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Allow Full Clanmech Customization


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#1 Herr Vorragend

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 03:08 PM

Hi,

we were discussing in this thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...summoner-needs/

at first about the summoner and later on about the clan mechs in general. The clan mechs also will have a quirk-treatment and so I'd recommend full customization of the clanmechs. This includes upgrades, JJs and maybe the engines.

With having all mechs in line when it comes to balancing, it'll be easier to do all balancing with weapon-settings/-options and quirks.

And the problems of some mechs like the summoner and the adder could be solved.
Please discuss.

#2 Nightmare1

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 03:12 PM

This would be the best and easiest fix. I understand why certain features are locked down on Clan Mechs, but the lack of customization is no longer necessary given the recent Clan nerfs. Unlocking things like JJs and Engines would enable us to make better use of currently handicapped chassis.

Edited by Nightmare1, 28 October 2014 - 03:12 PM.


#3 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 03:37 PM

Not going to happen. Don't even bother thinking about it. It's too late to shift into Reverse at this point.

-----

What needs to happen is MechWarrior games need to stop confusing the BattleMech customization process with the BattleMech creation process.

BattleMech creation:

Pick a weight.
Choose exact components.
???
Profit.

BattleMech customization:

Pick a BattleMech.
Limited number of upgrade packages (two per variant, maybe).
???
Profit.

-----

OmniMechs are right where they should be. It's the Inner Sphere BattleMechs that are out of whack.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 28 October 2014 - 03:37 PM.


#4 Moses Lanknau

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 03:41 PM

i agree, remove stupid alternate-chassis or let them be just loadout variants of one and the same mech, its actually not very cbtish!

#5 Herr Vorragend

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 03:45 PM

Why do you want to limit IS customization, Durant?

If omnimechs were right you should be able to customize even more. Your comment doesn't make sense imho.

#6 Draykin

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 03:52 PM

Dire Wolf has 55 tons to put into its weapons and equipment alone. It has an XL 300 engine. Allow for full customization and I guarantee the first thing you will see will be people upping that engine rating in exchange for a little less bang, and creation of a new meta. Imagine, a Dire Wolf running around at 64.8kph with dual Gauss Rifles. Do you really want that?

#7 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 08:05 PM

View PostHerr Vorragend, on 28 October 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

Why do you want to limit IS customization, Durant?

If omnimechs were right you should be able to customize even more. Your comment doesn't make sense imho.

OmniMechs in tabletop and lore had fixed armor (no increase or decrease of armor points, cannot change type of armor, cannot change location of FF criticals), fixed internal structure (cannot change type or the location of ES criticals), fixed engine (no change of rating or type). Like I said, we're about right with OmniMechs.

Why do I want to limit Inner Sphere BattleMech customization? Because in tabletop and lore, all MechWarriors pretty much drove standard 'Mechs. Only a rare few famous pilots had different setups. Why? Because in a unit (whether House or mercenary or whatever), you want all of your equipment to be standardized. Anything that's not standardized takes up far more maintenance time and effort. And getting parts for non-standard equipment can be a real bear. A MechWarrior piloted what was supplied to him/her by their unit, not what they actually wanted to pilot. You didn't want to be Dispossessed, so you learned to adapt and be at least average/decent in any 'Mech you piloted.

And it's all MechWarrior 2's fault -- it introduced unlimited customization, and that's just not BattleTech/MechWarrior.

#8 Herr Vorragend

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 10:51 PM

With 100 tons you have to upgrade the engine pretty much on a DW. in the end you're getting something what a jager can do better.

And the possible new meta can be deeper with weapon-settings and quirks.
Movement quirks can bring down certain loadoutconfigurations, but this needs to be done carefully.

I personally liked MW2, but I'm aware some people didn't like the full customization. I'm just searching for a way to solve some problems in Mwo. What would you suggest beside pushing further limitations? Would that be the right direction for a online computer game?
I'd wish to have every single mech enjoyable. I got almost all IS mechs and all the clanmechs. Certain mechs were hardly played after mastering anymore. And I like diversity on the battlefield.

#9 Lily from animove

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 02:59 AM

View PostDraykin, on 28 October 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

Dire Wolf has 55 tons to put into its weapons and equipment alone. It has an XL 300 engine. Allow for full customization and I guarantee the first thing you will see will be people upping that engine rating in exchange for a little less bang, and creation of a new meta. Imagine, a Dire Wolf running around at 64.8kph with dual Gauss Rifles. Do you really want that?


I don't think this is worse than the death turrets they are now. Is a dual gauss on a Direwolf more scray than a Dualgauss on a timber? not really, Dualgauss is scary as it is, hardly cares on which mech.
ALSO PGI can still limit available engine sizes for these chassis to prevent too extreme possibilities.

I don't think full customisation makes the situation more worse, because the beast clanmechs are already those having the optimised mix, think about TBR and SCR. FF + ES and therefore already superstrong.
Direwolf wouldn't even use ES or FF, with its current loadouts its often occupying all slots so ES and FF may not even be appealing for it. Only changing engine sizes would be really somethign people do on the Direwolf. But then it is going to cost you firepower, which is probably adding more balance than imbalance.
Imagine a kfx or adder can go 130kph or more. would make them more valid lights, yet they would have to sacrifice firepower for this.

If I could have full customisation on ym Nova I would probably put ES on it drop the JJ's increase engine size to get at least on SCR speed level. Then add some DHS (porbably 2) more. Would help the mech a lot. Adds the mobility it needs, because those JJ's are not really epically helping when you are still so fat and slow.

The coming gargoyle will just be an undergunned TBR, He would benefit a lot from this change to have at leats a chance to be better than a tbr, with the current options it will stay the underdog.

Take the mist lynx coming, a clanmech with fixed dstructure JJ' and engine. How many possibilities will it really have? You will hardly be able to customise much with this mech, they will all be nearly the same.

ECM is in the left arm, this means the mech will be about either 2 E or 2M and 1E So all you gonna see is 2 CERML or 2CSRM +1ML builds.
Or someone srm 6 + ballistics for rear torso scratching.
Maybe one guy with a CERLL if he wants to snipe. but the other things will mostlikely not be existent.

thats all, not very much more to do here and the speed is not that much more to make this chassis more appealing over a kitfox which offers more possibilities by having ecm and an 1E in this arm.

#10 Herr Vorragend

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 05:57 AM

100% agree

#11 Kali Rinpoche

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 07:44 AM

More pod options yes, customization no. Clan mechs are still superior to their IS counterparts.

#12 Talynn DeRaa

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 08:35 AM

I pilot clan mechs almost exclusively and even I think thats a bad idea. Clan mechs as they are, are very formidable, powerful, and versatile. if you want full customization, play IS mechs, thats what they're made for. I still use IS mechs on occasion, and I can't wait to use the Resistance Pack ones, most specifically the King Crab. Mmmm...Crabs.

#13 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 08:40 AM

This is the problem:

In MW:O you can have a single 'Mech performing many roles. Put in a faster engine and it can hunt lighter 'Mechs. Put in a slower engine and you increase your firepower potential to attack equal or heavier opponents. Switch weapons to go from a short range specialist to a long range sniper and back again.

You're supposed to use different 'Mechs to perform all of those roles, not just one 'Mech. That's how limited customization for both Spheroids and Clanners encourages the piloting of a variety of 'Mechs with a variety of weapon configurations.

#14 Lily from animove

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 03:52 AM

View PostDurant Carlyle, on 29 October 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

This is the problem:

In MW:O you can have a single 'Mech performing many roles. Put in a faster engine and it can hunt lighter 'Mechs. Put in a slower engine and you increase your firepower potential to attack equal or heavier opponents. Switch weapons to go from a short range specialist to a long range sniper and back again.

You're supposed to use different 'Mechs to perform all of those roles, not just one 'Mech. That's how limited customization for both Spheroids and Clanners encourages the piloting of a variety of 'Mechs with a variety of weapon configurations.


that would be true if it would be true by facts, but it isn't.

which role has the adder, the kit fox can't?
which role has the Nova (except overhating better) that the SCR can't
which role has the Summoner that the TBR can't?

They all have more or less the same speed, therefore no speed specific roles. yet they have ostly the same weapon ahrdpints, except a few mechs just having less or not even the options. And those with the upgrades have more space for wepaons. So what is the role of those inferior mechs when they don't have a single feature they can do better.

View PostKali Rinpoche, on 29 October 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

More pod options yes, customization no. Clan mechs are still superior to their IS counterparts.



this is not true, not evey clanmech is better than IS mechs, only a few are, and those won't get better, because they are already maxed. Yet those clanmechs that are inferior (even comapred to is mechs) could at leats be less inferior with these allowed.

otherwise explain me please how summoner or Nova are getting that epic by this change. or explain me how the Direwolf or TBR is getting more epic with these change?

#15 MrBlonde42

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 01:18 PM

Hmmm... No. The lore of omni mech design process is such that some equipment, the engine, and other items are "locked" on the mech. Ideally, omni mechs could load a greater variety of weapons (not limited to omni part hard points), but that's a far cry from unlimited customization.

Edited by MrBlonde42, 30 October 2014 - 01:19 PM.


#16 HorribleGoat

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 01:46 PM

You know I seem to read these topics all the time and you all seem to forget that not all chassis and weapons are available to all IS or Clan factions, merc units, or any mechwarrior. The IS and clan mech selection contains mechs from many factions and thus has mechs that perform the same role. Thats something to consider right?

If mech chassis were more restricted to faction selection and battlefield salvaging Id option for more customization with the salvaged parts and mechs. It would make sense to me. But the full customization would probably do more harm when everyone just used the "best" metabuilds cbills could buy in the stop and shop mechbay we have.

Of course MWO nor most Mechwarrior games follow the lore that strictly so it could happen, were the clan mech mechanic not already implemented as it is. I do doubt that they were to change the system their future plans are build on.

#17 Moses Lanknau

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 04:16 AM

yes there is actuall lack mechtypes and variants for faction specific use of them

but this is somthing pgi can easiely solve buy adding more mechs and variants to game!

i have played back in days mbt 3025 beta, there was no customisation, and hell yes u had to pick the right cbt mech or mech variant for your playstyle, but curiosly i didnt missed any lab ... i had played mw2 and mw3 before, those had way more options than mw4 or mwo ...

Edited by Moses Lanknau, 31 October 2014 - 04:16 AM.


#18 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 08:41 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 30 October 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

that would be true if it would be true by facts, but it isn't.

which role has the adder, the kit fox can't?
which role has the Nova (except overhating better) that the SCR can't
which role has the Summoner that the TBR can't?

They all have more or less the same speed, therefore no speed specific roles. yet they have ostly the same weapon ahrdpints, except a few mechs just having less or not even the options. And those with the upgrades have more space for wepaons. So what is the role of those inferior mechs when they don't have a single feature they can do better.

With my suggested system (stock Prime and Alternate Configurations only):
Adder can dual-ERPPC. Kit Fox can't.
Nova can have more hardpoints, and can jump. Stormcrow can't.
If you're a fan of jumpy 'Mechs, Summoner is your choice as all Alternate Configurations can do it. Only one Timber Wolf can.

But what I was actually referring to is this:

Take the Griffin:

1: Max engine plus max Streaks equals light-hunter.
2. Mid-rating engine plus max LRMs equals LRM-bomber.
3. Mid-rating engine plus max Large Lasers equals fast heavy hitter.

A single 'Mech type shouldn't be able to do those varied roles, and it can because we have nearly unlimited customization. If you want faster than Griffin standard speed, you should have to choose a different 'Mech. If you want weapons other than PPC plus LRM, you should have to choose a different 'Mech. That encourages variety. It would be the same with Clan OmniMechs. Going full customization would be bad for variety.

#19 Koniving

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 08:53 AM

View PostDurant Carlyle, on 28 October 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

OmniMechs are right where they should be. It's the Inner Sphere BattleMechs that are out of whack.


Agreed.

Take a moment to customize some mechs based on BT's limitations.
For example if you're using an 80 ton mech, limit yourself to engine multiples of 80.
80, 160, 240, 320, 400.

Now see how drastically that would affect your builds.

Now do the same with other mechs.
What happens?
What are the results?
To try and get the speed you want, you'll find yourself making sacrifices in weapons and armor even with XL engines.
Sometimes you'll find that if you drop speed potential, you'll have too much weight available with the XL engine and might convert to a Standard engine.
The list goes on. The value of Endo Steel increases quite a bit, as it'll free up those extra tons without the drastic change in weight that an engine would bring. And if you just need that tiny extra bit, low and behold, Ferro is right there.

Makes life kinda interesting.

What I find most interesting is that you'll probably equip weapons you'd never even consider using to make it work with whatever speed you're doing.

#20 Livaria

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 06:17 PM

The only suggestion I would make for IS engine customization would be tighter restrictions for engine ratings. Right now there is a huge selection to choose from, and that alone can change the role of a mech enough that it allows a particular chassis to outperform other mechs in speed or tonnage.

A firestarter that is *almost* able to move as fast as a locust, can be a bit of a problem when it comes to game balance.

I don't want an overly complicated solution, but if we want IS mechs to be more role-specific, then it would be a matter of getting a closer look at what a mechs engine limitations should be, then enforcing a more strict minimum and maximum engine rating. This could solve a few problems, however this also involves a lot of work as well since there's a *lot* of mech variants to cover.

Once they're finished with quirks and other things, I seriously think that IS min/max engine ratings is worth looking into further. It can be managed in the same way that they recently adjusted pulse laser damage.

Edited by Livaria, 17 November 2014 - 06:33 PM.






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