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Is The Comp Metagame All About Ppfld


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#21 A banana in the tailpipe

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 07:10 PM

View PostAresye, on 24 October 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:


Who are you, and what have you done with lockwoodx?!


I started taking the game seriously, and the abyss stared back at me.

#22 Kjudoon

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 07:30 PM

View PostUrsusMorologus, on 24 October 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

I'm guesing the comp metagame revolves around stacking the repeatable alpha as high as possible. Is that accurate?

When isn't it?

#23 YueFei

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:34 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 24 October 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:


HSR is good enough that 70 Kph lights are fair game, also makes them less suicidal.


Right now after you lose a leg, you move so slowly you can't even prevent yourself from being encircled and having the other leg chopped off.

At least if you could move at 70 kph, you could still move and even try to juke a little bit, while protecting the remaining good leg with the "dead" leg facing toward the enemy.

View PostDeathlike, on 24 October 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

What, remove stunlock mechanics?

What game do you think you're playing?

:P


Sorry, I didn't realize I was playing Vanilla World of Warcraft and getting ganked by a Rogue.

I better equip my PvP trinket and get into Berzerker Stance. ;)

#24 Kjudoon

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:41 PM

If you're constantly getting surrounded and legged out, you're overextending and playing overly aggressive or not watching the flow of battle on your minimap with one eye. Tone it down, stay with your team and you won't have it so much. ;)

#25 Lykaon

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:42 PM

View Postaniviron, on 24 October 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

By and large it's tons of lasers and legging, "drumsticking."

It was PPFLD until the PPC, the worst offender, was slowed down; PPFLD is only good if the damage goes where you want it, and with the PPC so slow it doesn't put damage on the right component (or even on the mech) nearly as often.

So the next best thing for dealing damage accurately is lasers, which are hitscan and by nature put the damage where your crosshairs are; however, the counter for that is torso twisting, which spreads the damage by changing what is under the crosshair.

The answer to that is to go for the legs, which can be hit from any angle, and are very difficult to miss with lasers. Even if you miss the leg you were going for, you'll probably hit the other one, which still helps getting kills; and if you don't finish off your target, a legged target is still easy prey.


And the answer to legging is speed and slim profile chassis.The faster your skinny legs pump more of the laser hits the dirt.

And if you want to know how to counter fast low profile mech chassis the answer is aim for the hips.

#26 Kjudoon

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:49 PM

I just hear Dave Chappelle in my head going "RUN JENNER RUN! PUMP THOSE CRAZY LEGS!"

#27 YueFei

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:55 PM

View PostKjudoon, on 24 October 2014 - 11:41 PM, said:

If you're constantly getting surrounded and legged out, you're overextending and playing overly aggressive or not watching the flow of battle on your minimap with one eye. Tone it down, stay with your team and you won't have it so much. ;)


It's not a problem to get surrounded and then legged out.

It's more of an issue of getting legged, and *then* surrounded and having the other leg chopped because you can't rotate out after being legged. I guess you could try to have teammates cycle in front of you to protect you, but still...

For me it's an issue of diversity of gameplay choices. If the game is designed in such a way that the legs are always the best target to shoot at, that makes the pool of choices more shallow. It also nullifies one of the skills in the game, which is torso twisting to spread damage across 5 hitboxes and soak damage through destroyed hitboxes for 50% mitigation.

It doesn't happen to me often because hardly anyone ever legs HBKs, at least at my level of play. I'm not crying about an issue because it affects me personally.

If the top players in the game find that the legs are always the best target, maybe we have a problem, no? Legs should still be an interesting target, and a valid choice to hit, but it would be more fun if it wasn't the always the best idea.

I'm not asserting that things should be one way or another, but I think it should be a topic for discussion, and I think input from top players would be real valuable.

Edited by YueFei, 24 October 2014 - 11:56 PM.


#28 kapusta11

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 12:01 AM

Competitive meta is all about doing as much damage as possible to a single component in as short time period as possible, preferably as far from your target as possible. FLD weapon combinations suited the cause in the past, now all what's left of it is twin Gauss but those builds are relatively fragile, except for Direwolves. 50 damage laser alphas apply most of their damage to one location still WITH the potential of doing more. Desynchronized, heavy and hot Gauss/AC/PPC combos are simply not worth it compared to new clan alternatives.

Edited by kapusta11, 25 October 2014 - 12:23 AM.


#29 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 12:27 AM

Kinda funny how my metawhale is still derping people in the face and one shotting speeding lights as they go by....as long as people stand still and arent paying attention ppc/gauss will always work...

#30 Josef Nader

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 03:19 AM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 25 October 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

Kinda funny how my metawhale is still derping people in the face and one shotting speeding lights as they go by....as long as people stand still and arent paying attention ppc/gauss will always work...


The whole point of competitive play is that you're fighting a team that has practiced moving around and paying attention, so I'm not sure your strategy works at the level of play OP is interested in.

Edited by Josef Nader, 25 October 2014 - 03:19 AM.


#31 Glythe

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 07:31 AM

I'd personally like to see advantages to using things like the Advanced Sensor mod.

I think that module needs a reboot and I'd love to see something like armor values next to a mech when the information comes up.
That would prevent the armor leg dropping. Good players can see your loadout and realize you dumped leg armor (always good to check for in a light vs an assault).

Just imagine if bad players could see your mech's ragdoll and realize you only have 40 armor. It would eliminate a great deal of this FoTM BS.

This game has ben alphastrike warrior online since we had 12 man teams. Before then it was better to be dps oriented because you had less people to hide behind and it was a big deal if you shut down.

#32 Hoax415

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 07:46 AM

...

did you read the topic? nobody ever drops leg armor that are playing the game anywhere near Mt.Tryhard.

Not that I don't agree with your sentiment, they should try to spruce up some of the garbage tier modules or those modules should cost like 300k

#33 Glythe

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 08:21 AM

View PostHoax415, on 25 October 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

...

did you read the topic? nobody ever drops leg armor that are playing the game anywhere near Mt.Tryhard.


Ever? Try again. Some of the competitive teams back in the day had one guy who specialized in the "has zero armor" mech. Yes literally they would take off somewhere between 80% or more of the armor to do ridiculous long range pinpoint alphas. His job was to wait about 30 seconds for the engagement and alpha poke/cool off/rinse/repeat.

In this day and age you can still drop a significant amount of arm armor on many mechs because they never shoot them..... they always go for torso.

#34 Josef Nader

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 08:29 AM

View PostGlythe, on 25 October 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

This game has ben alphastrike warrior online since we had 12 man teams. Before then it was better to be dps oriented because you had less people to hide behind and it was a big deal if you shut down.


Man, you folks have a ridiculously short memory.

Mechwarrior has always been about Alpha Strikes. People like easy button gameplay. Why put effort into managing multiple weapon groups when I can just find a bunch of weapons that are more or less the same and hold the buttons down till the other robot falls over?

It was twin gauss builds in CB, then it was Gauss/PPC, then it was SRMs, then it was AC5s/PPCs, and now its laser vomit.

People just don't want to pilot complex frankenmechs. They want the easiest route to victory. It's human nature, and it's tactically sound.

I studied historical fencing, and one day my instructor brought out parrying daggers so we could go over rapier/dagger technique. After going through some of the neat things you can do with the dagger in your off hand, he hammered home the idea that most people preferred not to use the dagger. Sure, the dagger gave them more options in a fight, but it also gave them more to think about, and that brief moment of thought slowed their reaction times and caused them to lose. They could get the same stuff done with just a rapier, even if they didn't have access to all the tricks the parrying dagger allowed, and the rapier was simpler on its own.

It's the same principle here. Why juggle multiple weapons when I can focus on having one and applying it to the maximum of it's potential?

#35 Kjudoon

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 02:17 PM

After playing this game for over a year, I have yet to fire a single alpha strike.

#36 Lily from animove

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 03:19 PM

View PostUrsusMorologus, on 24 October 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

I'm guesing the comp metagame revolves around stacking the repeatable alpha as high as possible. Is that accurate?


yes because you need to deliver the damage efficiently at a point to kill fast and porbably be bale to expose you as less as possible. That does only work with ppfld.

View PostSigilum Sanctum, on 24 October 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

This constant talk of PPC's being trash is beginning to nauseate me.

I run a timber wolf with 2 ERPPCs, 2SRM4 and an SRM6. Past few nights I've been absolutely wreaking havoc in the group queue.


this because people still try to snipe with them. tehy are a very decent PP energy AC 10. perfect in emchs with high mounted hardpoints like Torso in SC, and adder, probably also TBR, but haven't tested torso PPC in TBR so far.

View PostJosef Nader, on 25 October 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:


Man, you folks have a ridiculously short memory.

Mechwarrior has always been about Alpha Strikes. People like easy button gameplay. Why put effort into managing multiple weapon groups when I can just find a bunch of weapons that are more or less the same and hold the buttons down till the other robot falls over?

It was twin gauss builds in CB, then it was Gauss/PPC, then it was SRMs, then it was AC5s/PPCs, and now its laser vomit.

People just don't want to pilot complex frankenmechs. They want the easiest route to victory. It's human nature, and it's tactically sound.

I studied historical fencing, and one day my instructor brought out parrying daggers so we could go over rapier/dagger technique. After going through some of the neat things you can do with the dagger in your off hand, he hammered home the idea that most people preferred not to use the dagger. Sure, the dagger gave them more options in a fight, but it also gave them more to think about, and that brief moment of thought slowed their reaction times and caused them to lose. They could get the same stuff done with just a rapier, even if they didn't have access to all the tricks the parrying dagger allowed, and the rapier was simpler on its own.

It's the same principle here. Why juggle multiple weapons when I can focus on having one and applying it to the maximum of it's potential?


well on competitive level, the smallest mistake can have big causes, and so an easy build will mostlikely prevent making a mistake.

Edited by Lily from animove, 25 October 2014 - 03:21 PM.


#37 Saint Scarlett Johan

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 04:01 PM

View PostJosef Nader, on 25 October 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

The whole point of competitive play is that you're fighting a team that has practiced moving around and paying attention, so I'm not sure your strategy works at the level of play OP is interested in.


Nah, it's still relevant. It's just REALLY hard to fight the whale when there is a brawler wolf in your face, taking your legs.


View PostJosef Nader, on 25 October 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:


Man, you folks have a ridiculously short memory.

Mechwarrior has always been about Alpha Strikes. People like easy button gameplay. Why put effort into managing multiple weapon groups when I can just find a bunch of weapons that are more or less the same and hold the buttons down till the other robot falls over?

It was twin gauss builds in CB, then it was Gauss/PPC, then it was SRMs, then it was AC5s/PPCs, and now its laser vomit.

People just don't want to pilot complex frankenmechs. They want the easiest route to victory. It's human nature, and it's tactically sound.

I studied historical fencing, and one day my instructor brought out parrying daggers so we could go over rapier/dagger technique. After going through some of the neat things you can do with the dagger in your off hand, he hammered home the idea that most people preferred not to use the dagger. Sure, the dagger gave them more options in a fight, but it also gave them more to think about, and that brief moment of thought slowed their reaction times and caused them to lose. They could get the same stuff done with just a rapier, even if they didn't have access to all the tricks the parrying dagger allowed, and the rapier was simpler on its own.

It's the same principle here. Why juggle multiple weapons when I can focus on having one and applying it to the maximum of it's potential?



Look at how the military has streamlined tactics over just the last few decades alone.

When you have more moving parts, you present more opportunities for Murphy to mess with you.

Simpler is also faster. Faster is more aggressive. More aggressive wins fights. Ask the US Army and USMC, who rolled over the Iraqi Army so fast, that captured Iraqi officers were completely incapable of even fathoming how a military as large as the US' was so vicious.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 25 October 2014 - 04:05 PM.


#38 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 04:02 PM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 25 October 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

Kinda funny how my metawhale is still derping people in the face and one shotting speeding lights as they go by....as long as people stand still and arent paying attention ppc/gauss will always work...



When will Gauss/PPC not work? even if you miss w/e your aiming at you still blew off an entire other section of the mech.....stationary, moving, jumping....doesnt really matter.....moving just adds a few more seconds to your miserable existance....any attempt to take aim at the Gauss/PPC Whale will just result in him blasting yu in the face with all hes got...so, pretty much, he wins...

#39 Kjudoon

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 04:50 PM

View PostLord Scarlett Johan, on 25 October 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:


Nah, it's still relevant. It's just REALLY hard to fight the whale when there is a brawler wolf in your face, taking your legs.





Look at how the military has streamlined tactics over just the last few decades alone.

When you have more moving parts, you present more opportunities for Murphy to mess with you.

Simpler is also faster. Faster is more aggressive. More aggressive wins fights. Ask the US Army and USMC, who rolled over the Iraqi Army so fast, that captured Iraqi officers were completely incapable of even fathoming how a military as large as the US' was so vicious.

To modify a Murphy's law of combat:

"All things being equal, the side with the simplest Mech wins".

#40 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 04:55 PM

View PostKjudoon, on 25 October 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

To modify a Murphy's law of combat:

"All things being equal, the side with the simplest Mech wins".



Cheesiest mech wins....





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