Jump to content

Put The "war" Back In Mech Warrior


93 replies to this topic

#21 Senor Cataclysmo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 373 posts

Posted 24 November 2014 - 04:59 AM

I really like the idea of capturing a convoy, where the loss condition is destroying the convoy.

Ideally I'd like to see convoy vehicles that are big enough for mechs to take partial cover behind, forcing the capturing team to manoeuvre and use positioning to avoid risking harming the vehicles rather than just being able to snipe the convoy's protectors from ages away.

There should also be some kind of mission goal that encourages at least some of the defenders to stay with the convoy. If both teams want to avoid harming it, the obvious thing would be to completely ignore it, allow it to cross the map and have a big brawl at a safe distance, effectively rendering it like a normal game. The defending team actually need to be escorting the convoy.

Perhaps there could be a C-bill reward for staying within a certain distance of the vehicles. Or the vehicles won't move unless a certain number of friendly mechs are within a certain distance of them.


OR, what about this?

The convoy in total represents fixed bonuses. Perhaps each vehicle has a total C-bill value it is worth to the team for possessing or something, and each team has a 'pot' where this money goes. All of this money starts in the defending team's pot.

The convoy is on a pre determined route, but has to stop at certain capture points to refuel. If an enemy lance is able to stand in the cap points while the convoy are there, a C-bill counter starts ticking, and the value of each vehicle is siphoned slowly into the attacking teams pot (representing them robbing the convoy while it refuels).

This encourages team play, because the convoy cannot be robbed unless a complete lance is in the cap point, and the other lances have to defend them while it happens or the opposing team can easily drive them away from the cap.

At the end of the match each team's pot is divided up among that team's players.


Here's another idea:

The convoy *starts* on a fixed route, but there are two ways for it to leave the map. One route that belongs to the defender and one which belongs to the attacker. The enemy team has to cap the convoy while it refuels as before, but instead of stealing value from it, a successful cap mean's the convoy's route is changed and when it leaves the cap point it will start following the attacker's route. I imagine there being several of these cap points on each route, giving each team ample opportunities to wrest control of the convoy from each other. Perhaps this mode could represent the kidnap of an important person rather than a convoy. Maybe instead of stopping at cap points, a certain number of mechs have to be within a certain distance of the vehicles for a certain amount of time to make the convoy change route.

#22 RockmachinE

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,040 posts

Posted 24 November 2014 - 06:08 AM

View PostJack Corban, on 24 November 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

They need to increase the size drastically


I only read this. What you, and a lot of other people it seems fail to realize is the technical limitations of this game and this particular engine as well as the limited proficiency of the developers of this game.

This engine is not ideal for a MW game and its become extremely evident over the years that PGI are just not that good and any sort of coding.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 24 November 2014 - 06:10 AM.


#23 Jack Corban

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 560 posts
  • LocationPort Arthur

Posted 24 November 2014 - 06:13 AM

View PostLouis Brofist, on 24 November 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:


I only read this. What you, and a lot of other people it seems fail to realize is the technical limitations of this game and this particular engine as well as the limited proficiency of the developers of this game.

This engine is not ideal for a MW game and its become extremely evident over the years that PGI are just not that good and any sort of coding.


Well so what do you expect me and other Mechwarrior Fans to do then ? Suck it up and level with the fact that this game will never advance beyound a Arena Shooter ? Sorry but i'm not ready to give up on this game yet. This needs to be done and if they cannot make it happen then they should have never started this in the first place.

#24 Karl Streiger

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 20,369 posts
  • LocationBlack Dot in a Sea of Blue

Posted 24 November 2014 - 06:29 AM

View PostLouis Brofist, on 24 November 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

I only read this. What you, and a lot of other people it seems fail to realize is the technical limitations of this game and this particular engine as well as the limited proficiency of the developers of this game.

Oh now I'm curious - the MWLL maps had the size we want to have in a MWO game - at least the size of Alpine with 4 x 4 km.

They didn't had that much obstacles objects or textures - but they still looked "smoother" some how.

Now you can shrink Alpine to 3x3 km because that is where the action takes part
you don't have much movement at the C,D,L,M and 3,4,12,13 Lines - reason is the terrain and how the terrain is placed.
I would think a over all reduced height - maybe only a quarter of the current height the battle and movement become more different.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 24 November 2014 - 06:36 AM.


#25 Killstorm999999

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 196 posts

Posted 24 November 2014 - 06:46 AM

View PostLouis Brofist, on 24 November 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

This engine is not ideal for a MW game


I am actually more interested in this. Other then the problems with implementing zoom and rear view mirrors, what other things is the engine unable to do that it should be able to?

#26 Bhael Fire

    Banned - Cheating

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 4,002 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationThe Outback wastes of planet Outreach.

Posted 24 November 2014 - 06:56 AM

PGI has stated that they are trying to make maps more objective oriented. The new asymmetrical Invasion mode that is coming with CW should be a big step in the right direction, and they are already working on new modes for CW that carry this even further in the right direction.

I'm fairly confident that once CW is in place, we will start seeing even more dynamic maps and game modes.

#27 Johnny Z

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 9,942 posts
  • LocationDueling on Solaris

Posted 24 November 2014 - 07:04 AM

Yep I get what the OP is saying and who can argue. Taking these maps to the next level. I think they are already doing with this new map VB and the upcoming maps. For sure a huge map to explore and use some more thoughtfull tactics would be awsome and who knows maybe the new year. This game was starved of maps for a long time and finally its getting a few new ones and they are steadily upping their maps.

#28 LordKnightFandragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,239 posts

Posted 24 November 2014 - 12:25 PM

AMEN OP.

We need huge maps, 30minute matches, Dropship mode, increased rewards.....make this game EPIC!!!!!!!!

Put bases around to capture, repair bays to fall back to.....hecks yeah.

#29 Almond Brown

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 5,851 posts

Posted 24 November 2014 - 12:30 PM

First encounter amongst the fast Lights, after 12-15 minutes of Nascar Left turns, would decide every Match. By the time the fatties get to where it happened, the Match timer will be on its last breath with not enough time left to actually kill anyone else.

Yahhh! BIGGER Maps indeed. ;)

Edited by Almond Brown, 24 November 2014 - 12:30 PM.


#30 Aresye

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Heavy Lifter
  • Heavy Lifter
  • 3,462 posts

Posted 24 November 2014 - 12:47 PM

The problem with gigantic maps is the fact there's no respawn. Sure, it adds to the overall immersion, but let's not kid ourselves. Nobody, and I mean absolutely NOBODY, is going to enjoy spending 10min of moving, scouting, and getting into a good position, only to get cored in 2 shots when they first make contact.

This means game balance will once again have to be adjusted to provide a better play experience for larger maps and (most likely) longer match times.

#31 Ten Ton

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 69 posts

Posted 24 November 2014 - 12:54 PM

A warrior goes to battle, fights his foe, helps his teammates, achieves victory with bravery and cunning and lives.

Cannon fodder goes to battle hoping to do lots of damage before he gets knocked out

#32 Sir Wulfrick

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 872 posts
  • LocationIn a warship, over your planet :-)

Posted 24 November 2014 - 01:03 PM

View PostAresye, on 24 November 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

The problem with gigantic maps is the fact there's no respawn. Sure, it adds to the overall immersion, but let's not kid ourselves. Nobody, and I mean absolutely NOBODY, is going to enjoy spending 10min of moving, scouting, and getting into a good position, only to get cored in 2 shots when they first make contact.

This means game balance will once again have to be adjusted to provide a better play experience for larger maps and (most likely) longer match times.


The scenario would indeed be immensely frustrating and, as things are now, is probably an accurate depiction. Balance would indeed have to alter, and probably significantly, but with current match times probably averaging around the 4 minute mark, I don't see that notional rebalance as a bad thing at all.

#33 Angel of Annihilation

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Infernal
  • The Infernal
  • 8,872 posts

Posted 24 November 2014 - 01:11 PM

View PostJack Corban, on 24 November 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

What this game needs is actual maps that stop beeing Arena maps.

They need to increase the size drastically to make this game for once use actual tactics and movement.

What good is a scout Mech if you only have to walk 200m to have scouted the entire enemy team allready. "Rivercity, Forrest Colony" i'm looking at you at the moment.

"Alpine and Terra Therma" were moves in the right direction but to be honest they are too small still and are too focused on the middle of the map.
Maps 2-3 Times the Size of "Alpine" would be maps i would call worthy of a mechwarrior experience. Not only would it increase the posibilities of movement it would also increase time to kill because most teams would have to fan out to actually be able to cover given ground effectively.

Asymetric game modes would be very nice too for instance one team attacks one team defends. For this to be interesting there should be multiple goals at the same time though. Simply having one team storm onto one capturepoint and the other team defending that one capturepoint results in nothing but a big brainless brawl, like every match i've been playing ever since beta first started.

This game needs depth to battles and while i do like the idea of Community Warfare around the corner which tries to achieve context to battles the actual battles still feel brainless and half-arsed.

What i want when i play a match of MWO is i want to take my lance onto a big map i want to enter a valley without knowing theres gonna be a team sitting behind the next turn because the map ends after that and its the last place the enemy is able to hide. Looking at you "Canyon Network". I want to be actually able to ambush a lance or even a company using terrain to my advantage. The old Mechwarrior games had plenty of good scenarios and map layouts that made this type of gameplay possible. MWO as of now has not.

Don't get me wrong MWO's maps are nicely done and really nice to look at. But the question we have to ask ourselfes is do we really want to keep playing a MOBA (Multiplayer Online Battle Arena) or do we want to start playing something that resembles warfare in the Battletech Universe. I know why we don't get Solaris Arena Mode. Its because we allready have it and noone dares to say it out loud. There i did it.

What i really think this game needs to become worthy of its name is these features i'm trying to portait to you now.

1. Bigger maps! 2-3 times the size of Alpine as a standart mapsize. Maps don't need to be clutterd with objects every 5 meters to be good maps. If Itemcount is of any concern during map production.

2. Asymetric Gamemodes as

2.1 "Secure Bridgehead" One team lands using Dropships or a Dropship (preferably Union Class or similar) @ a random location on the map. The other team starts in lances scatterd across the map @ random locations.

Team one (landing party) has to kill all opposition and secure the Landingsite for the ongoing Invasion. Team two (local garrison) has to take out the Dropship and destroy 1/2 of the landing party.The local garrison has a weight advantage as the Invading Party send a reconnicance expedition first to scout the actual landingsite. (Though process behind that is that a Union Class Dropship is far from defenceless and the weight advantage should make up for that factor, secondly the Dropship is a key component to making this mode asymetrical as it is a fearsome foe and if ignored to long will become very dangerous)

2.2 "Attack on key asset" This can be anything from an HPG to a local Garrison maybe even a Palace or a Starport. The Invasion is underway and waring factions begin to engage in landlocked combat around Key Locations. The attacker has the advantage of tonnage over the defender but the defender has stationary defences and terrain advantages (Minefields, Entrenched infantry, Defensive structures like walls with guarded gates etc.) The Attacking team has to secure between 2-3 Sub targets might that be a munitions depot or a mechbay for later repair & rearming (context is allways nice) or some other form of valuable target that gives context to why the factions are fighting over this specific piece of land.

2.3 "Convoy" Team one is guarding a convoy through contestet territory. (Politicians, Royal family, mobile M.A.S.H. unit, you name it) The convoy needs to reach a certain exit location or team one needs to eliminate all hostiles in the area for a win. The Convoy takes a random predefined path across the map. Team 2 is scattered across the map @ random locations in groups of two. They got intel somthing is comming their way but they needed to fan out thin to be able to make sure they do not miss it. Team two's objective eliminate all hostiles in the area or liberate the convoy from its defenders.


These are Gamemodes that resemble Warfare in the Battletech Universe and i'm sure if you think about this for a while you will come up with even better examples.

Fact is MWO as is at the moment is stale and i think that this will be the downfall of it rather sooner then later. And the fact that PGI needs to make up tournaments for "free stuff" shows that playercounts have been dropping. Now with the addition of CW on the Horizon these or similar Gamemodes could be implemented to make battles on planets or over planets last longer be more engaging and give the game a whole lot more depth to it.

And even if you use modes like these uncoupled from CW you can make both teams switch sides after the first round. The team that does best overall after 2 rounds wins.

What i'm trying to achieve with modes like these is to stretch out battles rather then having them all center around one location on the same spot every time you play a certain map.

The key to achieving that is random placement. It forces the player and subsequential the team as a whole to adapt to a new situation each game rather then running "attack pattern Bravo" - (circle caldera counterclockwise till everyone is dead)

3. Bring back the classic Radar mechanic so players can lure enemies using active radar or try to infiltrate enemy territory using passive radar. It would also benefit the BAP and ECM mechanics as they behave completly different in these enviroments. ECM decreases the detectionrange of enemy Radar whilst not giving away its own location at the same time. Where as BAP increases Radar ranges and makes passiv Radar users detectable earlier and also detects Powered down mechs.

Discuss!

Finding any typos or grammatical errors? Keep em.

Cheers,

Jack Corban



Yep, this is much similar to the game I was wanting. Huge maps, missions, scenarios, asymmetrical forces with different objectives such as 4 mechs defending a convoy against 8 enemy mechs, etc, etc, etc.

#34 El Bandito

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 26,736 posts
  • LocationStill doing ungodly amount of damage, but with more accuracy.

Posted 25 November 2014 - 01:57 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 24 November 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

But for these to be any good they have to have objectives matter. Not just Epeen for winning or killing the most.
FOR INSTANCE:
Raid/Convoy
Not only do we get our normal winnings for the match, but the raid has a "prize" worth "X C-bills" Which is divided according to player end score for the match. To the Alpha Player, the biggest cut and less to each winning player after him/her. Motivation to actually try to be the best.



Hence I said the amount of loot raided/protected should be factored in the reward. Make the loot reward better than the kill reward and all is set.

#35 Saobh

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 197 posts

Posted 25 November 2014 - 02:42 AM

Problem is this community in fact made of 2 very distinct player base :
- The core one which has been here since the start and are die hard Mechwarrior geeks. Who are looking for the depth that the boardgame gave but in 3D with massive visuals and yes the intense fights but not in a "Leroy Jenkins" way but rather

- The COD type free to play players who in the end are used to games where everything happens quite quickly and don't really need to adapt because the challenging part of it is only an illusion with all the health regen / quick respawn and ammo leaking out of every orifice...


So one part wants a game with depth and strategy the second one wants a quick 5 minute intense fight and then jump into the next one. This should mean that as a community as a whole this game is doomed as it'll never be able to catter to both even tho it needs to to be financially viable.

Not necessarly as in my point of view the best thing which could happen is have "Community warfare" be the part where in depth tactical maps with asymmetrical warfare in long matches are had. And keep the 15 minute "standard" matches the place where people can get their quick and intense combat fix.
That way the COD type player can go have a taste of more in depth battle where patience and survivability are rewarded. And more tactical players can go play a quick 15 minute match if they don't have an hour for the CW / to test out their builds or just want to play a bit more laid back.

I know I started this post by seemingly bashing the COD players but the thing is I know many of them will like a more in depth gameplay once they get a taste of it (if its done right) because by definition in a COD type game the intensity needs to go up with time so that you may get the same fix that is just how the human mind works. So variability and depth in the end lets people achieve a more pleasurable pass time while still letting them enjoy those intense quick matches.


And this is possible as I've seen it happen between the BF2 community and the "Project reality" mod for it. Even after all these years the game has come out there is still a strong player base of thousands of players playing on pretty huge maps (would take you 20-30 minutes to walk from one side to the other) for long matches (about 2 hour rounds) where you die quite easily (either from the 1st shot or from the bleed of it) and where tactics are being played out by squads of random people because you learn by failure (and watching how good players in squads survive : working in fire teams, covering flanks & leap frog, trigger discipline) [Tho VOIP does indeed help these things happen as people give tips and orders]

Edited by Saobh, 25 November 2014 - 02:58 AM.


#36 LowSubmarino

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 1,091 posts

Posted 25 November 2014 - 03:39 AM

What they should do is not only increase size but give an incentive to move to multiple advantageous positions on those big maps.

The rewards for conquering/controlling those areas should be significant and unique in their nature. An example would be that one area rewards each team member with artillery. Another area could provide reinforcements. Of course that would be kinda hard to balance but I think thats possible. The team controlling the drop ship area first might get 3 mechs as reinforcments once 3 of their team died.

Or an area that provides repairs for a limited number of mechs. Another area that allows some mechs to rearm and so on.

That way you will truely have to consider where to go and there is no reason to only take the center high ground like on apine peaks or veridan.

Scouts will also have to finally start to use their speed and truely scout which way the enemy team went, what kind of resource they are aiming for. A good team going for artillery will probably try to find in or around choke points to concentrate their additional firepower. Scouts can then identify that strategy.

A team going for reinforecments might try a push as they have more numbers....and so on. There will finally be real strategies.

Those are only a few quick ideas. There could be other reasons to control certain areas before the other team reaches those places. But that would allow for bigger maps which will also encourage ppl to actually 'use' the additional space.

That would be a lot more fun than those many absolutely super tiny maps we have where you see the enemies spawning in the not so distant horizon, already shooting at you with erlls or gauss haha. I mean...come on. Why even scout if you see them spawning right there in front of you.

That is why so many maps play out the same each time; way too small and/or only one major resource which dictates positioning and where evybody runs to, e.g. high ground on alpine, center crater on caustig, middle of therma and so on.

Edited by oneda, 25 November 2014 - 03:41 AM.


#37 Karl Streiger

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 20,369 posts
  • LocationBlack Dot in a Sea of Blue

Posted 25 November 2014 - 03:45 AM

View PostSir Wulfrick, on 24 November 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

The scenario would indeed be immensely frustrating and, as things are now, is probably an accurate depiction. Balance would indeed have to alter, and probably significantly, but with current match times probably averaging around the 4 minute mark, I don't see that notional rebalance as a bad thing at all.

a change in balancing is indeed necessary.
First each weapon usage needs more penalty : not oh i can fire my 5 MLAS 5 times before i have to fade... but i can fire my 5 Lasers one time - but after that my legs are molten and i can't move anymore for several seconds.
So the usage of weapons is drastically reduced - when you decide to go Alpha - it means you place your bets and hope you can overwhelm the enemy before he can answer in time.

Together with a increased range (i loved the shots at 2km - and we need them back dearly) - you may have two companys of Mechs that probe each other - no "all in" charge in the unknown but real scouting - and painting targets - probing shots - look for reaction - and if you / the commander sees a option he decide to charge - and with falling distance your heat goes amok - because the chance to deal damage with each shot rises and of course the chance to get crippling damage too.

But with much lower levels of lead and light in the air - a commander may decide to fall back - when the flank he was supposed to attack is reinforced before his juggernauts can connect.

So the battle is a constant ebb and flow - with sharp attacks and retreats... until one side get the better hand....after 10-20min the final battle is inevitable and you may have streaking Mechs firing at short range into breaches and hope they can overwhelm the enemy before the heat turn them into non moving obstacles

#38 Jack Corban

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 560 posts
  • LocationPort Arthur

Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:00 AM

Some nice discussion in here keep it comming.

#39 Khobai

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 23,969 posts

Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:13 AM

Id like to see a moba style map where each team gets a base that deploys npcs vehicles on specific paths. The object of the game would be to destroy the enemy's HQ building. The game would use dropship mode but if all 4 of your mechs are destroyed you could start respawning as a tank instead.

Also scattered throughout the map would be 3 random objectives, and controlling those objectives, would give a global bonus to your whole team in addition to increasing the spawn amount/frequency of your NPC units.

the objectives could be things like orbital guns, mech repair bays, dropship gantries, satillite uplinks, etc... there might be 6-8 different buildings in the pool but only 3 would be selected at random to be placed on the map. that would add some variation to the games.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2014 - 10:16 AM.


#40 Sandpit

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 17,419 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationArkansas

Posted 25 November 2014 - 10:33 AM

View PostJack Corban, on 24 November 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

I want that "thinking man's shooter"

AMEN
+10000000000000





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users