307 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

martian, on 29 November 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

The problem is that PGI would have to ship AP Gauss Rifle with it. Now I am not sure: Was the C-Arm for the Uller bare, or did it come with weapons when you bought it?

The Omnipod of the Uller / Kit Fox is actually bare.
All Omnipods are bare when you buy the pod from the mechlab's configuration menu.

You do not get the weapons alongside the omnipod, they are sold separately.
The only time you get the weapons with the pods is when you buy the entire mech.

[martian]

Yeah. But I still don't think that PGI will offer F config. side torso. 3069 is too far from the Clan Invasion where we are now.

[Uncle Totty]

IraqiWalker, on 28 November 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

One of the configurations is the (S) configuration, so that's why we are calling the JJ pods (S) pods.

From what I recall, the S-pods tended to have JJs hardwired into them. It wasn't until after 3055 I wanna say that JJs didn't need to be hardwired into some pods.

My problem is going to be trying to figure where exactly that is referenced in the massive ocean of rulebooks, and TROs.



I'll definitely check it out when I'm back there.

I think I know where you misunderstand. JJs are fixed in the Omni-Pod. However, Omni-Pods are only as big as the equipment they hold, and each only hold one equipment. They are NOT full on sections like they are in MWO. The 5 "S" Omni-Pods (one Omni-Pod for one JJ) on the Timber Wolf S Loadout can be swapped out/in at will.

Do you under stand now?

Edited by Nathan K, 29 November 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

martian, on 29 November 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

No. it's from 3050.

I could've sworn it's 3052. Most of the S variants are around 3052. the MUL has it at introduction date 3050, but faction availability as Jihad, and Early Republic, but not invasion.

Nathan K, on 29 November 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

I think I know where you misunderstand. JJs are fixed in the Omni-Pod. However, Omni-Pods are only as big as the equipment they hold, and each only hold one equipment. They are NOT full on sections like they are in MWO. The 5 "S" Omni-Pods (one Omni-Pod for one JJ) on the Timber Wolf S Loadout can be swapped out/in at will.

Do you under stand now?

I think you're misunderstand something here too. Mostly because of the way PGI is forcing us to use these terms.

When I'm saying the S-pod has fixed JJs. I mean the side torso comes with hardwired JJs. The JJ pod will of course have a JJ hardwired to it. It's a JJ pod. Same with an ER-ML pod having an ER-ML hardwired to it.

We're not talking about the individual pieces that you can add to a pod mech. We're talking about how the S-Pods getting fixed JJs makes sense, and is not the cataclysmic nerf everyone is making it out to be.

If someone REALLY wants to run 4xALRM15(60) (the only optimal build that actually got hit by this set up), that's impossible now, but you can still do 2xLRM20+2xLRM10(60). or 2xALRM15+2xALRM10(50) People can still have their jumping T-Wolf with loads of LRMs.

They just can't do silly things like LRM 80 T-Wolf, which is honestly the biggest waste of resources this side of the light horse brigade charge. C-LRM 20s are some of the worst weapons in the game, and crippling a T-Wolf with them is bad on too many levels. I'm just glad that PGI installed a prevention mechanism to that disaster.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 29 November 2014 - 01:07 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

I think you're misunderstand something here too. Mostly because of the way PGI is forcing us to use these terms.

When I'm saying the S-pod has fixed JJs. I mean the side torso comes with hardwired JJs. The JJ pod will of course have a JJ hardwired to it. It's a JJ pod. Same with an ER-ML pod having an ER-ML hardwired to it.

If it really worked like that in MWO, then EVERYTHING in "Omni-Pods" would be fixed and NOTHING can be changed on them.

JJs should work the same way the weapons do in Omni-pods.

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

We're not talking about the individual pieces that you can add to a pod mech. We're talking about how the S-Pods getting fixed JJs makes sense, and is not the cataclysmic nerf everyone is making it out to be.

If someone REALLY wants to run 4xALRM15(60) (the only optimal build that actually got hit by this set up), that's impossible now, but you can still do 2xLRM20+2xLRM10(60). or 2xALRM15+2xALRM10(50) People can still have their jumping T-Wolf with loads of LRMs.

They just can't do silly things like LRM 80 T-Wolf, which is honestly the biggest waste of resources this side of the light horse brigade charge. C-LRM 20s are some of the worst weapons in the game, and crippling a T-Wolf with them is bad on too many levels. I'm just glad that PGI installed a prevention mechanism to that disaster.

So is this why those who just want a RT Energy slot, or a RT Ballistic slot should be stuck with two JJs as well?

Edited by Nathan K, 29 November 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[martian]

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

I could've sworn it's 3052. Most of the S variants are around 3052. the MUL has it at introduction date 3050, but faction availability as Jihad, and Early Republic, but not invasion.

The 3050 date is correct. The faction availability for the Clan Invasion era (and earlier eras) has not been entered yet. Guys are busy with the Republic era and the Dark Age era.

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

I think you're misunderstand something here too. Mostly because of the way PGI is forcing us to use these terms.

When I'm saying the S-pod has fixed JJs. I mean the side torso comes with hardwired JJs. The JJ pod will of course have a JJ hardwired to it. It's a JJ pod. Same with an ER-ML pod having an ER-ML hardwired to it.

We're not talking about the individual pieces that you can add to a pod mech. We're talking about how the S-Pods getting fixed JJs makes sense, and is not the cataclysmic nerf everyone is making it out to be.

If someone REALLY wants to run 4xALRM15(60) (the only optimal build that actually got hit by this set up), that's impossible now, but you can still do 2xLRM20+2xLRM10(60). or 2xALRM15+2xALRM10(50) People can still have their jumping T-Wolf with loads of LRMs.

Some memorable quotes of your posts, from this very thread:

"Idiots are whining ..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The S pods have the JJs hardwired.

You're replacing the the ST pod of the variant you have with that of the S. S pods have hardwired JJs."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Pretty sure you're the one that seems to not understand how this works.

Loadout or variant, they both functionally mean the same thing. These pods come with specific equipment. JJs are almost universally hardwired in pod tech.

It's just that you have your own interpretation that you refuse to budge from. An interpretation that is flawed if I might add.

I'm not trolling, you just refuse to acknowledge the rules in the rule books, and what other people are telling you."
(
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Do you even understand how, or why the S variant was made?

The S is a non-standard configuration, the clan scientists wanted to keep the T-Wolf more competitive with other clan mechs, and so they developed the S pods. Unlike the other clan mechs that had JJs standard (and hardwired) in all pods. The S pods were non-standard pods. They had to build them from scratch, as a custom, and special order for the T-Wolf, and hardwire the JJs into them."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The main reason that Jjs aren't on all T-Wolf pods, is because they (S) are NON-STANDARD pods. The T-Wolf was never meant to have JJs on it. So it's ST pods never had, nor needed JJs in them.

The S pod is a custom order, and modification that is non-standard. That's why it stands out as a special snowflake amongst the other T-Wolf variants.

TL;DR: S pods have hardwired JJs, it's in the rules. Why are we still debating this. "
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The original run of T-Wolves had NO jumpjets. Due to pod technology forcing many equipment pieces (especially JJs) to be hardwired to the pod they are installed in, the S-Pods were developed later (as evidenced by the fact that the S-pods never existed until well after 3052), and since they had JJs, those had to be hardwired to the pods, because it is a POD.

So with basic common sense, S-pods are a thing that exists, and you really need to learn the lore you are talking about, before entering into a discussion about it.

The omni pods used by PGI, are actually extremely close to the lore application of pods. Again, read the actual lore, don't just work off your fantasy version of it."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The S was different because it incorporated a piece of equipment (JJs) not native to the original run of pods for the T-Wolf. That's why they are considered a NON-STANDARD pod config. The S-Pods are a special case of a redesign on base pods for a mech."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the best:
"Seriously, at this point you're literally ignoring the lore, while saying you're citing it. Which shows that you clearly don't understand clan tech, or how pods worked, yet keep saying you do. Go read the books, especially the rule books."

Let me know when you find canon materials supporting your claims ...

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

They just can't do silly things like LRM 80 T-Wolf, which is honestly the biggest waste of resources this side of the light horse brigade charge. C-LRM 20s are some of the worst weapons in the game, and crippling a T-Wolf with them is bad on too many levels. I'm just glad that PGI installed a prevention mechanism to that disaster.

If people are willingly crippling their 'Mechs with such weapons (or any other weapon combination of weapons they wish), why not let them do it? It's their problem, not yours. If anything, you should have easier work with them on the battlefield.




SUGGESTIONS:
1) Do not tell people to doublecheck OmniMech construction rules if you don't know them yourself, as your unfamiliarity with the basic construction rulebook TechManual proved..
2) Do not try to pretend that your talk about mythical non-standard S-Pods with hardwired Jump Jets is based on canon materials, if you can't prove it with a single quote from canon books.
3) Do not say that you are "the one citing TROs, and actual lore facts", if not a single post of yours included citation of a canon source.
4) Do not tell other people to learn lore, if your "knowledge" of lore is based on notoriously inaccurate Sarna.
5) Do not call people with opinions different from yours "whining idiots" or similarly.

And ...
6) Apologize to Nathan K because he has been right in many of his posts while you have been completely and totally wrong.

Edited by martian, 29 November 2014 - 03:10 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

martian, on 29 November 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

The 3050 date is correct. The faction availability for the Clan Invasion era (and earlier eras) has not been entered yet. Guys are busy with the Republic era and the Dark Age era.




Some memorable quotes of your posts, from this very thread:

"Idiots are whining ..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The S pods have the JJs hardwired.

You're replacing the the ST pod of the variant you have with that of the S. S pods have hardwired JJs."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Pretty sure you're the one that seems to not understand how this works.

Loadout or variant, they both functionally mean the same thing. These pods come with specific equipment. JJs are almost universally hardwired in pod tech.

It's just that you have your own interpretation that you refuse to budge from. An interpretation that is flawed if I might add.

I'm not trolling, you just refuse to acknowledge the rules in the rule books, and what other people are telling you."
(
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Do you even understand how, or why the S variant was made?

The S is a non-standard configuration, the clan scientists wanted to keep the T-Wolf more competitive with other clan mechs, and so they developed the S pods. Unlike the other clan mechs that had JJs standard (and hardwired) in all pods. The S pods were non-standard pods. They had to build them from scratch, as a custom, and special order for the T-Wolf, and hardwire the JJs into them."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The main reason that Jjs aren't on all T-Wolf pods, is because they (S) are NON-STANDARD pods. The T-Wolf was never meant to have JJs on it. So it's ST pods never had, nor needed JJs in them.

The S pod is a custom order, and modification that is non-standard. That's why it stands out as a special snowflake amongst the other T-Wolf variants.

TL;DR: S pods have hardwired JJs, it's in the rules. Why are we still debating this. "
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The original run of T-Wolves had NO jumpjets. Due to pod technology forcing many equipment pieces (especially JJs) to be hardwired to the pod they are installed in, the S-Pods were developed later (as evidenced by the fact that the S-pods never existed until well after 3052), and since they had JJs, those had to be hardwired to the pods, because it is a POD.

So with basic common sense, S-pods are a thing that exists, and you really need to learn the lore you are talking about, before entering into a discussion about it.

The omni pods used by PGI, are actually extremely close to the lore application of pods. Again, read the actual lore, don't just work off your fantasy version of it."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The S was different because it incorporated a piece of equipment (JJs) not native to the original run of pods for the T-Wolf. That's why they are considered a NON-STANDARD pod config. The S-Pods are a special case of a redesign on base pods for a mech."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the best:
"Seriously, at this point you're literally ignoring the lore, while saying you're citing it. Which shows that you clearly don't understand clan tech, or how pods worked, yet keep saying you do. Go read the books, especially the rule books."

Let me know when you find canon materials supporting your claims ...


If people are willingly crippling their 'Mechs with such weapons (or any other weapon combination of weapons they wish), why not let them do it? It's their problem, not yours. If anything, you should have easier work with them on the battlefield.




SUGGESTIONS:
1) Do not tell people to doublecheck OmniMech construction rules if you don't know them yourself, as your unfamiliarity with the basic construction rulebook TechManual proved..
2) Do not try to pretend that your talk about mythical non-standard S-Pods with hardwired Jump Jets is based on canon materials, if you can't prove it with a single quote from canon books.
3) Do not say that you are "the one citing TROs, and actual lore facts", if not a single post of yours included citation of a canon source.
4) Do not tell other people to learn lore, if your "knowledge" of lore is based on notoriously inaccurate Sarna.
5) Do not call people with opinions different from yours "whining idiots" or similarly.

And ...
6) Apologize Nathan K because he has been right in many of his posts while you have been completely and totally wrong.

Wait. Why must I apologize?

[IraqiWalker]

martian, on 29 November 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

The 3050 date is correct. The faction availability for the Clan Invasion era (and earlier eras) has not been entered yet. Guys are busy with the Republic era and the Dark Age era.

Thanks of the heads up

martian, on 29 November 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

SUGGESTIONS:
1) Do not tell people to doublecheck OmniMech construction rules if you don't know them yourself, as your unfamiliarity with the basic construction rulebook TechManual proved..
2) Do not try to pretend that your talk about mythical non-standard S-Pods with hardwired Jump Jets is based on canon materials, if you can't prove it with a single quote from canon books.
3) Do not say that you are "the one citing TROs, and actual lore facts", if not a single post of yours included citation of a canon source.
4) Do not tell other people to learn lore, if your "knowledge" of lore is based on notoriously inaccurate Sarna.
5) Do not call people with opinions different from yours "whining idiots" or similarly.

And ...
6) Apologize Nathan K because he has been right in many of his posts while you have been completely and totally wrong.

1- Where's the logical incosistency in all the quotes you cited? Nathan and I were talking about how a JJ pod is not the same as side torso section pod. So yes, a JJ pod would come hardwired with a JJ in it, since that pod literally holds nothing but a JJ. While a Side Torso pod can come with multiple pod locations, but if it had JJs in it, they would be hardwired.

2- There is a massive difference between different opinions, and whining. Whining is what has been going on for a long time in this and a few other threads, about how this nerf is the end of the timberwolf and how it made it into a joke mech. That is whining.

Also, just because someone has the right to an opinion doesn't mean they're not wrong to have that opinion. Again, in the case of people saying the T-Wolf has become as bad as the summoner, and other dribble like that.

3- If I choose to apologize to someone, I will do it of my own volition, not at someone's request.

4- So far, you haven't presented a single piece of argument to actually counter any points I've made. The only point that counts as a counter argument was not even presented by you.

I think it was by Nathan when he mentioned that the base chassis equipment (Prime) is the only equipment that has to be hardwired. That's the most reasonable one so far.

5- The simple fact that I don't have my sources in front of me right now to pick out the exact pages shouldn't be a hindrance.

You seem to have access to the same sources, so present /something/, anything that counters my argument. Clearly I can't go back home right now, while you have them. Go through them, instead of just trying to dictate how conversations "should" be going.

Nathan K, on 29 November 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Wait. Why must I apologize?

Apologize TO Nathan K. You're fine dude. That was meant for me.

Nathan K, on 29 November 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

If it really worked like that, EVERYTHING in MWO "Omni-Pods" would be fixed and NOTHING can be changed on them.

JJs should work the same way the weapons do in Omni-pods.

Weapons are not the same as equipment. That's at least the main reason that I can see for why weapons don't get bound like JJs do.

Nathan K, on 29 November 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

So is this why those who just want a RT Energy slot, or a RT Ballistic slot should be stuck with two JJs as well?

Can be a tough choice, but the clan mechs are all built around either having more dakka for less flexibility, or less dakka with more flexibility. If you really wanted that /B/ ST, then the 2 JJs should have little to no impact, if you balance out your loadout, or become a hindrance, if you want to walk around chock-full of guns.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 29 November 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[martian]

Nathan K, on 29 November 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Wait. Why must I apologize?

I am sorry. I forgot to write "to", as "Apologize to Nathan K". My mistake. Corrected.

[Uncle Totty]

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Thanks of the heads up



1- Where's the logical incosistency in all the quotes you cited? Nathan and I were talking about how a JJ pod is not the same as side torso section pod. So yes, a JJ pod would come hardwired with a JJ in it, since that pod literally holds nothing but a JJ. While a Side Torso pod can come with multiple pod locations, but if it had JJs in it, they would be hardwired.

2- There is a massive difference between different opinions, and whining. Whining is what has been going on for a long time in this and a few other threads, about how this nerf is the end of the timberwolf and how it made it into a joke mech. That is whining.

Also, just because someone has the right to an opinion doesn't mean they're not wrong to have that opinion. Again, in the case of people saying the T-Wolf has become as bad as the summoner, and other dribble like that.

3- If I choose to apologize to someone, I will do it of my own volition, not at someone's request.

4- So far, you haven't presented a single piece of argument to actually counter any points I've made. The only point that counts as a counter argument was not even presented by you.

I think it was by Nathan when he mentioned that the base chassis equipment (Prime) is the only equipment that has to be hardwired. That's the most reasonable one so far.

5- The simple fact that I don't have my sources in front of me right now to pick out the exact pages shouldn't be a hindrance.

You seem to have access to the same sources, so present /something/, anything that counters my argument. Clearly I can't go back home right now, while you have them. Go through them, instead of just trying to dictate how conversations "should" be going.


Apologize TO Nathan K. You're fine dude. That was meant for me.



Weapons are not the same as equipment. That's at least the main reason that I can see for why weapons don't get bound like JJs do.


Can be a tough choice, but the clan mechs are all built around either having more dakka for less flexibility, or less dakka with more flexibility. If all you wanted was that /B/ ST, then the 2 JJs should have little to no impact, if you balance out your loadout, or become a hindrance, if you want to walk around chock-full of guns.

Heat Sinks, Cl-AP (Clan Active Probe), ECM, Targeting Computer, and AMS. They can all be swapped in/out like weapons, yet none of them are.

[IraqiWalker]

Nathan K, on 29 November 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

Heat Sinks, Cl-AP (Clan Active Probe), ECM, Targeting Computer, and AMS. They can all be swapped in/out like weapons, yet none of them are.

You're right. I can see how some of them (like HS, CAP, and TC) don't ever need to be hardwired, since they are not hardpoint specific(that could be the rationalization used). However, AMS, ECM, and JJs in all fairness should get hardwired, if we are to be consistent with the way PGI has been treating these pods. If JJs get hardwired, (and so far I think only the KFX ones are not, and that mech needs them to not be hardwired for it to perform and survive) then these other pieces should be as well.

This would also allow pods with similar hardpoints (minus the equipment specific ones) to be added to the game, to add more variety.

Do you want ECM on your mech, then you gotta take it with that pod, hardwired into it, and with the hardpoints. However, we can now add pods with the same hardpoints, but no ECM (would generally be regarded as inferior pods with the current system), and use those instead, if you want just the weapons, without the equipment.

However, this system needs to wait a while before implementation, since we have mechs that need to be on the current system to function. Once PGI can throw enough energy to putting out more pods, this system would be ideal. (I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there is AT LEAST one other T-Wolf config (D, I believe) that has 4 missiles in the STs, other than the S) Until then, we'll work with what we have.

Plus, in all honesty, this move did balance out the S config a bit. (JJ capacity made no sense to me, suddenly I can mout JJs in my legs because my ST changed?)

What would have been a better solution is making the JJs hardpoint specific, so if you mount an S-ST you have to put the JJs only in that ST. Mount an S-CT, one JJ goes in there. That would have made a LOT more sense.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 29 November 2014 - 03:40 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

Plus, in all honesty, this move did balance out the S config a bit. (JJ capacity made no sense to me, suddenly I can mout JJs in my legs because my ST changed?)

What would have been a better solution is making the JJs hardpoint specific, so if you mount an S-ST you have to put the JJs only in that ST. Mount an S-CT, one JJ goes in there. That would have made a LOT more sense.

For once we agree on something.

(And yes, the JJs on the MWO Kit Fox's "S-Pods" are fixed as well.)

Edited by Nathan K, 29 November 2014 - 08:02 PM.

[martian]

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

1- Where's the logical incosistency in all the quotes you cited? Nathan and I were talking about how a JJ pod is not the same as side torso section pod. So yes, a JJ pod would come hardwired with a JJ in it, since that pod literally holds nothing but a JJ. While a Side Torso pod can come with multiple pod locations, but if it had JJs in it, they would be hardwired.

Here, for example:
"The omni pods used by PGI, are actually extremely close to the lore application of pods. Again, read the actual lore, don't just work off your fantasy version of it."

I must assure you that in BattleTech and its lore you really do not transplant entire arms and torsos under normal circumstances.
If you actually read BattleTech materials, you should have know it.

Or here:
"The S pods were non-standard pods. They had to build them from scratch, as a custom, and special order for the T-Wolf, and hardwire the JJs into them."

How would you define standard and non-standard pods? BattleTech rulebooks know no such difference. OmniMechs are inherently flexible and if you have free slots and weight, you can put jump jet(s) as you see fit (in allowed locations, of course). That's what TechManual says on page 44 and that's what Strategic Operations says on page 189.

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

2- There is a massive difference between different opinions, and whining. Whining is what has been going on for a long time in this and a few other threads, about how this nerf is the end of the timberwolf and how it made it into a joke mech. That is whining.

Also, just because someone has the right to an opinion doesn't mean they're not wrong to have that opinion. Again, in the case of people saying the T-Wolf has become as bad as the summoner, and other dribble like that.

In other words, if you disagree with somebody, then he is a "whining idiot"?

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

3- If I choose to apologize to someone, I will do it of my own volition, not at someone's request.

I offered you hegira.

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

4- So far, you haven't presented a single piece of argument to actually counter any points I've made. The only point that counts as a counter argument was not even presented by you.

I think it was by Nathan when he mentioned that the base chassis equipment (Prime) is the only equipment that has to be hardwired. That's the most reasonable one so far.

I believe it was Discarious, but since you didn't bother to quote the exact post, I am not sure If we are talking about the same post ...

And now to the point:
Thank you again for proving publicly again that you have no knowledge of actual BattleTech:

Prime is not the base chassis. It's just one of many possible configurations and the fact that it is designed as "Prime" means nothing for purposes of this debate. It's just a name. The fact you consider this claim to be correct and reasonable is very very telling.

The base chassis is described on page 44 of TechManual and I already mentioned it in my post # 213.

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

5- The simple fact that I don't have my sources in front of me right now to pick out the exact pages shouldn't be a hindrance.

You seem to have access to the same sources, so present /something/, anything that counters my argument. Clearly I can't go back home right now, while you have them. Go through them, instead of just trying to dictate how conversations "should" be going.

I already described what books say that is the base configuration. It is in my post # 213. Re-read it.
Chassis, engine, gyro, cockpit, etc. and things explicitly marked as Fixed equipment can't be changed. Everything else can be - of course you must follow other construction rules such as that you can't put JJ in head or so. Both basic rulebooks - TechManual (as basic construction handbook) and Strategic Operations (advanced rulebook dealing with 'Mech repairs, customizations, etc. among other things) - say it.

[IraqiWalker]

martian, on 29 November 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Here, for example:
"The omni pods used by PGI, are actually extremely close to the lore application of pods. Again, read the actual lore, don't just work off your fantasy version of it."

I must assure you that in BattleTech and its lore you really do not transplant entire arms and torsos under normal circumstances.
If you actually read BattleTech materials, you should have know it.

We know that part. Plus, I said that it was close, I didn't say it was identical. Mostly because there needed to be some balance.

martian, on 29 November 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Or here:
"The S pods were non-standard pods. They had to build them from scratch, as a custom, and special order for the T-Wolf, and hardwire the JJs into them."

How would you define standard and non-standard pods? BattleTech rulebooks know no such difference. OmniMechs are inherently flexible and if you have free slots and weight, you can put jump jet(s) as you see fit (in allowed locations, of course). That's what TechManual says on page 44 and that's what Strategic Operations says on page 189.

By non-standard, I was trying to explain that the original pods, and the original run of that mech, and it's configs, did not have those set ups in them. Later configs added them, and as such, they are not the standard set up you'd expect from the mech.

For example, the S config with it's JJs was not a regular config that was available with the mech's original batch of configs.

I used the term non-standard, to try and convey an idea.

martian, on 29 November 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

In other words, if you disagree with somebody, then he is a "whining idiot"?

No, I've had no problem debating with people, and arguing with them. My problem is with the ones that just actively whine, and offer nothing other than cries. Again, I gave very specific and good examples of what "whining" basically is, in my previoius post.

martian, on 29 November 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

I believe it was Discarious, but since you didn't bother to quote the exact post, I am not sure If we are talking about the same post ...

And now to the point:
Thank you again for proving publicly again that you have no knowledge of actual BattleTech:

Prime is not the base chassis. It's just one of many possible configurations and the fact that it is designed as "Prime" means nothing for purposes of this debate. It's just a name. The fact you consider this claim to be correct and reasonable is very very telling.

(It was Discarius' post)

Excuse me, but I did say it was the closest to reason, (since we're using the Prime as the base chassis in this game, and his deduction that PGI treats each config as it's own base chassis seems to be spot on so far), I specifically said that "That's the most reasonable one so far.". I didn't say the most lore-accurate, or the most rule-book compliant. I said that it was the most "reasonable" point raised.

Please read people's posts carefully before jumping the gun.

martian, on 29 November 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

I already described what books say that is the base configuration. It is in my post # 213. Re-read it.
Chassis, engine, gyro, cockpit, etc. and things explicitly marked as Fixed equipment can't be changed. Everything else can be - of course you must follow other construction rules such as that you can't put JJ in head or so. Both basic rulebooks - TechManual (as basic construction handbook) and Strategic Operations (advanced rulebook dealing with 'Mech repairs, customizations, etc. among other things) - say it.

Thank you for that clarification.

[Darwins Dog]

LOL

The first three posts were priceless!

OP: Timberwolf is useless now

Reply: They're still the best heavy in the game

OP: True, but it sucks now

Good times.

[martian]

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

We know that part.

No, not "we", but "you" know it now when I repeatedly explained you so.

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

Plus, I said that it was close, I didn't say it was identical. Mostly because there needed to be some balance.

Except that you said that ""The omni pods used by PGI, are actually extremely close to the lore application of pods", while in reality they have almost nothing to do with actual BattleTech and its lore. In BattleTech you really don't swap arms or torsos or legs or heads. Lore and rules describe OmniMech customizations quite differently. Therefore, what you said is not true.

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

By non-standard, I was trying to explain that the original pods, and the original run of that mech, and it's configs, did not have those set ups in them. Later configs added them, and as such, they are not the standard set up you'd expect from the mech.

For example, the S config with it's JJs was not a regular config that was available with the mech's original batch of configs.

I used the term non-standard, to try and convey an idea.

You still don't get it. For OmniMechs there are no standard and non-standard configurations.

If it's doable in-universe and valid according the TechManual, then the configuration is "standard". Technicians and MechWarriors create new configurations every few years and they see nothing special on it. Configurations Prime, A, B, C, D, etc, etc. are simply the most common ones.

Maybe you will understand it on the example on your own example:
"No, they were SUPPOSED to be hardwired.
Rules-wise, the S pods were always supposed to have their JJs hardwired."

If we are to continue in discussion, do you understand that in BattleTech the only "hardwired" things on OmniMech are its base chassis and things specifically marked as Fixed equipment (and Jump Jets are not that)? That everything else is easily movable? That there are no special "S pods" in BattleTech and that swapping poddded Jump Jet or two on Madcat is for technicians as easy as it's swapping podded laser or two or podded missile rack or two?

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

No, I've had no problem debating with people, and arguing with them. My problem is with the ones that just actively whine, and offer nothing other than cries. Again, I gave very specific and good examples of what "whining" basically is, in my previoius post.

Yes, I read that. "Whining idiot" is a person you disagree with.

Then you tell those people that "Amen, the S-STs were FIXED, not NERFED.", although - as I previously demonstrated on canon BattleTech examples - the opposite is true and they were really nerfed and no S-side torsos exist in BattleTech and that supposed "fix" goes against the BattleTech lore (in the sense that the only things that should be fixed are items specifically labeled as such). Jump Jets are not Fixed Equipment therefore they should stay easily swappable.

"Idiots are whining because they can't use the 4xALRM15s build on the S anymore. Honestly, if they were doing that to begin with, they were doing it wrong."

And they were wrong because you say so. Great. And then you start your talk abou "special S -pods" ...

IraqiWalker, on 29 November 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

(It was Discarius' post)

Excuse me, but I did say it was the closest to reason, (since we're using the Prime as the base chassis in this game, and his deduction that PGI treats each config as it's own base chassis seems to be spot on so far), I specifically said that "That's the most reasonable one so far.". I didn't say the most lore-accurate, or the most rule-book compliant. I said that it was the most "reasonable" point raised.

Except, of course, that there is nothing "reasonable" on it as I clearly demonstrated on canon BattleTech rules and that it goes against the spirit of BattleTech rules. Plus, obviously many MWO players hate this change, as the very existence of this thread shows.


Well, I believe I have expained you how BattleTech rules work and where you can find them, what is the base chassis of OmniMech, why there are no "special" "snowflake" "non-standard S pods" and that the nerf fixing Jump Jets in side torso went against the BattleTech spirit and lore and against many people's wishes.

Is still something left what you do not understand?

[PhoenixNMGLB]

While this has been an interesting and insightful argument the problem it game balance for a tabletop game and a computer game are totally different.

Correct me if I am wrong but don't TT units have a points value that determines what you can bring for a balanced game? We don't have that here and we never will.

If clan mechs were as they are in lore and table top a clan pilot, facing an inner sphere pilot of equal skill and weight class would win. Every. Single. Time.

So now that 10 v 12 is well out of the window clan mechs have to be balanced to their IS counterparts. Different enough to be worth using but not OP.

I still think the timber wolf is the best heavy in the game.

[martian]

If you don't mind, I'll split my answer in some smaller parts:

PhoenixNMGLB, on 30 November 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

While this has been an interesting and insightful argument the problem it game balance for a tabletop game and a computer game are totally different.
...
If clan mechs were as they are in lore and table top a clan pilot, facing an inner sphere pilot of equal skill and weight class would win. Every. Single. Time.

No.

It doesn't happen in tabletop and it doesn't happen here. In tabletop you can either win through better tactics and luck even if both pilots are of the same skill and sitting in 'Mechs of the same weight class, or you can use your "surplus" BV to field more 'Mechs, improve your pilots, or field heavier 'Mechs. In MWO the situation is different - in all 'Mechs on both sides are different individuals with their individual skill sets.

Take light 'Mechs in MWO, for example. If you have some average configuration of Puma or Uller and average Jenner or Firestarter, then I'll put my money on the Jenner.

Doesn't happen to you that you defeat enemy Clan OmniMech when sitting in your IS BattleMech?

PhoenixNMGLB, on 30 November 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

Correct me if I am wrong but don't TT units have a points value that determines what you can bring for a balanced game? We don't have that here and we never will.
...
So now that 10 v 12 is well out of the window clan mechs have to be balanced to their IS counterparts. Different enough to be worth using but not OP.

1) One part of the MWO challenge is to best your opponent. It doesn't have to be in raw firepower. It can be in mobility or you can outsmart him. It can be better in tactics, whatever ...
2) Usually it doesn't happen in MWO that one side is composed of top Clan 'Mechs while the other side fields IS 'Mechs (and inferior ones). In my experience usually both sides have roughly similar number of Clan 'Mechs, here and there ...
3) Instead of nerfing Clan 'Mechs, wouldn't be better to positively improve Inner Sphere 'Mechs? And that's exactly what we see happening: Positive quirks that have helped Dragons and Wolverines so much that their Autocannons fire almost as fast as machine guns. Wub-Wolverine with Pulse lasers, etc.
4) If you don't mind, I would post one screencap from game I played about two days ago:

The Matchmaker was not in our favour, as our opponents fielded five Clan 'Mechs (a pair of Daishis, a pair of Madcats and Ryoken), while we had just one Clan 'Mech. This wasn't looking good for us.

Instead of losing, we won. I guess that their team was a bit disappointed with the results of the game. After all, they had those vaunted "Clan OmniMechs"! They should have won!

But it didn't happen.

For my person, I enjoyed the game ...

PhoenixNMGLB, on 30 November 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

I still think the timber wolf is the best heavy in the game.

Sure it is good - but it's no panacea, no ultimate 'Mech that you put on tabletop map or in MWO and your opponent automatically dies.

Instead of nerfing it with the chain and ball, wouldn't be better to ensure that other 'Mechs won't suck?

Edited by martian, 30 November 2014 - 02:47 AM.

[Uncle Totty]

martian, on 30 November 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

No, not "we", but "you" know it now when I repeatedly explained you so.


Except that you said that ""The omni pods used by PGI, are actually extremely close to the lore application of pods", while in reality they have almost nothing to do with actual BattleTech and its lore. In BattleTech you really don't swap arms or torsos or legs or heads. Lore and rules describe OmniMech customizations quite differently. Therefore, what you said is not true.


You still don't get it. For OmniMechs there are no standard and non-standard configurations.

If it's doable in-universe and valid according the TechManual, then the configuration is "standard". Technicians and MechWarriors create new configurations every few years and they see nothing special on it. Configurations Prime, A, B, C, D, etc, etc. are simply the most common ones.

Maybe you will understand it on the example on your own example:
"No, they were SUPPOSED to be hardwired.
Rules-wise, the S pods were always supposed to have their JJs hardwired."

If we are to continue in discussion, do you understand that in BattleTech the only "hardwired" things on OmniMech are its base chassis and things specifically marked as Fixed equipment (and Jump Jets are not that)? That everything else is easily movable? That there are no special "S pods" in BattleTech and that swapping poddded Jump Jet or two on Madcat is for technicians as easy as it's swapping podded laser or two or podded missile rack or two?


Yes, I read that. "Whining idiot" is a person you disagree with.

Then you tell those people that "Amen, the S-STs were FIXED, not NERFED.", although - as I previously demonstrated on canon BattleTech examples - the opposite is true and they were really nerfed and no S-side torsos exist in BattleTech and that supposed "fix" goes against the BattleTech lore (in the sense that the only things that should be fixed are items specifically labeled as such). Jump Jets are not Fixed Equipment therefore they should stay easily swappable.

"Idiots are whining because they can't use the 4xALRM15s build on the S anymore. Honestly, if they were doing that to begin with, they were doing it wrong."

And they were wrong because you say so. Great. And then you start your talk abou "special S -pods" ...


Except, of course, that there is nothing "reasonable" on it as I clearly demonstrated on canon BattleTech rules and that it goes against the spirit of BattleTech rules. Plus, obviously many MWO players hate this change, as the very existence of this thread shows.


Well, I believe I have expained you how BattleTech rules work and where you can find them, what is the base chassis of OmniMech, why there are no "special" "snowflake" "non-standard S pods" and that the nerf fixing Jump Jets in side torso went against the BattleTech spirit and lore and against many people's wishes.

Is still something left what you do not understand?

At this point you are pretty much just repeating the same things we both have told him MANY times before.

[martian]

Nathan K, on 30 November 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

At this point you are pretty much just repeating the same things we both have told him MANY times before.

Aff!

But this time he will finally understand. Sure thing!