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Machine Gun Range Quirks Are All Fine And Good.. But Something Still Needs To Be Done With The Damage.


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#1 Foxfire

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 05:43 PM

At the end of the day, the 'fix' to hit registration that was coupled with damage reduction significantly reduced the effectiveness of MG's as a weapon system.

For the sake of the mechs that rely on MG's for a damage source(mostly light mechs like the Locust, Huginn, Raven 4x, Spider 5k), this needs to be addressed.

#2 FupDup

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 05:47 PM

Speaking of which, giving mechs +X% MG range quirks is relatively pointless most of the time. MGs being constant fire makes them unable to benefit from cooldown buffs, so something else would have to be done. Something like an increased critical hit chance should be doable with current coding. Maybe even a straight damage per bullet buff, but that might be getting too ambitious.

#3 Walluh

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 05:49 PM

Higher crit chance would be preferable to me. Use it for what it's intended for. Rip open their armor, then teeeeeear the structure apart with machine guns. It's not a primary weapon.

#4 Foxfire

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 05:57 PM

Increased Crit would be nice but I'd really like to have a reversal of the damage reduction that occurred when they fixed hit detection for MG's. That is the point when MG's went back into the lackluster and useless bin.

#5 Alek Ituin

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:04 PM

View PostWalluh, on 30 October 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

Higher crit chance would be preferable to me. Use it for what it's intended for. Rip open their armor, then teeeeeear the structure apart with machine guns. It's not a primary weapon.


Except that's not true, because several Mechs do use the MG as a primary weapon.

Those Mechs should have quirks that übercharge their MG's in to a usable primary weapon. Damage, crit chance, range, everything.

#6 Past

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:07 PM

If the AMS Overload Module can increase the rate of fire on an AMS couldn't the Ballistic cool down quirk increase the machine gun rate of fire also with a bit of coding work i wonder?

It does suck that the heat generation and the rate of fire quirks miss the machine gun completely.

#7 Spheroid

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:09 PM

There are rumors of a macro exploit that boosts mg damage 200-300%. I won't go into specifics least my post is deleted.

#8 FupDup

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:11 PM

View PostPast, on 30 October 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

If the AMS Overload Module can increase the rate of fire on an AMS couldn't the Ballistic cool down quirk increase the machine gun rate of fire also with a bit of coding work i wonder?

It does suck that the heat generation and the rate of fire quirks miss the machine gun completely.

I'll have to check the AMS code to see if it works the same way MGs do. To the XML documents!

(BRB)

Okay, I dug up the AMS coding:

  <Weapon id="1014" name="Anti_Missile_System" HardpointAliases="AntiMissileSystem" faction="InnerSphere">
	<Loc nameTag="@AMS" descTag="@AMS_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\Anti_Missile_System.dds" />
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="AMS" projectileclass="" numFiring="1" damage="3.5" heatdamage="0" impulse="0.001" heat="0.0" cooldown="0.0" ammoType="AMSAmmo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="120.0" maxRange="240.0" tons="0.5" duration="-1.0" lifetime="1.0" speed="100" volleydelay="0" maxheight="0" rof="30.0" spread="0.0" />
	<EffectList>
	  <Effect name="Beam" asset="" />
	  <Effect name="ParticleBeam" asset="mech_weapons.machine_gun.tracers" />
	  <Effect name="ParticleBeamFP" asset="mech_weapons.ams.tracers_fp" />
	  <Effect name="TraceEffects" asset="machinegun" />
	  <Effect name="Sound:FireLoop" asset="sounds/weapons:ams:ams_fire" float="0.0" />
	  <Effect name="Sound:PostFireLoop" asset="sounds/weapons:machinegun:machinegun_tail" float="0.0" />
	  <Effect name="DamageBrush" asset="Textures\\decals\\damage_brushes\\ac_20.tif" />
	  <Effect name="DamageBrushType" asset="direct" float="8" float2="8" />
	</EffectList>
	<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_AMS_Destroyed" />
  </Weapon>


Here is the Machine Gun for comparison:

<Weapon id="1024" name="MachineGun" HardpointAliases="Ballistic" faction="InnerSphere">
	<Loc nameTag="@MachineGun" descTag="@MachineGun_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\MachineGun.dds" />
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="Ballistic" projectileclass="" numFiring="1" damage="0.08" heatdamage="0" impulse="0.001" heat="0.0" cooldown="0.0" ammoType="MachineGunAmmo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="120.0" maxRange="240.0" tons="0.5" duration="-1.0" lifetime="1.0" speed="100" volleydelay="0" maxheight="0" rof="10.0" spread="1.5" maxDepth="10.0" critDamMult="9.0" critChanceIncrease="0.06,0.03,0.01" />
	<EffectList>
	  <Effect name="Beam" asset="" />
	  <Effect name="ParticleBeam" asset="mech_weapons.machine_gun.tracers" />
	  <Effect name="TraceEffects" asset="machinegun" />
	  <Effect name="Sound:FireLoop" asset="sounds/weapons:machinegun:machinegun_fire" float="0.0" />
	  <Effect name="Sound:PostFireLoop" asset="sounds/weapons:machinegun:machinegun_tail" float="0.0" />
	  <Effect name="DamageBrush" asset="Textures\\decals\\damage_brushes\\ac_20.tif" />
	  <Effect name="DamageBrushType" asset="direct" float="4" float2="4" />
	</EffectList>
	<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_MachineGun_Destroyed" />
  </Weapon>


They do appear to use the same continuous firing code with 0.0 cooldown and using the "ROF" code line to dictate how many shots they fire per second.



EDIT AGAIN:
I found the code for the AMS module:
<Module name="IS_Shield_3_AMS_Ammo_Feed" id="4039" CType="CWeaponModStats">
    <PilotModuleStats talentid="50" talentname="ePTWeaponShield3AMSAmmoFeed" equipType="Shield3AmsAmmoFeed" slot="WeaponMod"/>
    <PilotModuleWeaponStats compatibleWeapons="Anti_Missile_System"/>
    <Loc iconTag="EfficiencyIcons\ePTWeaponShield3AMSAmmoFeed.png" descTag="@Shield_3_AMS_Ammo_Feed_desc" nameTag="@Shield_3_AMS_Ammo_Feed"/>
    <WeaponStats operation="+" rank="1" rof="3"/>
    <EffectList>
	  <Effect name="ParticleBeam" asset="mech_weapons.ams.tracers_shield3" />
	  <Effect name="ParticleBeamFP" asset="mech_weapons.ams.tracers_fp" />
    </EffectList>
  </Module>


So, this completely confirms that we already have the code to modify the "ROF" attribute of continuous-firing weapons, such as the AMS (and MGs, and Flamers).

Edited by FupDup, 30 October 2014 - 06:21 PM.


#9 CocoaJin

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:13 PM

View PostAlek Ituin, on 30 October 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:


Except that's not true, because several Mechs do use the MG as a primary weapon.

Those Mechs should have quirks that übercharge their MG's in to a usable primary weapon. Damage, crit chance, range, everything.


They may use MGs as primary weapons, but are they primary anti-mech weapons? The references I see regarding MGs routinely describes their primary tasking as anti-infantry and other soft targets. Their use as anti-mech weapons is as a secondary, improvised anti-mech weapon that comes out of necessity and/or desperation.

Edited by CocoaJin, 30 October 2014 - 06:33 PM.


#10 Alek Ituin

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:18 PM

View PostCocoaJin, on 30 October 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

They may use MGs as primary weapons, but are the primary anti-mech weapons?


They are now. Until we have vehicles and infantry to fight, they're anti-Mech weapons like everything else

You know how easy it would be to make them useful? 0.10 damage per shot, making it 1 DPS per MG. That Locust/Huggin now does 4 DPS with its MG's, making it pretty damn useful. Mind you, this is only for Mechs that use the MG as a primary weapon, because those variants are forced to do so.

Also, globally remove the MG CoF so you can apply that damage where you want it.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 30 October 2014 - 06:20 PM.


#11 Foxfire

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:31 PM

View PostCocoaJin, on 30 October 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

They may use MGs as primary weapons, but are the primary anti-mech weapons?


As the game exists, if MG's don't have an Anti-Mech role(which they did, as crit seekers in the TT), then they are useless in this game.

#12 Foxfire

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:35 PM

View PostAlek Ituin, on 30 October 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:


They are now. Until we have vehicles and infantry to fight, they're anti-Mech weapons like everything else

You know how easy it would be to make them useful? 0.10 damage per shot, making it 1 DPS per MG. That Locust/Huggin now does 4 DPS with its MG's, making it pretty damn useful. Mind you, this is only for Mechs that use the MG as a primary weapon, because those variants are forced to do so.

Also, globally remove the MG CoF so you can apply that damage where you want it.



While I would love to see MG's boosted back to .1 per shot and lose the CoF, I see this as an Either/Or situation. Boosting the damage back up to .1 damage per shot would make MG's useful, as they were useful when the damage was .1 and the only thing that was changed was a fix in the detection of hits and a reduction of damage to .08... and eleminating the COF for MG's would allow more reliable damage to components, which would also be a significant boost. If you did both, then MG's could easily become overpowered.

#13 CocoaJin

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:35 PM

That's a stretch guys

#14 Foxfire

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:38 PM

View PostCocoaJin, on 30 October 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

That's a stretch guys


What is a stretch? Fact of the matter is that there aren't infantry units and light armored vehicles for MG's to be useful against.

The system, as implemented by PGI pre-damage reduction was very workable, in that MG's were lackluster against targets with armored but useful against exposed internals... which is something that is true to the TT game.

Making the argument of 'But they are anti-infantry weapons!' is meaningless when there aren't infantry units in this game and yet there are mechs built around utilizing MG"s as part of their primary loadouts.

#15 FupDup

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:43 PM

Also, adding infantry wouldn't make MGs suddenly a good weapon. Lasers in MWO are equally good at killing infantry. All you have to do is point the laser at a soldier, click your mouse, and then watch as he is helplessly vaporized by the beam instantaneously. And you can also drag the beam over multiple infantry troopers to kill a whole squad. The Clan ERLL in particular, with a 1.6 second duration, would be able to kill a LOT of soldiers before the beam ran out of juice.

Having weapons be anti-infantry only worked in Tabletop because Tabletop could arbitrarily assign each weapon a number of troopers it killed per turn. Tabletop could force a Medium Laser to only kill 1 soldier per turn and they could give a Machine Gun the ability to kill 2-12 soldiers per turn. But that is impossible in MWO, because we can AIM and drag our pewpew beams over multiple troopers. That Medium Laser in MWO can kill multiple soldiers each time it's fired, depending on how close together they're standing.

It cannot work in MWO. Get over it, stuff your anti-infantry business deep into your rear center torso, and embrace our new 20 ton anklebiting overlords.

Edited by FupDup, 30 October 2014 - 06:47 PM.


#16 Alek Ituin

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:56 PM

View PostFupDup, on 30 October 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

embrace our new 20 ton anklebiting overlords.


I for one, welcome our Locust overlords.

#17 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:56 PM

View PostFoxfire, on 30 October 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

At the end of the day, the 'fix' to hit registration that was coupled with damage reduction significantly reduced the effectiveness of MG's as a weapon system.

For the sake of the mechs that rely on MG's for a damage source(mostly light mechs like the Locust, Huginn, Raven 4x, Spider 5k), this needs to be addressed.


it's fine as is. Massed MG's already tear up mechs so damn fast that it's criminal as it sits.

The last thing I need to see is a fast light that's using an ANTI INFINTARY WEAPON against a mech dropping it any faster than it already does.

You choose to run a light mech that cannot do the same damage ratio as larger mechs, you have made the choice to pilot that mech, knowing that speed is your life and that your weapons are more for harassment and less for straight out kills.

You do not need a buff to a weapons system that is technically barely even supposed to scratch paint, when you have such a high crit chance with the weapon that you crit out most any component the moment it's opened with just a graze of machine gun fire to the location.

#18 FupDup

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:57 PM

View PostAlek Ituin, on 30 October 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:


I for one, welcome our Locust overlords.

Let's take this to the next level:

Posted Image

20 ton light with 15 hardpoints, including 12 Machine Guns. WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!

#19 Alek Ituin

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:59 PM

View PostFupDup, on 30 October 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Let's take this to the next level:

Posted Image

20 ton light with 15 hardpoints, including 12 Machine Guns. WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!


I'M LOOKING AT IT.

I for one, welcome our new Piranha overlords.

#20 Foxfire

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Posted 30 October 2014 - 07:02 PM

View PostFlash Frame, on 30 October 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:


it's fine as is. Massed MG's already tear up mechs so damn fast that it's criminal as it sits.

The last thing I need to see is a fast light that's using an ANTI INFINTARY WEAPON against a mech dropping it any faster than it already does.

You choose to run a light mech that cannot do the same damage ratio as larger mechs, you have made the choice to pilot that mech, knowing that speed is your life and that your weapons are more for harassment and less for straight out kills.

You do not need a buff to a weapons system that is technically barely even supposed to scratch paint, when you have such a high crit chance with the weapon that you crit out most any component the moment it's opened with just a graze of machine gun fire to the location.


Funny thing is, even before the damage reduction, they barely scratched paint. It was when what the paint was on was removed that they became useful.

As is, unless you are face planting into the mech you are shooting at, MG's are back to being useless. It is honestly to the point in which I am seriously considering stripping the MG's out of my Huginn, upgrading the SRM's to A-SRM 6's with more ammo, and upping the engine size. MG's have gone back to feeling like you are smacking someone around with a wet noodle.

At the end of the day, any weapons in which a mech is dependent upon is required to be useful. It doesn't matter if you think it is only an anit-infantry weapon(which it wasn't in the TT).. without any infantry in this game to be useful against, then you might as well remove the MG's completely and give light mechs with a lot of ballistic slots energy slots instead.

Edited by Foxfire, 30 October 2014 - 07:06 PM.






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