18 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Here's something I never thought I'd say six months ago. The Trebuchet has replaced the Shadow Hawk 2D2 as not only the best current skirmisher in the game, but the best LRM 'mech in general. Here's the casual pugging build:

TBT-7M Skirmisher Supreme

The team-oriented model merely upgrades the engine at the expense of some ammo.

Now to the main questions, why is this the new missile king in an era with Clan LRMs? The answer is Quirks.

• Missile Cooldown +20%
  
• LRM/15 Cooldown +20%
  
• Missile Heat Generation -20%
  
• LRM/15 Heat Generation -10%

The real kicker is when you use a twin LRM/15 Treb, however, resulting in this:

• Cooldown +40%
  
• Heat Generation -30%

Combined with the recent changes to ghost heat (LRM5s being linked with the 10s, 15s, 20s) and upgrades to the 'mech's missile ports (all three launchers are tight 20-ports now) and you have an absolute monster that unleashes nearly the firepower of an AC/20 scattered tightly surrounding the victim's center mass every few seconds.


Playing the Trebuchet

With it's arm mounted TAG, jump jet for sharp turns, and twin super-buffed LRM/15s, the Trebuchet is effectively a super skirmisher, capable of higher sustained missile DPS than any other 'mech in the game. Given the 'mechs natural disadvnatages that left it trash tier in the past, however, I think this is a fair trade-off.

Simply put, you'll be able to get near-instant locks on victims and then assaulting them with a rocket-like barrage of missiles. Even quick bursts of fire on targets is worthwhile, as you can easily get 2 shots off before losing lock, unlike the typical 1 you'll have with other 'mechs.

Keep your distance, only fire two salvos on indirect locks max (UAV/Narc/etc. excluded) and otherwise just point at what you want to smash, TAG it, and hold down the missile group.

Long story short...

The Trebuchet, with it's massively overweight IS launchers and long standing bad reputation, will absolutely decimate a Timber Wolf carrying Clan LRM20s, or even heavier missile 'mechs like the Catapult and Awesome without even trying. It simply fires far faster, and far cooler, making it really stand out at it's role.

If you have any interest in LRMs or have sold the Trebuchet ages ago, it's time to give it another look!

ED: Due to it's rapid and hefty strikes, it's also far more of a threat at medium range than a typical LRM boat, which also makes it far more useful. Ideal engagement range is 350-750 in the slower version.

Edited by Victor Morson, 26 November 2014 - 01:17 AM.

[Revorn]

Yeah, its a nice one. i thougth about to buy me one, but for using only one 15 Laucher and cramming in an personal NARC for the Lulz.

Hows the Ammo on the Build with 2 LRM 15? Isnt it a bit low?

Edited by Revorn, 26 November 2014 - 01:42 AM.

[SnagaDance]

Good post pointing out the way quirks have buffed this mech into a very respectable role, but this little bit:

Victor Morson, on 26 November 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

The Trebuchet, with it's massively overweight IS launchers and long standing bad reputation, will absolutely decimate a Timber Wolf carrying Clan LRM20s, or even heavier missile 'mechs like the Catapult and Awesome without even trying. It simply fires far faster, and far cooler, making it really stand out at it's role.

Is not quite right. While it will be able to do good damage, an actual missile Awesome (that would be the 8R) will still crush the Treb if you try a *** for tat approach. As that mech has gotten some missile quirks as well, with a combined 25% Lrm15 cool down, 15% less missile heat generation and 25% extra Lrm 15 range (the least handy of the bunch if you ask me). So while it will shoot those Lrm15's a bit slower than the Treb, it will actually be firing 4 of them instead of 2 (or in your own words about 2 AC20's clustered near the center), while having a good amount more armour. So beware the Awesome missile boat still and in the meantime wreck face with this newly polished missile mech.

I just love how these quirks help to bring out rarely seen mechs!

[Rushin Roulette]

TBT-7M
Moved the equipment around a little to give you more damage potential once a light has found you (the arm can be shot off easily, so if that arm is gone, then you instantly loose 50% of your firepower).

However, I am really not a fan of such onesided build. It has 0 protection for itself if any mech gets within 180 Meters, then you are basically not even able to defend yourself from a critically cored Locust with a cherry red center torso.

[Joey Tankblaster]

Nice write up. Still own that chassis (as a light hunter). Will give it a try!

[Dagon Zur]

........ after the quirks, the 7M is a beast, 700-1000 damage games are so easy to reach now.

I'm a very happy Treb owner )

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Yay for the trench bucket!!!

Unfortunately that's one of the chassis I never picked up... but what I can tell you is that after the IS quirk pass I am most definitely loving my Locust 3M and Awesome 9M... sooo much S-PL and ERPPC love. Must be something about the M variants.. now you have inspired me to master a new chassis. Quick question, is the Treb 7M a Free Worlds League production like the LCT-3M and AWS-9M?

Thanks Victor and PGI

(after checking sarna it seems it could be Marik... well now I have a Marik Light/Med/Assault... can anyone point me towards a Marik 75 tonner?)

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 26 November 2014 - 05:38 AM.

[Joey Tankblaster]

While mastering that 7M Treb chassis try the Gauss/ERPPC Sniper-Treb (7K), which is my personal favourite.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...298eb699096250c

[Big Tin Man]

SHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Nobody expects the 7M can throw more LRMS faster than a Battlemaster 1S or Stalker. Chain fire the 15's and the constant stream NEVER STOPS. The sad part is hearing the 25% ammo message 3 minutes into the match :/

[Dagon Zur]

Joey Tankblaster, on 26 November 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

While mastering that 7M Treb chassis try the Gauss/ERPPC Sniper-Treb (7K), which is my personal favourite.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...298eb699096250c

Best sniper ever!

[Jody Von Jedi]

Even before the quirks, the 7M was my favorite variant of all the TBT. The 3 Energy hardpoints combined with Jumpjets made it the best all around of all the other variants.

I'm glad the OP is enjoying the TBT again, but IMO, and certainly no offense intended, he's playing it wrong. YMMV

The LRM15 quirk is a waste on this fine brawler mech. As others have noted above, the ammo limitations of a 50 ton chassis really hold it back from competing with Heavy LRM loadouts.

This is how the TBT-7M should be played. SRMs are broken again, so I'm not running it right now, but if PGI will get them working again like they were after the so called "Buckton" fix, I'll be rocking this loadout again.

If you want to run a TBT as an fast LRM platform go for the 3C with it's larger engine capacity with a single launcher.

[jackswift]

I too support the 7M as a lrmisher and it is fantastic at its role. This is my favorite build and it hasn't changed since March of this year when I got it LRMisher. And the 7K makes a great skirmisher as well Skirmisher 7K. I have had wonderful games in both was was surprised at the treb's versatility, especially with the 7K. It is important to note that I have no other LRM boat than the 7M (although I wouldn't call this a boat per se). If I want to fling missiles, that model is the way to go. It has the speed to keep up with the pack or get out of dodge, plenty of ammo, TAG to get its own targets, and sufficient back up weaponry with 2 ML when you run dry. As the third chassis that I tried out after the Hunches and Cents, it did not disappoint.

[DONTOR]

I would absolutely move 4 tons of ammo to the legs, that much ammo in the side torso's is just way to dangerous. Otherwise it looks lke a LRM loadout that could actually be fun.

[Wildstreak]

No, no, no, and no.
I have said it before and stand by it, IS LRM boats and even Clan ones should have more than just LRMs for weapons, you need self-defense. Mechs with LRMs and nothing else are not and never will be LRM boats, they are targets. Smart opponents will see your loadout in display and just one smart enemy with the right loadout will engage you at close range, it does not matter if you have a team, no weapons other than LRMs means you are a target.
Too much ammo as well.
I respect Victor and his posts about LRM boats before, they helped shape the HBK-4J & GRF-1S boats I ran but this build is all kinds of wrong. I was able to run a HBK-4J with twin ALRM10s & 900 ammo, a GRF-1S with ALRM20 & 900 ammo, both could end most matches with the same results as these 'nothing but LRM' targets. Even better, they could produce these results more often and more reliably therefore a team with such a boat had a better chance of knowing what it would do before the match began. Pure LRM Mechs fluctuate wildly on their end of match results, have no self-defense making them great targets and easy to kill, sometimes bad speed, overall they are less reliable therefore are worse.
Max JJs should always be on any LRM boat that can carry them, the flexibility of getting around to good shooting locations and frustrating those who shoot at you close up is mandatory. One JJ just for turning is missing out on the advantages provided by max especially on Mechs that can mount 5+.

If I had a 7M, it would look like this.
Same 45 shots provided by 900 Missiles through 20 tubes as I had on the HBK-4J & GRF-1S that are plenty of shots to last most matches, rarely will you run out if you choose right about when to fire.
The LRM15 I presume gets its cooldown reduction first so 4.25 becomes 3.4 that is close to the LRM5's 3.25 then both get further reductions to 2.72 and 2.6 unless the math is done different, still they should be close enough to fire together often.
Max 5 JJs, not as beautiful as the Griffin's 7 but still good enough for flexibility on the field.
2 Medium Lasers for defense while waiting or moving to team backup, better than having no defense at all.
More armor mean living longer.
Better speed.
More engine DHS.
It even has an AMS.
All that's missing is the gold cockpit toilet because PGI will not release those for sale yet.

There is the 5N version, no JJs but a third ML and an extra DHS, slightly less on quirks.
The 3C is exactly the same as the 5N, for some reason it costs more and has Missile quirks like the 7M.
The 5J can either lose 5 tubes for more ML or have the same tubes but lose a ton of armor. I would go with the former since its quirks are more Energy based.

4 out of 6 variants as LRM boats, that leaves the odd 7K and the SRM focused Loup.

[mechsnstuffyo]

Merchant, on 26 November 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

If I had a 7M, it would look like this.

Other than C.A.S.E in an XL equipped mech, this looks like a pretty solid build, i might have to throw one together.

[HlynkaCG]

M4NTiC0R3X, on 26 November 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

after checking sarna it seems it could be Marik... well now I have a Marik Light/Med/Assault... can anyone point me towards a Marik 75 tonner?

*cough*

[StillRadioactive]

This thing is intense with a single Artemis-15, LPL and BAP.

Just sayin'.

Edit: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bf93c8a0575844e

Edited by StillRadioactive, 26 November 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Victor Morson]

SnagaDance, on 26 November 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

Is not quite right. While it will be able to do good damage, an actual missile Awesome (that would be the 8R) will still crush the Treb if you try a *** for tat approach. As that mech has gotten some missile quirks as well, with a combined 25% Lrm15 cool down, 15% less missile heat generation and 25% extra Lrm 15 range (the least handy of the bunch if you ask me). So while it will shoot those Lrm15's a bit slower than the Treb, it will actually be firing 4 of them instead of 2 (or in your own words about 2 AC20's clustered near the center), while having a good amount more armour. So beware the Awesome missile boat still and in the meantime wreck face with this newly polished missile mech.

However firing 4 of them will spike the heat considerably; it might get better burst damage absolutely, but combined with the Treb's -30% cooldown and the Awesome's roughly 30% increase (Ghost Heat), ultimately, you end up with less sustainable damage over a period of time. If you're staggering your fire in half-second delays, ironically you'll end up firing less missiles per minute than the Treb since it can basically go shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot with just the two.

Not to say the Awesome is bad at running IS missiles. It'd likely be my 2nd choice with the current quirks, absolutely. And it'd have more staying power with a lot more room for ammo and other like minded guns.

Speaking of which, the slower version of the Treb has limited ammo difficulties. It tends to run close to dry near the very end of matches. I suspect the less-ammo'ed, faster version would work a lot better in a team game; I actually think the Treb would be useful in a serious game now just due to the crazy refire rate on that thing, combined with the awesome grouping.

As a side note, I'm so glad they got rid of that 2-port. That really hurt the 'mech, a lot.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 November 2014 - 06:44 AM.

[SnagaDance]

Victor Morson, on 28 November 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

However firing 4 of them will spike the heat considerably; it might get better burst damage absolutely, but combined with the Treb's -30% cooldown and the Awesome's roughly 30% increase (Ghost Heat), ultimately, you end up with less sustainable damage over a period of time. If you're staggering your fire in half-second delays, ironically you'll end up firing less missiles per minute than the Treb since it can basically go shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot with just the two.

Not to say the Awesome is bad at running IS missiles. It'd likely be my 2nd choice with the current quirks, absolutely. And it'd have more staying power with a lot more room for ammo and other like minded guns.

I'm not really following your math on this one. With it's awesome cool down quirks the Treb's 2 launchers can be fired every 2,55 seconds. While the Awesome needs 3,1875 seconds. But the Awesome has 2 pair of those so you could (and often should) stagger fire them to avoid ghost heat. Spacing your salvoes exactly apart would halve the time that the AWS is launching a double Lrm15 salvo, or 1,59375 seconds between launches.

In addition, even on the hottest maps (as long as you stay out of the actual lava on TT or the Caldera on Caustic) the Awesome can fire 3 Lrm alpha's and not shut down due to overheating and then switch to staggered volleys, making for one hell of an impact those first few shots.

But that's all theory-crafting anyway. I'm just stoked I'm seeing so many previously rare mechs in my games. I've had games where my team had 2 Dragons or 2 Quickdraws for instance (have seen the Treb only in singles up to now), and even Locusts are becoming more prevalent.