he pulls the trigger (equal reflex times on the part of the shooter and the target). If he tries to time-on-target his salvo, he'll fire the PPCs first and then follow-up with Gauss, and the entire shot will take about 0.8 seconds to reach you.

Mechwarriors are supposed to have quick reflexes, anyways.

Things were quite different when Gauss and PPC projectile speeds were very similar, but now that they're so different I think it's OK.

That's assuming you're standing still at the crest of the ridge.

I'm not saying I'm l33t and never eat 50+ PPFLD to the face, but there's usually something I could've done about it but I just didn't react fast enough or I was lazy and not moving laterally.

[101011]

Reitrix, on 24 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

So help me with this .. When you pop your head over a ridge and a Dire Wolf glances at you and pulls the trigger on 2 Gauss Rifles and 3 PPCs for 60 damage from 800 meters away and blows out your Mediums Side Torso, killing you instantly(IS), its a "play better" situation?

Without knowing exactly where every enemy 'Mech is at all times along with their loadout, and being able to know which way said target is facing and what heat state they're all in ... It's impossible to not get one shot due to the ability to drop massive pinpoint alphas all day long.

Take a situation where that Dire Wolf can only fire one gun at a time with 0.5 seconds between, The first GR round to hit you alerts you to danger on your CT, you twist, taking the second GR to your left arm while backing away his first PPC hits your R-ST because you twisted to get damage on your undamaged side, and his second 2 PPC shots land on your R-arm .

The Dire Wolf still planted 60 damage on you, but he didn't damn near blow out your CT with that one shot.

If you get hit with a full alpha at 800 meters away to a side torso in an XL medium, you are playing your medium horribly wrong. Hell, if you are peeking over the ridge and he can see your side, you are doing it wrong. Complaining about medium surivability is alright, but using grossly exaggerated hyperbole is not.

[divinedisclaimer]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 24 October 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

The problem isn't even dual gauss. The problem is that gauss is front-loaded pinpoint damage that goes exactly where you aim it and players can shove it on any chassis with the hardpoints for it whether it should be on there or not.

Unfortunately I don't see a 'fix' for these particular issues (the defining thing about gauss versus AC is that gauss is one slug, so there's no real way to 'fix' the FL-PPD thing). Maybe if you could only charge one gauss at a time and couldn't start charging a second until the first fires? I got nothing.

15 damage doesn't ruin your day in one hit, 30 does.

Dawnstealer, on 24 October 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

Really, that's it. I was playing a game last night and, with a 100% healthy mech, rounded a corner and got one-shotted by a Whale.

It's frustrating, sure, because I never had a chance to do anything and nothing would have saved me against that (what I can only assume was) 70+ pinpoint alpha. On the other side of the coin, it's a Whale: it's SUPPOSED to be nasty and powerful, and if I could have gotten to its side in my mech, the tables would have turned and I probably could have taken it apart, despite the 50-ton difference in our mechs.

The game's as balanced as I've seen it. I do get frustrated at times, but I usually take a deep breath, take a break, whatever, and then come back later.

...and kill a whale.

It's sort of like stepping in front of a train. You should be aware of the train.

[divinedisclaimer]

Ph30nix, on 24 October 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

you do know there are Cannon mechs that carry 2 guass right? there is even one Cannon mech that carries 3. I believe that one while cannon is not used by players in TT or Games.

Why should I give a **** about some board game? This is a vehicular shooter. It has to be balanced on it's own merit. No other weapon in this game delivers 30 damage to a single health pool at 600 range with such high projectile speed. The other sniping weapons pale in comparison.

It isn't fun and it would be better if you could only charge and fire on gauss gun at a time. An equally good idea would be to offset the shots horizontally somehow so they don't hit the same place. A maximum convergence point.

I'm not saying 2xgauss isn't without it's disadvantages, you're very fragile as an XL, it's usually so heavy it becomes your exclusive weapon system, and the guns themselves are bombs waiting to explode and kill you.

Edited by divinedisclaimer, 24 October 2014 - 01:28 PM.

[1453 R]

I see a lot of butthurt complaints about Whales in this thread and many others, all complaining about how it can bore off a side torso in one salvo and how DARE it have fifty tons worth of firepower.

As I recall, a single Whale could lay waste to an entire regular heroid company in TT. Here, on e medijm with a modicum of awareness and intelligence can drop one fairly simply.

Are people EVER going to stop trying to facetank those damn things?

[Alexander MacTaggart]

1453 R, on 24 October 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

I see a lot of butthurt complaints about Whales in this thread and many others, all complaining about how it can bore off a side torso in one salvo and how DARE it have fifty tons worth of firepower.

As I recall, a single Whale could lay waste to an entire regular heroid company in TT. Here, on e medijm with a modicum of awareness and intelligence can drop one fairly simply.

Are people EVER going to stop trying to facetank those damn things?

Again, as said, the problem isn't the firepower, the problem is that it's pinpoint. The system (hit locations/locational damage) is not built around taking 60+ points of damage to one location at a time.

It works in table-top because damage is almost never pinpoint (you roll hit location randomly unless you have a targeting computer), but obviously you can't make hit locations random in a real-time computer game, people would haaaaate that.

So what you do instead is make damage come in 'packets'. Lasers work well. Clan Autocannons work well. Clan ERPPCs are at kind of this halfway point. But Gauss, PPCs and IS ACs 'break' this pattern by doing pinpoint damage.

Again, note that pinpoint damage in and of itself isn't the problem. But when coupled with a player's ability to aim and put it exactly where they want every time is when it becomes one.

[Reitrix]

YueFei, on 24 October 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

At 800 meters, the Gauss slugs will arrive in about 0.4 seconds and the PPCs will arrive in about 0.8 seconds, if he fires them simultaneously. Gives you almost half a second to twist to spread the damage. The possibility for counter-play is there, assuming you react in the same moment that he pulls the trigger (equal reflex times on the part of the shooter and the target). If he tries to time-on-target his salvo, he'll fire the PPCs first and then follow-up with Gauss, and the entire shot will take about 0.8 seconds to reach you.

Mechwarriors are supposed to have quick reflexes, anyways.

Things were quite different when Gauss and PPC projectile speeds were very similar, but now that they're so different I think it's OK.

That's assuming you're standing still at the crest of the ridge.

I'm not saying I'm l33t and never eat 50+ PPFLD to the face, but there's usually something I could've done about it but I just didn't react fast enough or I was lazy and not moving laterally.

And you can shave off 279 ms for that Gauss to arrive, since im playing from Australia. Meaning i have just over 0.2 seconds to react.

101011, on 24 October 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

If you get hit with a full alpha at 800 meters away to a side torso in an XL medium, you are playing your medium horribly wrong. Hell, if you are peeking over the ridge and he can see your side, you are doing it wrong. Complaining about medium surivability is alright, but using grossly exaggerated hyperbole is not.

Care to explain to me how i might get my cockpit above the ridge without exposing my Torso?

1453 R, on 24 October 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

I see a lot of butthurt complaints about Whales in this thread and many others, all complaining about how it can bore off a side torso in one salvo and how DARE it have fifty tons worth of firepower.

As I recall, a single Whale could lay waste to an entire regular heroid company in TT. Here, on e medijm with a modicum of awareness and intelligence can drop one fairly simply.

Are people EVER going to stop trying to facetank those damn things?

I have zero issues with the Dire Wolfs ability to carry 50 tons of firepower.
I DO however, take issue with the Dire Wolfs ability to repeatedly Alpha 50 tons of Firepower into a single pixel on my 'Mech.

The thing is, carrying a larger number of weapons should give a 'mech greater sustained damage, rather than greater damage in singular salvos.

Two 100 ton Assault 'Mechs facing each other down should not have its outcome determined by who had the bigger Alpha.
It should be determined by who managed their heat properly and equipped weapons that compliment each other.

If my Nova had to chain through all 12 of its lasers, I'd be much more evenly matched to a Centurion carrying just 2 - 3 weapons. As it stands, i just pull the trigger on 6 Lasers and burn his gun arm off before he even gets a chance to shoot me.