432 replies to this topic

[Rehl]

I didn't read the walls of text up to this point, but I did vote, so here's my 2 cents:

Rarely, if ever, do I boat LRMs - even my Catapult is the K2 - and sometimes I do get pelted by wads of lurm from the red team. This usually happens because I've done something wrong: got caught without cover, or didn't see a drone over my head, etc. Sometimes there seems to be a lot of lurms flying, so you find some good cover and then give them a target. When you hear Betty's warning, use the cover. The only problem with this is that it eats up AMS ammo... which sucks. With that said, I do like the rewards for intercepted missiles idea.

[Dimento Graven]

Mercules, on 28 November 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

This is still you having a personal beef and bias against people using a weapon system that in the end enables you to kill your foes faster.

This is nothing personal it is a fact that you cannot ignore:

To use LRMs to their maximum effectiveness requires MORE than just the single pilot, it requires multiple people on the team.

The benefit to the challenge calcs the LRM user receives vs, what the rest of the team receives for their help is out of whack.

There's nothing personal, that's a fact of how this game works and how the challenges scored.

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This is still you believing 2 Large Pulse Lasers and 2 Gauss rifles takes superior skill. I went and watched your videos. You have fairly solid aim. You do, however, seem to lack a lot situational awareness. You coordinate with teammates very well as they call out targets.

Aiming is a skill. It is not the ONLY skill in MWO. There are a lot of other skills that come into play and for LRM boats one of the biggest is situational awareness. Much more so than for a sniper style that I see you often play in your videos and probably as much as a Brawler.

You see, an LRM mech can't go for direct LoS. In direct LoS they lose because the enemy can put damage onto them SO much faster than they can put it on the enemy. What LRM mechs are awesome for, though, is adding pressure on mechs already underfire. You see, you can only get so many mechs firing on one mech at a time. LRMs allow additional mechs to add damage to a mech already receiving damage.

As far as my situational awareness goes, sometimes true especially when drinking, however more often I'm just attempting to focus on a threat until it's gone because usually regardless of what else is going on, the one I'm focusing on IS the greatest threat, but I digress..

What you say about the LRM 'mech is absolutely true, I totally agree with everything, which is WHY they shouldn't be given SOLE credit for damage they require assistance from the team to inflict.

I get it that "match-wise" they are participating and helping the team and typically end of MATCH scores reward EVERYONE on the team according to their performance (direct meaning: nothing should be done to the END OF MATCH scoring and rewards) CHALLENGE-WISE AND CONTEST-WISE, however, the LRM boats are receiving FULL score for damage they could not have done without the rest of the team's targeting assistance and the rest of the team is receiving NOTHING.

>>IF<< the challenge/contest scoring reflected the assistance provided the LRM boats/users, I wouldn't even be here.

LRMs, as they are right now, are pretty much working very well.

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You see this as them "leeching" off your skill. This is BS.

The LRM boat users, as far as challenges and contests are concerned ARE getting unduly rewarded for their efforts. ABSOLUTELY, and if it weren't true, we wouldn't continue to see the population of LRM boats/users explode during challenges and contests.

That generally acknowledged fact alone lets us know there is something out of whack when it comes to scoring and LRMs.

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Sure you make a little red box pop up, but the guy throwing the LRMs has to decide, very quickly, if that lock is going to last as well as what is between himself and the target that will negate his shot. At the same time he has to be certain he is out of sight and doesn't have a flanking force coming up on him. Why? because unlike you he can't hope that you can add pressure to a mech he is engaging since you have all LoS weapons. He typically has minimal close range offense and so has to stick near the skirmish line while still not being too close to it while figuring out if you are going to hold that lock long enough for his slow missiles to get there and help you out.

All of this is nothing extraordinarily difficult and much it NOT unique to LRM boats/users. EVERY player has to worry about how much LOS to the enemy they are exposing themselves to, and if there's a flanking force coming up on them. Yes, absolutely the crappier missile boat builds are extremely limited in their short range response if they get flanked (which is why I hate seeing LRM only builds, how short sighted can you be), however, a flanking force that happens upon any mech or mechs they out number will typically have the advantage regardless of your build out.

So again, nothing unique to the LRM boat, and nothing that balances the risk vs reward benefit they are currently receiving.

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It's a noob weapon ONLY if all you do is pack a mech full of ammo and tubes and just launch at every lock you could possibly get. Some people will get results this way, but only against really bad players. If you try and be effective with LRMs it takes some skills you apparently don't place value on.

Why wouldn't you pack a LRM boat with as many rounds as you could? Even under the absolute BEST circumstance possible I think the maximum guaranteed hit percentage is only 80%. So yeah, even the vets will cram every last nook and cranny they can with LRM ammo when boating. Otherwise you're sitting there 90% of the time waiting for a mech with RED crit areas to be targeted so that you can launch, and that's just not fun.

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Because of your bias you believe they don't "work hard enough".

First off "bias" is your word. I would call it, fact confirmed through personal experience. You say potato, I say Toyota Truck, whatever.

What I am saying is the LRM boats/users are being overly awarded during contests and challenges and that we need to fix that to help curtail the regularly occurring explosion of LRM boats for every challenge contest.

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When most of the time LRM heavy mechs will do a lot of damage, get a lot of assists, and get very few kills unless their opponents are rather bad.

My changes to the calc only affects the amount of damage that counts and possibly the kills (where my calc affects EVERYONE in that only the kills that register as "SOLO KILLS" would count in the calculation). It's also possible that it wasn't that their opponents were "bad" but you had GREAT spotting. I've got a vid on my site of a guy named Dnarvel doing his standard Raven-3L build. This guy can REGULARLY have all 12 of the enemy NARC'd, the problem is during challenges and contests he doesn't play that build until AFTER he's completed it because due to the scoring of the challenges, he'll typically not get ANY credit for the TAG'ing/NARC'ing or UAVs he's popping up on the enemy.

Don't discount the skill of your teammates (which is what the CURRENT calculation does, by the way).

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Glad you think you deserve more credit than the 11 other people on your team. Shame that is a false belief.

If the other 11 people on my team were missile boats, sat behind a hill and took advantage of targeting information I provide via MY RISK, MY SKILL, MY CBILLS (invested in UAV's), et al, you're damn right I think I would deserve more credit. Just because I can't get a kill, or because NARC/TAG/UAV's don't count towards KILL ASSISTS in the current challenge/contest calcs doesn't mean what I was doing did NOT result in lots of points.

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Just play the game, understand the challenge scoring will always favor one mech type over another, and stop raising your blood pressure because you think someone else is getting more than you. For example you don't hear me complaining about how most challenge scoring is biased towards heavier mechs since it is mostly about kills, assists, and damage, something larger mechs can often do easier.

That's just it, challenge scoring DOES NOT HAVE to favor one mech type over another.

The current calc only considers kills, assists, and damage.

That's the problem. I'm glad you agree it should change. As you state, it favors heavier 'mechs leaving the lights and mediums struggling.

Now, if it were possible to factor in the spotting that these mechs provide, again, I wouldn't even be here, as it is, since it would probably be overly difficult to have something created and put in place quickly, the next best short term solution in the interim would be to normalize LRM damage scoring.

damonwolf, on 28 November 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Actually, I watched some of his videos and I noticed that he usually hits when a Mech stands still or is close. Takes no skill at all to point and shoot at a Mech that is concentrating on other Mechs. By his posts, he should have received reduced damage and points since he didn't have to work at all except to point and click while his teamates did all the work.

Damonwolf you're being an argumentative twit. Stop it.

The fact that an overly large amount of players seem to think they need to STOP before they pull their trigger is no fault of mine. I hit just as many on the run from a LONG distance as I do stationary and up close. Those vids are in there, just keep watching.

And admittedly I do prefer the stationary targets. I'm trying to complete the guillotine achievement, and it's much easier to nail that 4 square pixel cockpit hit box on stationary targets, so YOU GOT ME THERE!

Abivard, on 28 November 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

What about his videos of him consistently racking up 8 kills with his LRM mech, and he said he does it with one hand while the other is holding a beer mug he is chugging from? Does he really get 8 of them in most matches?

Most matches, absolutely not.

However, regularly killing 4 or more in a match while playing one handed, chugging my beer, hell yeah.

But who wants to watch THAT many videos of a drunken ******* lobbing missiles?

Mercules, on 28 November 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Hey now that isn't fair. You are forgetting the ones where he is shooting Medium Lasers at mechs beyond their range and shooting them with LBX 10s at nearly max range for them(which amounts to throwing pixie dust at them).

Yeah, I do that. Try and keep in mind I'm usually playing while drinking and I have two 'mechs I usually play:

1. The Firebrand with Dual Gauss and Dual ML's.
2. The Dirwolf with Dual Gauss and Dual LPL's.

Rather than having to "think" about which 'mech I've got loaded, I'm just in the habit of leading/following up each gauss shot with lasers, period.

It's a bad habit I admit, but due to the very cool nature of the builds, not one that really penalizes me...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 28 November 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[Abivard]

Dimento Graven, on 28 November 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Yeah, I do that. Try and keep in mind I'm usually playing while drinking and I have two 'mechs I usually play:

1. The Firebrand with Dual Gauss and Dual ML's.
2. The Dirwolf with Dual Gauss and Dual LPL's.

Rather than having to "think" about which 'mech I've got loaded, I'm just in the habit of leading/following up each gauss shot with lasers, period.

It's a bad habit I admit, but due to the very cool nature of the builds, not one that really penalizes me...

It is called muscle memory, it requires no thought, new borns are able to master this, it is not a sign of skill, it is a sign of repetition. but for some reason you seem to equate this ability to be an indicator of skilled game play in MWO, it is not.

It just makes you look more foolish and ignorant than you have already shown yourself to be.

[Dimento Graven]

Abivard, on 28 November 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

It is called muscle memory, it requires no thought, new borns are able to master this, it is not a sign of skill, it is a sign of repetition. but for some reason you seem to equate this ability to be an indicator of skilled game play in MWO, it is not.

It just makes you look more foolish and ignorant than you have already shown yourself to be.

Your assessment would only be true IF I were missing the mark, ie, didn't have the convergence point actually ON the 'mech.

There's the twitch response that automatically fires the lasers, then there's the skill based aiming moving done PRIOR to firing them.

When I'm firing pin point weapons, I'm AIMING them, not just pointing in a general direction and clicking, nor clicking and wiggling my cursor around in a "spray and pray" method.

Other than consideration for the range itself, everything else is a skill.

There's plenty of OTHER skills that rely on muscle memory, but we don't "poo poo" their value.

[damonwolf]

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It is called muscle memory, it requires no thought, new borns are able to master this, it is not a sign of skill, it is a sign of repetition

I LoLed

[zortesh]

Dimento Graven, on 28 November 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

However, regularly killing 4 or more in a match while playing one handed, chugging my beer, hell yeah.

But who wants to watch THAT many videos of a drunken ******* lobbing missiles?

Yeah, I do that. Try and keep in mind I'm usually playing while drinking and I have two 'mechs I usually play:

1. The Firebrand with Dual Gauss and Dual ML's.
2. The Dirwolf with Dual Gauss and Dual LPL's.

Rather than having to "think" about which 'mech I've got loaded, I'm just in the habit of leading/following up each gauss shot with lasers, period.

It's a bad habit I admit, but due to the very cool nature of the builds, not one that really penalizes me...

I call bullshit on the regularly getting 4 kills while playing one handed, unless you literally play against the worst players in mwo anytime you bring a lrmboat, and have a dedicated narcer working for you, this simply is not true, you need to move to get firing angles, find spots......

Given you might have a really loose definition of regularly and just be one of those docuhebag leechers that sits at the back firing at every target and occasionally getting good matches through pure luck... which i used to do as a newb while smoking a bong with one hand.


You say you mostly play dual guass mechs, which is easymode in the extreme thou.........

I say I run an assult lrm boat with a narc, I by far do the majority of the spotting for any team im on, im okay with them raining hell on my acquiring targets, dead enemy is dead enemy afterall.

None of this bullshit "lrm boats deserve less credit stuff."

Spotters do deserve more credit, the profitability of spotting is too low, and they should make challenges based on something other then assists and kills.

For instance challenges based around the "lance formation" "brawling" "flanking" etc cbill bonuses would make alot of sense.

[Vaderman]

LRMs are fine! Come to the dark side...

[Ushka]

More NO's than YES atm, but this poll is kinda not right for example if 75% are LRM boats or use many LRM's in general then result will be +- 75% no and 25% yes but doest say anything if they are to many or not becus they way i see it means yes is no and no is yes, also many will vote from group que expierence instead of solo que

It really depends from game to game sometimes the sky is on fire other times you almost see no lrm's at all, only thing what makes me sad is example Atlas, DireWolfs staying behind cover and spaming lurms,
Mayby they can make something like only catapults (wich are made for lrm boats) are only chassi that can lock target from behind cover, as they are squishy and easy to shoot 1 of hes mickey mouse ears off
But mechs that are more for brawling example Atlas, stalkers, timber/dire wolfs ect need line of fire

[Davegt27]

how about none of the above

let the game designers be the game designers

if you don't like this game go make your own

[zortesh]

Dimento Graven, on 28 November 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Zortesh, you missed nearly 50% of your gauss shots, though not all of that was actually any "lack of skill" but the fact you were using adv. zoom to aim (adv. zoom has its own visual lag that isn't necessarily compensated for in HSR), and that your graphics settings weren't optimized for sniping (I can make some suggestions to various config changes that would improve visibility to the point that, for the most part, would make adv. zoom superfluous). The fact that the enemy team stupidly let you stay up on that perch is what made it "easy."

The enemy made it "easy" for you. I rarely experience the convenience of being able to stay on a perch and snipe. 59 times out of 60, people are gunning for me from very early on, though admittedly my style of play with my dual gauss builds is a bit more "brawly" than what your vid shows you doing.

Cool vid though!

Yeah my aim was real bad for that match i must admit.. but it is the perfect match to show how easy sniping can be since i played with very little skill in that match, I often find it easyier then lrming on average.. but hey walls of missiles look so awesome.

Ideal conditions can make anything easy thou i guess, that particular match they had no guass snipers, and they'd of had to push through my team to get to me, any shot they took at me did very little damage.

The whole ignoring me because I'm somewhere unexpected and using hard to track guass shots helps thou.

How hard or easy your fighting is depends on your enemies more then your weapons mostly, htou ill always think of sniping as easyiest because its good in every situation and at every range.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

So the guy who is complaining that LRMs are too easy to use is actually playing mostly with dual Gauss builds?

This thread isn't just a wind up, is it?

[Zerberus]

Poll design is BS and /or obviously biased (even "no" votes require explicit selection of something that is "wrong"). I refuse to participate in it.

Becasue the only thing "wrong" with lrms is that PGI can`t buff brains and situational awareness, nor give the steering wheel underhive even more counters to it, without patching them completely out of the game.

LRMS are only as good as the target is bad. Period.

*edit* LOL, I just realized something: I actually also look at WHO I would be launching them at before I do so. For (true) example if the target kaffeeeangst or koreanese (when he still played), I generally won`t even try for a lock unless I know there`s no cover over where the dorito is. But if the name is l33tsn1p0r or similar, he`s getting every tube that`s ready to fire..... Simply because over the last 20 years I`ve noticed the ones with funky "leetspeak" names are usually the ones that invest more time in being cool than in being good = ideal LRM targets.

Edited by Zerberus, 29 November 2014 - 02:02 AM.

[JD R]

No, look the ecm Mechs around and try to use LRM.

[Razimir]

Abivard, on 28 November 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

This is the new style voting:

First you must vote YES,LRM's are OMFG OP!!!!@#&%$#@!
Then You may select to vote for which of the Many,many,many,many,many,many things that are OP about the LRM.

p.s. This poll has a ZERO TOLERANCE policy towards NO answers.

I wasn't clear enough!

D) There is not enough LRMs.

Option to vote this option is missing. Actually voted no, I think there should be more flying things on battlefield than gauss ammo, streaks and wubs. Let LMR pour, they are keeping the battlefield more interesting.

[ollo]

Biased poll is biased. Why do i have to choose 1+ ways to nerf LRMs when they're OK? Also there's no option to actually buff LRMs.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

I would only agree to LOS only if they gave me the ability to use the cat as a 1000M AC40 to a side torso. Give me an aim point and REAL fast lurms so I can tear you up just the same as AC's. And then we can talk.

[kazlaton]

Dimento Graven, on 28 November 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

All of this is nothing extraordinarily difficult and much it NOT unique to LRM boats/users. EVERY player has to worry about how much LOS to the enemy they are exposing themselves to, and if there's a flanking force coming up on them. Yes, absolutely the crappier missile boat builds are extremely limited in their short range response if they get flanked (which is why I hate seeing LRM only builds, how short sighted can you be), however, a flanking force that happens upon any mech or mechs they out number will typically have the advantage regardless of your build out.

You are being a little disingenuous here. Yes, any mech has to worry about being flanked and out numbered. But an LRM boat doesn't need to be outnumbered. A single brawler, even one that is less than half the weight of the LRM boat, is enough to totally stomp them. So LRM boats are more vulnerable to this, and need to keep up a better awareness of the battlefield.

[R Razor]

kazlaton, on 29 November 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

You are being a little disingenuous here. Yes, any mech has to worry about being flanked and out numbered. But an LRM boat doesn't need to be outnumbered. A single brawler, even one that is less than half the weight of the LRM boat, is enough to totally stomp them. So LRM boats are more vulnerable to this, and need to keep up a better awareness of the battlefield.

Or maybe, instead of building a mech designed to rely entirely on the efforts of their team mates, they shouldn't BOAT LRM's. I can't think of many mechs aside from one Catapult variant that doesn't have the option of mixing LRM's with other weaponry.

The problem is, most ezmode boys want to pack on the maximum number of noobtubes and the maximum amount of ammo and press that R key and click that mouse button while their team (at least in their minds) has the responsibility for locking targets and providing area security for them.

[kazlaton]

R Razor, on 29 November 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

most ezmode boys

And this is where we lose respect for people like you and Dimento. The constant use of derogatory terms on people who have a different opinion or play style than you. Hopefully, one day you will realize this will not win people over to your opinion.

[James DeGriz]

Problem is, lurms are balanced. If anything they're bordering on useless and need a buff. The problem is players that want to boat them are lazy and also the players that dont employ the huge number of counters to them or do simple things like moving when they're caught under lrm fire are equally lazy, if not more so.

You could nerf lrms all you like. All the time people are stupid enough to stay still, people will load them up en masse for some free assist monies.