93 replies to this topic

[Jack Corban]

What this game needs is actual maps that stop beeing Arena maps.

They need to increase the size drastically to make this game for once use actual tactics and movement.

What good is a scout Mech if you only have to walk 200m to have scouted the entire enemy team allready. "Rivercity, Forrest Colony" i'm looking at you at the moment.

"Alpine and Terra Therma" were moves in the right direction but to be honest they are too small still and are too focused on the middle of the map.
Maps 2-3 Times the Size of "Alpine" would be maps i would call worthy of a mechwarrior experience. Not only would it increase the posibilities of movement it would also increase time to kill because most teams would have to fan out to actually be able to cover given ground effectively.

Asymetric game modes would be very nice too for instance one team attacks one team defends. For this to be interesting there should be multiple goals at the same time though. Simply having one team storm onto one capturepoint and the other team defending that one capturepoint results in nothing but a big brainless brawl, like every match i've been playing ever since beta first started.

This game needs depth to battles and while i do like the idea of Community Warfare around the corner which tries to achieve context to battles the actual battles still feel brainless and half-arsed.

What i want when i play a match of MWO is i want to take my lance onto a big map i want to enter a valley without knowing theres gonna be a team sitting behind the next turn because the map ends after that and its the last place the enemy is able to hide. Looking at you "Canyon Network". I want to be actually able to ambush a lance or even a company using terrain to my advantage. The old Mechwarrior games had plenty of good scenarios and map layouts that made this type of gameplay possible. MWO as of now has not.

Don't get me wrong MWO's maps are nicely done and really nice to look at. But the question we have to ask ourselfes is do we really want to keep playing a MOBA (Multiplayer Online Battle Arena) or do we want to start playing something that resembles warfare in the Battletech Universe. I know why we don't get Solaris Arena Mode. Its because we allready have it and noone dares to say it out loud. There i did it.

What i really think this game needs to become worthy of its name is these features i'm trying to portait to you now.

1. Bigger maps! 2-3 times the size of Alpine as a standart mapsize. Maps don't need to be clutterd with objects every 5 meters to be good maps. If Itemcount is of any concern during map production.

2. Asymetric Gamemodes as

2.1 "Secure Bridgehead" One team lands using Dropships or a Dropship (preferably Union Class or similar) @ a random location on the map. The other team starts in lances scatterd across the map @ random locations.

Team one (landing party) has to kill all opposition and secure the Landingsite for the ongoing Invasion. Team two (local garrison) has to take out the Dropship and destroy 1/2 of the landing party.The local garrison has a weight advantage as the Invading Party send a reconnicance expedition first to scout the actual landingsite. (Though process behind that is that a Union Class Dropship is far from defenceless and the weight advantage should make up for that factor, secondly the Dropship is a key component to making this mode asymetrical as it is a fearsome foe and if ignored to long will become very dangerous)

2.2 "Attack on key asset" This can be anything from an HPG to a local Garrison maybe even a Palace or a Starport. The Invasion is underway and waring factions begin to engage in landlocked combat around Key Locations. The attacker has the advantage of tonnage over the defender but the defender has stationary defences and terrain advantages (Minefields, Entrenched infantry, Defensive structures like walls with guarded gates etc.) The Attacking team has to secure between 2-3 Sub targets might that be a munitions depot or a mechbay for later repair & rearming (context is allways nice) or some other form of valuable target that gives context to why the factions are fighting over this specific piece of land.

2.3 "Convoy" Team one is guarding a convoy through contestet territory. (Politicians, Royal family, mobile M.A.S.H. unit, you name it) The convoy needs to reach a certain exit location or team one needs to eliminate all hostiles in the area for a win. The Convoy takes a random predefined path across the map. Team 2 is scattered across the map @ random locations in groups of two. They got intel somthing is comming their way but they needed to fan out thin to be able to make sure they do not miss it. Team two's objective eliminate all hostiles in the area or liberate the convoy from its defenders.


These are Gamemodes that resemble Warfare in the Battletech Universe and i'm sure if you think about this for a while you will come up with even better examples.

Fact is MWO as is at the moment is stale and i think that this will be the downfall of it rather sooner then later. And the fact that PGI needs to make up tournaments for "free stuff" shows that playercounts have been dropping. Now with the addition of CW on the Horizon these or similar Gamemodes could be implemented to make battles on planets or over planets last longer be more engaging and give the game a whole lot more depth to it.

And even if you use modes like these uncoupled from CW you can make both teams switch sides after the first round. The team that does best overall after 2 rounds wins.

What i'm trying to achieve with modes like these is to stretch out battles rather then having them all center around one location on the same spot every time you play a certain map.

The key to achieving that is random placement. It forces the player and subsequential the team as a whole to adapt to a new situation each game rather then running "attack pattern Bravo" - (circle caldera counterclockwise till everyone is dead)

3. Bring back the classic Radar mechanic so players can lure enemies using active radar or try to infiltrate enemy territory using passive radar. It would also benefit the BAP and ECM mechanics as they behave completly different in these enviroments. ECM decreases the detectionrange of enemy Radar whilst not giving away its own location at the same time. Where as BAP increases Radar ranges and makes passiv Radar users detectable earlier and also detects Powered down mechs.

Discuss!

Finding any typos or grammatical errors? Keep em.

Cheers,

Jack Corban

Edited by Jack Corban, 24 November 2014 - 05:51 AM.

[El Bandito]

Another good game mode should be "Raid".

There will be multiple raiding objectives on the map, and the attacking team should assault an objective, take down the defense turrets, stand near the objective for X - amount minutes to "empty" the place. Once the time passes, the attacking team can retreat to drop-off site to dust off with the loot, or go for another objective. The raiders can also split off to raid multiple objectives at the same time, but it will be much riskier.

The defending team must try to prevent the raiding enemy from taking off with any loot but needs to know where the enemy will strike and get there ASAP. It is best to post scouts near all the objectives and then converge once the raiders are spotted. The defending team will have multiple spawns so the raiders will not have the luxury of staying indefinitely.

The end game rewards for both teams will factor in the amount of loot raided and the amount of loot protected, making the loot primary means of income, rather than the destruction of the enemy. If the raiding forces are completely destroyed, then naturally there will be no loot based rewards for them. Therefore the attacking team must weigh in the risk vs. reward factor.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 December 2014 - 09:23 PM.

[Blood Rose]

YES

I have been feeling the need for larger maps for a while now and even posting the need too.

Our current maps are too small, we need larger ones and ones that are not so centrally foccussed, ones where there are multiple engagement spots, not just one big one. If my Jenner can go from spawn to centre in 20 seconds then the map is too small. Newer, bigger maps with less central focus or single focus points would add to a better game experience. My light shouldnt be able to reach the centre in less than half a minute, it should take at least two.

Bigger, more evenly laid out maps are what we need.

[Apocryph0n]

+1 to the sensor mechanics (on big maps. on the tiny ones we have atm they make no sense, since you can't really hide anyways )

[Wolf Ender]

I didn't read the whole post but I agree with the larger maps at least. The current maps all seem to funnel you into, at most, 3 ways to go, and the engagements usually happen in the same 2-3 places the vast majority of the time. It's boring and leaves no room for creativity for lance commanders.

Any deviation from the formulaic routes usually results in utter death. At least a third of the maps in the current pool should be larger than alpine is. IMHO Alpine is like a medium sized map.

[mindwarp]

All great points. I'd love to see all of these implemented.

[Karl Streiger]

The maps arn't that bad - but they all need a specific tool to become great:


or in words - all map features have to become wider and smoother - i think the current Forest Colony Map would be great at 4 times the area (without addition of cover) - just the current hills and stones turn into smooth hills

Edited by Karl Streiger, 24 November 2014 - 02:52 AM.

[Attish]

Mr. Corban!

I'd like to see more people with your point of view on the PGI staff! The game needs more depth and the battles need some objectives and/or background.
Also on the sensor/radar part:
I'd like to see the use of C3/C3slave/ computers, then spotting and scouting ll be one of the most important part of the matches (and maybe it ll solve boating problems).

[Senor Cataclysmo]

Great idea.

I love just playing casual brawley games, but adding more depth can only help the game in the long run. Once CW is up and running & stable, this would be the next *big* thing I would like to see.

[o0Marduk0o]

Jack Corban, on 24 November 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

Maps 2-3 Times the Size of "Alpine" would be maps i would call worthy of a mechwarrior experience. Not only would it increase the posibilities of movement it would also increase time to kill because most teams would have to fan out to actually be able to cover given ground effectively.

Longer time to kill because it takes more time to meet in the middle to do the same as on every map.

[Bongo TauKat]

2.3 "Convoy" Team one is guarding a convoy through contestet territory. (Politicians, Royal family, mobile M.A.S.H. unit, you name it) The convoy needs to reach a certain exit location or team one needs to eliminate all hostiles in the area for a win. The Convoy takes a random predefined path across the map. Team 2 is scattered across the map @ random locations in groups of two. They got intel somthing is comming their way but they needed to fan out thin to be able to make sure they do not miss it. Team two's objective eliminate all hostiles in the area or liberate the convoy from its defenders.

God no. Convoy or escort missions are always the worst mission in any game. Once the enemy finds you they concentrate fire on one vehicle at a time in expense of their lives to win the victory conditions. Not only that but the AI usually has you screaming "Why the frak are you still going slow/into the line of fire?!"

The rest sound awesome. But seriously if escort missions were inacted I would simply turn around, kill the convoy, and hope for a new mission next drop than sit through that. Even if securing the convoy is to be captured it still makes you scream.

Edited by Bongo TauKat Talasko, 24 November 2014 - 03:17 AM.

[Jack Corban]

o0Marduk0o, on 24 November 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

Longer time to kill because it takes more time to meet in the middle to do the same as on every map.

not really because the idea is to make the teams go after multiple targets at the same time and preferably have them split up in smaller segments and fan out. Thus making the fights ignite all over the map in smaller intensity. Hence TTK goes up.

Bongo TauKat Talasko, on 24 November 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

2.3 "Convoy" Team one is guarding a convoy through contestet territory. (Politicians, Royal family, mobile M.A.S.H. unit, you name it) The convoy needs to reach a certain exit location or team one needs to eliminate all hostiles in the area for a win. The Convoy takes a random predefined path across the map. Team 2 is scattered across the map @ random locations in groups of two. They got intel somthing is comming their way but they needed to fan out thin to be able to make sure they do not miss it. Team two's objective eliminate all hostiles in the area or liberate the convoy from its defenders.

God no. Convoy or escort missions are always the worst mission in any game. Once the enemy finds you they concentrate fire on one vehicle at a time in expense of their lives to win the victory conditions. Not only that but the AI usually has you screaming "Why the frak are you still going slow/into the line of fire?!"

The rest sound awesome. But seriously if escort missions were inacted I would simply turn around, kill the convoy, and hope for a new mission next drop than sit through that. Even if securing the convoy is to be captured it still makes you scream.

No the idea is to make the attacking team capture the convoy not destroy it. Destroying them could be a failure state.

Edited by Jack Corban, 24 November 2014 - 03:24 AM.

[LowSubmarino]

A lot of maps are way too tiny and render lights almost completly obsolete in terms of scouting and providing intel. They can be effective of course but their main purpose - scouting - is mostly not necessary.

I doubt that will ever change though. I say that mostly because ppl get impatient even after 1 - 3 minutes of no action and start screaming 'push push push' hysterically. Most ppl in mwo want super short games. 1 - 5 mins as long as there is action right away.

[Bongo TauKat]

Jack Corban, on 24 November 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

No the idea is to make the attacking team capture the convoy not destroy it. Destroying them could be a failure state.

Still makes me have flashbacks of every FPS and RTS mission involving suicidal convoy drivers. *twitch* *twitch*

[Blood Rose]

oneda, on 24 November 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

A lot of maps are way too tiny and render lights almost completly obsolete in terms of scouting and providing intel. They can be effective of course but their main purpose - scouting - is mostly not necessary.

I doubt that will ever change though. I say that mostly because ppl get impatient even after 1 - 3 minutes of no action and start screaming 'push push push' hysterically. Most ppl in mwo want super short games. 1 - 5 mins as long as there is action right away.

And this is why PGI should stop listening to the 10 year old CoD kiddies. Because we cant have true Mechwarrior whilst PGI are catering to instawin twitchy pinpoint l33t 10 year olds high on sugar.

[PhoenixFire55]

Step.1 Fire all the current devs.
Step.2 Hire new devs who actually care about smth more than income.
Step.3 Prosper.

Its all been suggested over and over so many times but it keeps falling on deaf ears.

Still, can only give +1 to OP.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jack Corban, on 24 November 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

What this game needs is actual maps that stop beeing Arena maps.

They need to increase the size drastically to make this game for once use actual tactics and movement.

What good is a scout Mech if you only have to walk 200m to have scouted the entire enemy team allready. "Rivercity, Forrest Colony" i'm looking at you at the moment.

"Alpine and Terra Therma" were moves in the right direction but to be honest they are to small still and are too focused on the middle of the map.
Maps 2-3 Times the Size of "Alpine" would be maps i would call worthy of a mechwarrior experience. Not only would it increase the posibilities of movement it would also increase time to kill because most teams would have to fan out to actually be able to cover given ground effectively.

Asymetric game modes would be very nice too for instance one team attacks one team defends. For this to be interesting there should be multiple goals at the same time though. Simply having one team storm onto one capturepoint and one team defending that one capturepoint results in nothing but a big brainless brawl, like every match i've been playing ever since beta first started.

This game need depth to battles and while i do like the idea of Community Warfare around the corner which tries to achieve context to battles the actual battles still feel brainless and half-arsed.

What i want when i play a match of MWO is i want to take my lance into a big map i want to enter a valley without knowing theres gonna be a team sitting behind the next turn because the map ends after that turn and its the last place the enemy is able to hide. Looking at you "Canyon Network". I want to be actually able ambush a lance or even a company using terrain to my advantage. The old Mechwarrior games had plenty of good scenarios and map layouts that made this type of gameplay possible. MWO as of now has not.

Don't get me wrong MWO's maps are nicely done and really nice to look at. But the question we have to ask ourselfes is do we really want to keep playing a MOBA (Multiplayer Online Battle Arena) or do we want to start playing something that resembles warfare in the Battletech Universe. I know why we don't get Solaris Arena Mode. Its because we allready have it and noone dares to say it out loud. There i did it.

What i really think this game needs to become worthy of its name is these features i'm trying to portait to you now.

1. Bigger maps! 2-3 times the size of Alpine as a standart mapsize. Maps don't need to be clutterd with objects every 5 meters to be good maps. If Itemcount is of any concern during map production.

2. Asymetric Gamemodes as

2.1 "Secure Bridgehead" One team lands using Dropships or a Dropship (preferably Union Class or similar) @ a random location on the map. The other team starts in lances scatterd across the map @ random locations.

Team one (landing party) has to kill all opposition and secure the Landingsite for the ongoing Invasion. Team two (local garrison) has to take out the Dropship and destroy 1/2 of the landing party.The local garrison has a weight advantage as the Invading Party send a reconnicance expedition first to scout the actual landingsite. (Though processbehind that is that a Union Class Dropship is far from defenceless and the weight advantage should make up for that factor, secondly the Dropship is a key component to making this mode asymetrical as it is a fearsome foe and if ignored to long will become very dangerous)

2.2 "Attack on key asset" This can be anything from an HPG to a local Garrison maybe even a Palace or a Starport. The Invasion is underway and waring factions begin to engage in landlocked combat around Key Locations. The attacker has the advantage of tonnage over the defender but the defender has stationary defences and terrain advantages ( Minefields, Entrenched infantry, Defensive structures like walls with guarded gates etc.) The Attacking team has to secure between 2-3 Sub targets might that be a munitions depot or a mechbay for later repair & rearming (context is allways nice) or some other form of valuable target that gives context to why the factions are fighting over this specific piece of land.

2.3 "Convoy" Team one is guarding a convoy through contestet territory. (Politicians, Royal family, mobile M.A.S.H. unit, you name it) The convoy needs to reach a certain exit location or team one needs to eliminate all hostiles in the area for a win. The Convoy takes a random predefined path across the map. Team 2 is scattered across the map @ random locations in groups of two. They got intel somthing is comming their way but they needed to fan out thin to be able to make sure they do not miss it. Team two's objective eliminate all hostiles in the area or liberate the convoy from its defenders.


These are Gamemodes that resemble Warfare in the Battletech Universe and i'm sure if you think about this for a while you will come up with even better examples.

Fact is MWO as is at the moment is stale and i think that this will be the downfall of it rather sooner then later. And the fact that PGI needs to make up tournaments for "free stuff" shows that playercounts have been dropping. Now with the addition of CW on the Horizon these or similar Gamemodes could be implemented to make battles on planets or over planets last longer be more engaging and give the game a whole lot more depth to it.

And even if you use modes like these uncoupled from CW you can make both teams switch sides after the first round. The team that does best overall after 2 rounds wins.

What i'm trying to achieve with modes like these is to stretch out battles rather then having them all center around one location on the same spot every time you play a certain map.

The key to achieving that is random placement. It forces the player and subsequential the team as a whole to adapt to a new situation each game rather then running "attack pattern Bravo" - (circle caldera counterclockwise till everyone is dead)

3. Bring back the classic Radar mechanic so players can lure enemies using active radar or try to infiltrate enemy territory using passive radar. It would also benefit the BAP and ECM mechanics as they behave completly different in these enviroments. ECM decreases the detectionrange of enemy Radar whilst not giving away its own location at the same time. Where as BAP increases Radar ranges and makes passiv Radar users detectable earlier and also detects Powered down mechs.

Discuss!

Finding any typos or grammatical errors? Keep em.

Cheers,

Jack Corban

El Bandito, on 24 November 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:

Another good game mode should be "Raid".

There will be multiple raiding objectives on the map, and the attacking team should assault an objective, take down the defense turrets, stand near the objective for X - amount minutes to "empty" the place. Once the time passes, the attacking team can retreat to drop-off site to dust off with the loot, or go for another objective. The raiders can also split off to raid multiple objectives at the same time, but it will be much riskier.

The defending team must try to prevent the raiding enemy from taking off with any loot but needs to know where the enemy will strike and get there ASAP. It is best to post scouts near all the objectives and then converge once the raiders are spotted. The defending team will have multiple spawns so the raiders will not have the luxury of staying indefinitely.

The end game rewards for both teams will factor in the amount of loot raided and the amount of loot protected. If the raiding forces are completely destroyed, then naturally there will be no loot based rewards for them. Therefore the attacking team must weigh in the risk vs. reward factor.


Oh, and remind these people that indirect fire is a core component of modern warfare, so man up when facing LRMs.

But for these to be any good they have to have objectives matter. Not just Epeen for winning or killing the most.
FOR INSTANCE:
Raid/Convoy
Not only do we get our normal winnings for the match, but the raid has a "prize" worth "X C-bills" Which is divided according to player end score for the match. To the Alpha Player, the biggest cut and less to each winning player after him/her. Motivation to actually try to be the best.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 November 2014 - 04:21 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 24 November 2014 - 02:50 AM, said:

The maps arn't that bad - but they all need a specific tool to become great:


or in words - all map features have to become wider and smoother - i think the current Forest Colony Map would be great at 4 times the area (without addition of cover) - just the current hills and stones turn into smooth hills

but how does a clay bowl help the maps?

PhoenixFire55, on 24 November 2014 - 04:01 AM, said:

Step.1 Fire all the current devs.
Step.2 Hire new devs who actually care about smth more than income.
Step.3 Prosper.

Its all been suggested over and over so many times but it keeps falling on deaf ears.

Still, can only give +1 to OP.

fire all the people who coded and let soemone else try to get on someones code. That sounds so amazing We probably end game that we play because MWO died.

Edited by Lily from animove, 24 November 2014 - 04:25 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 24 November 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

but how does a clay bowl help the maps?

Water retention?

[Jack Corban]

Guys Guys this is not a Hate on PGI thread. Please stick to topic and stay nice ok ?