105 replies to this topic

[Richard Warts]

mithril coyote, on 16 November 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

FRR for life.. and if the FRR gets conquered? FRR-in-exile.

We've never been conquered, only occupied.

[Magna Canus]

Mech The Dane, on 07 November 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

It is good that you ask! I will have a proper answer for you at the end of the month. Good points. I think I am going to want to get together with the leadership of the FRR and see if they'd be willing to come up with a more structured or functional Althing. Something that wont step on anyone's toes, but at the same time, will be effective in CW. Earlier I brought up creating a sort of FRR-Wide ranking-recognition system or 'Alt-Ranks'. I kind of let that stew for a bit, but I'll return to that as well. We've all been raiding distant shores and earning glory and boon for ourselves, perhaps now is the time that we come together and form our own Great Heathen Army.

I have been entertaining a real vision lately about a great FRR coalition unit for all loyalists with a ruling council formed by the leaders of all FRR units currently in existence willing to merge into the coalition. What I gathered from CW is that you will be forming defense / attack forces from a single unit that is then filled out with lone wolves and mercs. A great coalition would be an advantage for the FRR as a whole allowing us to draw from more players in a single unit rather than a small number of players supported by randomly assigned players.

[Richard Warts]

I concure. We must form a coalition comprised of the most competitive members of each unit to train for CW. To quote Gevurah here who proposed a very reasonable structure for a competitive group:

"The structure was like this:
2 mandatory shoots per year, barring major issues. These were the 'nationals'. AKA a big competitive event involving 15,000 total competitors. We would enter 2-3 teams of 8 each year for several different events (pistol, musket, carbine, mortar). We typically had an "A" team and a "B" team with "C" being available spares.

The A team was the best of what we had. I typically occupied the bottom slot of this or the top slot of B team. Teams were classified based on standings from previous years (by the tournament committees). So for example A might be shooting class A-1 and B might be shooting class B-3. All of this is less relevant to the issues at hand but more to give you an idea of how it went.

A team regs were very strict; you had to have your **** together to a precise T. Perfect class A uniform (in our case, very difficult due to the unit we represented), meet certain shooting criteria, have the right equipment, and basically meet the performance standards.

B team regs were much more relaxed. Uniform was less strict and shooting criteria was 'we prefer good shooting but it's not really necessary'. B team frequently took medals because they shot in easier competitions.

A team might not get medals at all because of how stiff competition was. They were, however, vastly more prestigious to achieve. Of all my medals, getting silver in A-1 carbine at a nationals is far and away the best I have.

And on it goes.

How it relates:
We had two mandatory shoots per year, as mentioned. These would equate to major team tournaments or CW events of vital importance. It also meant if you didn't show you got listed as inactive.

We also had 1-2 extra shooting events per month. These were smaller competitions ranging in the 500-1000 competitor range. ATTENDANCE TO THESE AFFECTED YOUR LIKELYHOOD OF GETTING ON A TEAM. The reason was we maintained an average of shots/hits which was then given a multiplier against how many shoots you attended per year. This assured only the best and most dedicated shooters would be on A-team.

Here is what I propose -
Have one mandatory training session per month. Missing this without a valid reason means inactive competitive status.
Have extra sessions as often as you like. Preferably 1-2 times per week. Since you're working around Europeans AND Americans I'd recommend times which work best for both groups or two separate times which work better for each respective group.
Have 2-3 mandatory events per year in terms of serious competitions. Example would be the Yule event typically run or other community run events. There are plenty of lance tournaments and what not.

This will give you attendance spikes on major event days. It will also give you a hardened core of 4-8 players who will be consistently there.

Give people appropriate time beforehand to prepare. In my case, we knew the schedule for the whole year. In this case, it might be useful to assign an adjutant (as we did) to handle additional planning matters.

Returning from inactive status means you come back as a probationary member. You have to attend X events in a row to achieve 'full' competitor status. This ensures that your A team isn't populated by a bunch of fair weather shooters.

Your A team is your backbone in 12's. Even if it's only 4 guys, they'll carry harder, further, and better. They'd be the equivalent of special forces within the Army. The other competitive guys who show up once in a while but meet the main requirements would be your B team and would be used to fill out the 12's roster for matches. They're your better than average grunts.

Practice events
Be happy you have a solid core showing, this is very useful.
Get premium time and setup a room. Use these rooms for these types events:
2v2
4v4
1v1.

Have people split off based on the numbers available. Advise what weight classes you're practicing that week. So let's say you have 'medium mech 1v1' practice but 8 people show. Have them break off into groups 2 groups of 4 in diff parts of the map. Signal the start and each one begins their practice.

I know I'm probably overloading you at this point. Main points I want to make are:
Keep practice fresh
Keep it accessible
Make accommodations for both the hardest of the hardcore and those who can only make a few events per month.
Set mandatory practices and events with inactive status/probationary flags.

Thoughts?"

[Richard Warts]

What I was saying is that none of us have the numbers to sport a full 12 man in CW all of the time (every single day). In most cases it will be composed of a few members from a competitive group with random people to fill in if said group is unable to put together a 12 man in time. Because we're divided between different time zones forming this coalition of competitive players who train with each other will maximize the number of "elite" players we can field.

Mech The Dane, on 24 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

I also think the ALT Rank system previously discussed can help handle mixed drop management.

Won't do you any good if these people haven't trained together, hence the importance of mixed group training (which in all likelyhood will be made up of our most active and competitive players anyway).

Mech The Dane, on 24 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

A 12 man is not just a bunch of a hotshots in a drop, it is a team. People need to be kitted out correctly(meta), know their role(meta), be familiar with the tactics for different maps(meta), and trust the drop commanders(practice). These are things that any player with a good attitude and a willingness to succeed (aka embracing the meta) can master, regardless of "skill".

This further underlines my point, one I made back in May - standardized(meta) group play for the competitive FRR scene.

Mech The Dane, on 24 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

two they will be spending their time playing in a different group anyways.

A.) They already do unless group leaders start forbidding or discouraging their members from doing so - which would be counterproductive if not disastrous. Players would become fed up and leave, further weakening the FRR.

Mech The Dane, on 24 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

If you take all those players and send them to a super team where they work on that stuff, you're basically gutting the other units.

B.) Not at all, you're strengthening the FRRs position in CW. Remember what the devs said about CW, whomever has the most members in a CW group will be the ones to claim planet "x" for their own (for 24 or 48 hours). e.g. if Isengrim has the majority of players on the team and that team wins 7 or more objectives, they hold the title to the planet - not the other participating group members.

Mech The Dane, on 24 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

those players will be less adapt at playing within their own 12 mans

C.) Tell that to the House of Lords. Having members from other units train together doesn't make them less able to play with their own group, it makes them better. And who wouldn't want that?

Mech The Dane, on 24 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

If units want to be good in CW, if they want to be competitive, if they want to not be a hindrance to the FRR in CW then they need to wake up and start working towards it internally.

I agree that working on it internally is a major part of preparing for CW, but I disagree with the notion that we'll never have to train together - that's just not being fully prepared. Clanners do it, and it's working well for them and they already have the numbers. We don't.

Mech The Dane, on 24 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Training, teamwork, good metabuilds and practice are better than a quickly pulled together group of "all-stars".

I absolutely agree, which is why training together won't make us a "quickly pulled together group of all-stars" it will make us a force to be reckoned with. All it will do is make our already competitive group members that more skilled which only strengthens our respective units, not weakens them.

[Jarl Dane]

I did something weird, here's my post:

Tabu 73, on 24 November 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

I concure. We must form a coalition comprised of the most competitive members of each unit to train for CW.

I agree in forming a united FRR government and even have already written up a proposal on it. I also think the ALT Rank system previously discussed can help handle mixed drop management. But I do not see the wisdom in taking each groups best players and sending them off to play as its own team.

A 12 man is not just a bunch of a hotshots in a drop, it is a team. People need to be kitted out correctly(meta), know their role(meta), be familiar with the tactics for different maps(meta), and trust the drop commanders(practice). These are things that any player with a good attitude and a willingness to succeed (aka embracing the meta) can master, regardless of "skill". If you take all those players and send them to a super team where they work on that stuff, you're basically gutting the other units. One, those players will be less adapt at playing within their own 12 mans, and two they will be spending their time playing in a different group anyways.

Might as well just make a new unit for all the comp players in the FRR and tell all the other units not to participate in CW, as they will probably only hurt us.

Let me take a step back and be a little clearer on what I am saying.
If units want to be good in CW, if they want to be competitive, if they want to not be a hindrance to the FRR in CW then they need to wake up and start working towards it internally. Get your 12 man's up to snuff. Don't let your members be casual, don't let people take joke builds into matches and practice terrible strategies.

If you feel you have to cater to the people who refuse to get with the program, then you've already lost. Think I am wrong? Or being overly dramatic? Get your 12 man together and drop in the group queue. Record how many times you win against drops made up of mixed groups, how many times you win against other 12 man drops. If at this stage, before "hardmode" CW drops, you aren't at least winning 50% of your drops..then you are not ready for CW.

Training, teamwork, good metabuilds and practice are better than a quickly pulled together group of "all-stars". If your unit cannot commit to that then you're better off letting your competitive players go free, rather than letting people unwilling to do the work, pull them down.

[Malzel]

While the 1RDR is definitely interested in this kind of FRR cooperation, (I assume most factions are) I haven't chimed in much simply because we don't know the ins and outs of how CW will work. Too many variables, too many uncertainties, and all we have to go on is speculation and assumptions.

Most of what I've read is referring to CW as a sort of 12v12 tournament circuit, where we get our group and go fight SJR for some FRR world, and maybe that will happen, but when I look at the Dev's descriptions of CW, I don't think that will be the prime mode of CW moving forward. Especially if the "peak windows" are relaxed, winning in CW will be less about professional, competitive skill, and more about unit size and longevity.

From what I see, attacks are going to come constantly around the clock, some from organized opponents, some from PUGs, so having one awesome competitive team isn't going to win all the battles. We could field the best FRR all-stars team imaginable, (per Tabu) or share professional lances with an FRR-approved drop commander (per Dane) and stomp some Ghost Bear unit for Trondheim, but as soon as we all celebrate and log off, an invasion window will open in another 2-4 hours and PUG drops will determine the planet's fate, so it was all for naught.

If my understanding of CW mechanics is accurate, then a cross-unit all-star team is less necessary than simple time coordination between units, scheduling shifts to defend planets so that during each invasion window there's at least one FRR outfit watching a planet. But even that breaks down unless we have enough units to cover every planets, every day, during every window.

But like everyone else, I'm just speculating here, so it's hard to make any real plans before we actually see how CW works. It's like we're trying to form a sports team before the sport has been invented; or design air traffic control policy before airplanes exist.

I don't mean to discourage discourse, because I think this is a wise endeavor, but there's really not much we can do until CW arrives and we can assess how it works and how we fit into it.

Edited by Malzel, 24 November 2014 - 03:15 PM.

[Malzel]

Something we can do in the short term is try to schedule FRR scrimmages. We've always talked about it, but it never pans out. If we want to practice coordinating for CW, we should practice coordinating events. We've got the Scandinavian Skirmish thing going on. Let's turn it into unit vs unit practice, a who's who of FRR groups ready or practicing to get ready for CW, even if we just run 4v4 private matches against each other.

The FRR Hub is there, there's even channels set up for it, all we need people to do is show up. If we need to change the date/time, we can do that, just sound off.

[Jarl Dane]

Okay. I think, if Malzel's description is accurate, that the ALT Commander thing is still the most useful policy. A list of officially recognized drop commanders to help lead the teaming masses to victory.

A big concern about units being ready is completely internal. Perhaps no unit can make much of a difference, given the numbers of people playing; however that doesn't mean the unit will keep playing.

Let me return to what I said before, go to the group queue with your 8,10,12 man drops. And see what % you can win. Now maybe it wont make a difference on the big game board. But it will make a difference to your unit.

Units who have spent years promoting the FRR, being active with-in the community, and telling themselves that when CW hits they will be on the front line - could end up with their morale utterly crushed if they cannot manage to make a positive contribution in CW.

People can only be rolled so many times before they stop playing a game mode.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 24 November 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[Magna Canus]

Tabu mentioned an allstars FRR team and I think that would be great for scheduled tournaments where the focus is Faction/Clan specific, but Malzel has an excellent point when he says that our planets will be under attack around the clock and that we need every warrior we have to gear towards CW in ernest.

I come back to my note about a great cooalition and would like to extrapolate a bit on the idea, or more accurately how we can game the CW draft.

1. Every unit that wants to remain a separate unit can stay a separate unit, but
2. In game, in the actual client, we create the heathen army tag and we all assign ourselves to that unit.

When an attack/defense is initiated the client will be looking for a group from the same IN GAME unit that will then be filled out with random players. So if we have 5 Hussars online, and 7 Isengrim for example and we all carry the in game heathen army tag, we get to collect together as a single force without the "unit" restrictions. Everybody drops onto the same TS channel and the game is on.

[Stormwolfe13]

Iron Serpent has always been, and will always be, a bunch of big dumb brawling space vikings.... that will not change. Most of us feel that the outlines PGI has provided regarding CW have come to the conclusion that their plans for CW are pretty crappy (we will see if we are wrong about that when it actually arrives) and will be generally dominated by the larger "Elite" Units. Iron Serpent has always been against the "elitist" mentality and feels that anyone who wants to participate in any aspect of the game should be allowed to. Unfortunately PGI has as outlined a system that seems to preclude that sentiment. Judging from what has been written here and elsewhere regarding CW it already seems to be heading strongly in that direction. Regardless of all this we do not plan to change from the FRR. Most of us (in Iron Serpent) would have preferred a CW that looked more like that outlined in the http://innerspherewars.eu/. Iron Serpent does plan to participate in CW. How much we participate in CW will remain to be seen.

Edited by Stormwolfe13, 25 November 2014 - 03:18 AM.

[Jarl Dane]

Magnakanus, on 25 November 2014 - 02:51 AM, said:

I come back to my note about a great cooalition and would like to extrapolate a bit on the idea, or more accurately how we can game the CW draft.

1. Every unit that wants to remain a separate unit can stay a separate unit, but
2. In game, in the actual client, we create the heathen army tag and we all assign ourselves to that unit.

About that, the Isengrim do some mixed drops with the SLR, and they actually have a similar plan. There is going to be a Mercenary Star super unit/alliance. All those comp teams that use the Merc Star website will leave their current units (with maybe a caretaker account as leader) and join the super alliance unit. That way during peak hours they can be dropping like 3-4 12 mans at once, reaping up the loyalty points and rewards. Their intent is to switch to the losing faction every few weeks, that way to gain further rewards (per PGI's hints).

They think that giant "Eve-like" alliances are going to become the norm, due to smaller units being completely ineffectual in CW. So that is something to chew on. However it would require all of us..dropping our units for the Great Heathen Army unit. Which... could be scary.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 25 November 2014 - 03:09 AM.

[Malzel]

Magnakanus, on 25 November 2014 - 02:51 AM, said:

1. Every unit that wants to remain a separate unit can stay a separate unit, but
2. In game, in the actual client, we create the heathen army tag and we all assign ourselves to that unit.

This makes sense on paper, but competitive units excel through communication. Being in the same MWO unit, but split between different forums/groups in real life, means that we're not really communicating with each other outside of matches, which means that enforcing any standards, discipline, and teamwork will be like herding cats. Not to say I don't like the idea in theory, but if you've been in any of the house-run Tourneys so far, you know it's hard enough just to get different units to show up at the same time, let alone work together with any sort of cohesion.

Stormwolfe13, on 25 November 2014 - 03:07 AM, said:

Iron Serpent has always been against the "elitist" mentality and feels that anyone who wants to participate in any aspect of the game should be allowed to.

To be fair, I think there will be more place in CW for the "casuals" than most folks believe. The large, competitive units will have a definite edge, certainly, but even the most die-hard of try-hards can't be here all day, every day. In the periods they're gone, the casual units will be determining the shifts of CW just as much as the competitive ones. That's why I think scheduling will be important as a faction, (granted, I'm sure the big conglomorates will be scheduling likewise) but we'll see.

Mech The Dane, on 25 November 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

They think that giant "Eve-like" alliances are going to become the norm, due to smaller units being completely ineffectual in CW. So that is something to chew on. However it would require all of us..dropping our units for the Great Heathen Army unit. Which... could be scary.

I've felt this was going to become true since they announced CW will be handled in 'round-the-clock battles, as opposed to scheduled matches between opposing units. It's not about having the best pilotsto defend your turf against the occassional attack, it's about having enough pilots to defend your turf all day, everyday. (Obviously having both is best, but even reasonably-cohesive casuals can repulse attacks from PUGs or lesser-trained units) In that regard, smaller units will have almost no chance of actually holding planets in their name, and will just occassionally chip in to attack or defend some planet or other. That's fine in the grand scheme of things, but the only units going to "leave their mark" on the map are going to be the huge ones that can boast a presence during every invasion window.

Honestly, negotiating some super-merger of the FRR competitives makes the most sense on paper, but that's not something I expect to happen, and even if we were to discuss it, it would wait until we were sure that was the most effective means to our ends.

[Richard Warts]

To expand a little on points made by Dane, Magna, and Malzel perhaps what's best at this moment is to handle our training internally. We can scrimmage against each other to keep our skills sharp if their aren't any tournaments taking place, and to keep an open mind to one day forming a superunit if that is indeed what provides us the best chance to compete/survive in CW.

Edited by Tabu 73, 25 November 2014 - 07:27 AM.

[Jarl Dane]

In. That. Case.

Who wants to do a 12 man scrimmage this Friday or Saturday evening NA timezone?

[Damon Howe]

Unless I'm mistaken, we have a Company practice on Fri or Sat around 8pm EST. They're trying to start practices on the FRR Hub so we have more opportunities to communicate. Not sure if they'll have 12, but you'll probably be able to find them.

[Abivard]

The way CW is sounding like it is going the small unit is not going make any impact on it.

The advantage of a single in game tag with multiple units has much merit to it.

We would basically be creating an Army out of our separate units by doing this, not a bad thing to do all considered.

Most FRR units are already working closely together and often in mixed drops together, we all share a Strong identity with our Faction, The only real block might be ego's, let us set ego's aside, no one here seems to have problem egos in the first place so this should be relatively easy.

No unit would lose it's name or identity, it instead would have gained a part in a greater whole, the FRR!

[Prussian Havoc]

Abivard, on 25 November 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

The way CW is sounding like it is going the small unit is not going make any impact on it.

The advantage of a single in game tag with multiple units has much merit to it.

We would basically be creating an Army out of our separate units by doing this, not a bad thing to do all considered.

Most FRR units are already working closely together and often in mixed drops together, we all share a Strong identity with our Faction, The only real block might be ego's, let us set ego's aside, no one here seems to have problem egos in the first place so this should be relatively easy.

No unit would lose it's name or identity, it instead would have gained a part in a greater whole, the FRR!

Such a Faction Tag / Army would be of interest to some few Lone Wolves and Mercenary Corps Units who can appreciate the distinction/advantage of contributing directly to a fight under an Aggregate Banner while in truth remaining true to their own individual principles and fellow Unit brothers-in-arms.

So few Mercenary Corps Units and no Lone Wolf will ever see their own banner fly above a world in MWO... if presented to them as a unique FRR-provided opportunity to retain their own identity BUT FOR A TIME join a cause where their contributions will leave its mark/tag on world after world...

...where they wouldn't join a House Unit, a true "Army of Heathens" (where the Barbarian Horde can come and War!) could be unique enough to give FRR an marked edge in the Inner Sphere struggle to recruit no retain its Mercenary forces.

[SRC472]

In my opinion we should all merge at least in game into a large FRR unit. Most of us play already together anyway. We are usually present in the FRR hub when we are online in the game. It would be quite easy to just switch in to a new community warfare channel every time we attack or defend a planet.
Leadership should be given to the unit leader who brings the most member into the new unit. Next high ranking positions with all possible rights to the other unit leaders depending on member numbers.
To be honest I don't know how you unit-leaders get along, but the future of the FRR in CW should be worth at least a try in game. Maybe we can put it up for a vote in each unit, to see how much support merging in game has.

[Jarl Dane]

"The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote".

I put a vote up in my forums.

[Grim DeGrim]

Malzel has the right of it. Too soon to tell.

Malzel, on 24 November 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

But like everyone else, I'm just speculating here, so it's hard to make any real plans before we actually see how CW works. It's like we're trying to form a sports team before the sport has been invented; or design air traffic control policy before airplanes exist.

PS - my vote was "no". If anyone has played planetside 2,then you know that the non-comp's population has a huge impact on map warfare. You don't always need Cavalry, sometimes you just need foot soldiers. And more foot soldiers are easier to get, and we're likely short as is...

PPS - Stormwolf just won the thread... Very opportunistic post. Probably picked up 10 guys from the scary tone of this thread! (BTW, I ain't scared...)

Edited by Grim DeGrim, 27 November 2014 - 04:12 PM.