182 replies to this topic

[Gattsus]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

You get 12. And no matter how you rank it, Attrition ruins any hope of balance. As soon as My team can put two on one odds against one of your team, The favor becomes mine. Cause once you die, We can now go three on one. then four on one. It gets easier and easier to roll once the momentum start one way.

Obviously. The point that I'm making and explaining later is how such process comes to happen.

This is a simplified best case scenario. For example, starting 12/12, going to 6/12 by minute 7. The winning team at that moment, took such advantage at the cost of very damaged 12 mechs. The losing team came back 2/0. It is possible, it's loads of fun as It has happened to me. Obviously this is only one case, and one of the best possible IMHO.

The the other case is also possible, 12/12->6/12->0/12 ROFL stomp. Not fun. We all have had some of these.

Sadly, we don´t have real statistics about this.

Now, back to my initial point. I am arguing is that having tiers/leagues/hard-divisions would allow us to have more entertaining matches matches, This concept would, maybe, reduce rofl-stomps, since people of the same level is playing together. Like I mentioned before Starcraft 2 and Hearthstone, amongst others have this this kind of leagues implemented diminishing rolf-stomps. Though the implementation, I think, requires a large user populations such as that having leagues has significance.

Regarding the implementation, maybe 3 leagues, bronze, silver, gold (25/50/25%) could be a good starting point.

My two cents.

Edited by Gattsus, 06 December 2014 - 07:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gattsus, on 06 December 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Obviously. The point that I'm making and explaining later is how such process comes to happen.

This is a simplified best case scenario. For example, starting 12/12, going to 6/12 by minute 7. The winning team at that moment, took such advantage at the cost of very damaged 12 mechs. The losing team came back 2/0. It is possible, it's loads of fun as It has happened to me. Obviously this is only one case, and one of the best possible IMHO.

The the other case is also possible, 12/12->6/12->0/12 ROFL stomp. Not fun. We all have had some of these.

Sadly, we don´t have real statistics about this.

Now, back to my initial point. I am arguing is that having tiers/leagues/hard-divisions would allow us to have more entertaining matches matches, This concept would, maybe, reduce rofl-stomps, since people of the same level is playing together. Like I mentioned before Starcraft 2 and Hearthstone, amongst others have this this kind of leagues implemented diminishing rolf-stomps. Though the implementation, I think, requires a large user populations such as that having leagues has significance.

Regarding the implementation, maybe 3 leagues, bronze, silver, gold (25/50/25%) could be a good starting point.

My two cents.

Nope. I see that being abused all the time. I'm not here to play MechJocks online I'm here to play MechWarrior Online. As a Warrior I expect to face whoever drops against me, and to fight. If I get beat to a pulp then thats what I earned. AND stomps will not go away even if Leagues were implemented, because of Attrition. Comebacks CAN happen, but the odds are against it once a 12:10 imbalance is broken.

[Mystere]

LordKnightFandragon, on 06 December 2014 - 12:57 AM, said:

What MMs need to stop doing is using w/e mechanic it is that stacks the deck. WoT uses your win rate, if you win like 10 in a row, you will be assured that your next 10 games will be absurdly bad. If you win like 5, you will lose 5. I really hate that rigging of the MM. drop elo, and simply use Mech class and you need to fill a slot........3/3/3/3 go.....forget the elo and all that......then it wont feel the need to stick all the 3.5 KD, 60% WR players against a team of 0.75kd 45% WR players, which it does...

Contrary to popular belief, the MM does not stack the deck. It's a perception problem, not reality.

[Mystere]

Gattsus, on 06 December 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Regarding the implementation, maybe 3 leagues, bronze, silver, gold (25/50/25%) could be a good starting point.

Less eSports, more Battletech, please.

[Sjorpha]

Matchmaker does not "stack the deck."

What it does is occasionally fail to balance teams because there is a lack of viable opponents or other reasons so it has to give worse matchups to create games at all.

I'm sure it could be a lot better but discussing it based on conspiracy theories ain't gonna help with that.

The game is also naturally prone to stomps even with equal teams, the snowballing effect of early kills is huge. This is actually a sign that tactics matter and the game is not just attrition, so it's a good thing. Without stomps the game would be more bland because outplaying the enemy wouldn't pay off. It's also realistic, battle is very seldom "close".

Edited by Sjorpha, 06 December 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[Jman5]

Sjorpha, on 06 December 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Matchmaker does not "stack the deck."

What it does is occasionally fail to balance teams because there is a lack of viable opponents or other reasons so it has to give worse matchups to create games at all.

I'm sure it could be a lot better but discussing it based on conspiracy theories ain't gonna help with that.

The game is also naturally prone to stomps even with equal teams, the snowballing effect of early kills is huge. This is actually a sign that tactics matter and the game is not just attrition, so it's a good thing. Without stomps the game would be more bland because outplaying the enemy wouldn't pay off. It's also realistic, battle is very seldom "close".

Another problem is that people are unreliable. Let's pretend I have superstar Elo. Matchmaker is trying to even the two teams and puts me on the lower-Elo team to balance the scales. However, for whatever reason I blow it, do 20 damage, and die first. Now you have a sub-par team without their highest Elo player putting them even more in the hole. The matchmaker can't predict when players who normally do well are going to have a crummy match.

There is one thing I would like to see matchmaker improve upon and that is Elo decay. I don't think players who have been gone from the game for a year should come back and find their Elo right back where they left it. I have seen this many times where players I knew used to be hotshots come back and frankly are incredibly rusty. Yet Matchmaker keeps treating them like nothing changed. Elo should steadily decay until it hits average.

[InRev]

Jman5, on 06 December 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

Another problem is that people are unreliable. Let's pretend I have superstar Elo. Matchmaker is trying to even the two teams and puts me on the lower-Elo team to balance the scales. However, for whatever reason I blow it, do 20 damage, and die first. Now you have a sub-par team without their highest Elo player putting them even more in the hole. The matchmaker can't predict when players who normally do well are going to have a crummy match.

Plus, since Elo is based on weight class and not chassis, it can lead to some wacky variance. For example, I boosted my Heavy Elo quite a bit in my Catapults, especially my K2. When I drop in my Orion, however, I quite simply suck. I'm terrible in that specific mech. Depressingly bad, even. The Elo system doesn't account for that though, so I'm going against competitive players in a mech in which I simply can not and do not compete, and thus I am a wasted team slot. I almost feel guilty using my Protector, at this point.

The same thing happens in my Mediums. My Cicada stats are fantastic, and I am always a credit to team in that mech. I fear droppng in my BlackJack anymore though since it's basically just a paperweight due to my inflated Medium Elo.

[Gattsus]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Nope. I see that being abused all the time. I'm not here to play MechJocks online I'm here to play MechWarrior Online. As a Warrior I expect to face whoever drops against me, and to fight. If I get beat to a pulp then thats what I earned. AND stomps will not go away even if Leagues were implemented, because of Attrition. Comebacks CAN happen, but the odds are against it once a 12:10 imbalance is broken.

Sadly you don't have statistic at game level to back up your claims. Even if you gather post comments to back up what you're saying, they are statistically irrelevant.
Having said that, common sense tells that attrition is true, 12v6 most of the time will end in a loss for the 6man. Still, how often does this scenario or similar happens? We don't know. How often high elo gets mixed with low eLo and have a bad time (stomps), we don't know either? Most of what I read is supported by little general evidence but personal experience. If you want to go that way, I.e. Arguing the mm leads to rofl stomps, I can tell you I've had a blast and little rofl stomps. My K/d is 1.67, I've played 4.5 games and w/l rate of around 1

Still, the point I made is how attrition comes to be relevant. Which, I believe leads to the statement: because of some noobs we got 12/8 and then got rolled.

Edited by Gattsus, 06 December 2014 - 11:21 AM.

[Gattsus]

Mystere, on 06 December 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

Less eSports, more Battletech, please.

At least is a good example of how to have a successful Mm. Rage about mm in e-sports is more often than not, very little. You're good, you face good players. You're bad, you face bad players.

On the point of BT. How many times have we acknowledge that MWO is a game inspired in BT , and that given their different natures they can't obey the same gameplay rulesor balance. Though maybe you mean something else.

Edited by Gattsus, 06 December 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gattsus, on 06 December 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

At least is a good example of how to have a successful Mm. Rage about mm in e-sports is more often than not, very little. You're good, you face good players. You're bad, you face bad players.

On the point of BT. How many times have we acknowledge that MWO is a game inspired in BT , and that given their different natures they can't obey the same gameplay rulesor balance. Though maybe you mean something else.

I know a game that uses the Gold Silver etc tier system. And I see it Gamed hard. You wanna play this Like college Hoops or College football. Go home. Its a war game not a sport UNLESS you fight on Solaris 7.

[Gattsus]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

I know a game that uses the Gold Silver etc tier system. And I see it Gamed hard. You wanna play this Like college Hoops or College football. Go home. Its a war game not a sport UNLESS you fight on Solaris 7.

What have we been playing since closed beta? Yes, thank you, dm, dom and assault. Which is not a war is just repetition of the same thing with no impact but your elo.

And CW so far has little or no aspects of strategic war. Attack defend planets, that's deep (Irony). At least we'll be able to see our cooperative progress in a map and not in a number.


Still I'm curious what game you are mentioning.
For example having a class elo is ok, but not perfect like someone said, similarly in mobas to "general elo" leads to rofl stomps when you switch heroes.

I wonder as well if there is any other games that you know that has a good "ello/ranking " system.

[Gattsus]

Besides, I was thinking, sc is not a very good example for mwo since the preformance depends on far less players, 1-5, not 12.

[GRiPSViGiL]

It isn't the matchmaker as much as it is the nature of how lopsided games occur. Once one side loses even 1 mech the disadvantage is pretty sizable and once the dominoes start falling the gap to turn the game around becomes way to large to overcome.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gattsus, on 06 December 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

What have we been playing since closed beta? Yes, thank you, dm, dom and assault. Which is not a war is just repetition of the same thing with no impact but your elo.

And CW so far has little or no aspects of strategic war. Attack defend planets, that's deep (Irony). At least we'll be able to see our cooperative progress in a map and not in a number.


Still I'm curious what game you are mentioning.
For example having a class elo is ok, but not perfect like someone said, similarly in mobas to "general elo" leads to rofl stomps when you switch heroes.

I wonder as well if there is any other games that you know that has a good "ello/ranking " system.

An extended Demo. I have yet to successfully claim a single Planet from Clan Wolf or Jade Falcon, and until such a time as I win and lose worlds to those Clans I am not playing the game I am here to eventually play.

[Ursus_Spiritus]

Thanks for the feedback thus far.

[occusoj]

MM is pretty much useless.
In all games of the now 14 matches long stomp series Ive been there was no chance for any individual to have a noticeable effect on the matches outcome. Thats matches where half your assault lance is AFK, three heavies chase a light while the enemy forms a nice deathball to roll you over with. Your team is about 4-5 players short to begin with.
But most times, its enought to decide the game if one heavy and one assault really mess up big time. And honestly, its quite hard to stay in a game and not to just quit when its an obvious stomp. In either direction.

The concept of MWO amplifies the problem greatly as 12vs8 quickly turns into 12vs7-6-5-4-.... which of course gets much harder to win by each mech lost.
Playing becomes more and more of a frustration instead of beeing fun. I can tell the outcome of about half the solo-queue matches Im in based on the first 30-60 seconds. Another minute for the next 25%.

Interesting to me is that in most games I seem to face much better organized opponents. They dont scatter around as much as my team does. They dont regulary facetank assaults. Their heavies dont leave a line to chase spiders. And usually, I end up on the side that gets stomped. My W/L has to be around 0.6 or worse.
The outcome is the same. No matter if I do badly and get 200 damage or do ok and get 500 damage plus 2-3 kills or great and achieve 1000dmg with 5 kills. It simply doesnt matter.
Communication is pretty much non existant but thats no big deal as it doesnt matter anyway. Tell people in chat that theres massive firepower aimed at a certain spot and to not peek over that ridge - still half your team dies on exactly that ridge by peeking over one by one.

Its never ending frustration.
Even when we win. Most games, thats not an achievement at all. It was decided before the game started by, for example, putting 10 derps on the enemy team and only 5 on mine. I made the test and didnt shoot on a few expected stomps. Still my team ran over the enemy 12-2 or "better". Most damage was done by 4-5 people, the rest doesnt really matter besides sponging up some damage.
And I feel bad for the other teams players as they had no chance to begin with.

Yes there are some good, close games that are decided by intense fights but sadly, they are rare. About 10-20% for me.

MM cant account for all the factors leading to stomps, its not just its fault. How can it be fixed? Honestly, Ive got no idea.

[Arkmaus]

LordKnightFandragon, on 06 December 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

Yeah, and along the way, you meet nice lengthy loss streaks for some unexplained reason. That, or your win rate is already right around the goal of keeping you at 50%, so there is no need to stack your deck.

Just need to carry more sometimes. Most of my loss streaks are pretty darn low compared to my win streaks. I'm at around 58% right now. My WR the past 2 weeks has been about 75%.

[Quaamik]

The match maker is either broken or useless. Either that or the hit registry is screwed.

I'm an average player at best and have been playing the mech franchise since MW2. I have a fair amount of knowledge and skill, know how to balance weapons and what their advantages / drawbacks are. I also understand that NO matchmaker can compensate or 1 or more players that blow it, or account for the fact that once one team is down 2 or 3 (and the other is still at full strength) the weaker team is now likely to get rolled badly.

The problem is that the results fo individual payers vary widely. Too widely, and too consistently to be chance.

Take myself today, Sat Dec 6. Late morning early afternoon EST, I played a series of matches. Some win, some lose, some where one team or the other got rolled. Every match, and I mean every single one ended a in match ranking for me of 58 or higher. half of them were over 90 and a third were over 100. I'm not that good (to be consistently over 90). Then go back out around 3:30 pm. 3 straight matches where I could not do more than 90 damage before being killed, and I wasn't the first on my team to be killed and was not hiding.

Oh yes, this was all in the same mech with the same load out.

There is no way that can happen, unless I was being thrown into matches with players of much lower skill in the morning and players far above my skill level in the afternoon. Or, alternately, the hit registry is so broken that it just doesn't register hits at times.

Edited by Quaamik, 06 December 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[Sandpit]

Quaamik, on 06 December 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

The match maker is either broken or useless. Either that or the hit registry is screwed.

I'm an average player at best and have been playing the mech franchise since MW2. I have a fair amount of knowledge and skill, know how to balance weapons and what their advantages / drawbacks are. I also understand that NO matchmaker can compensate or 1 or more players that blow it, or account for the fact that once one team is down 2 or 3 (and the other is still at full strength) the weaker team is now likely to get rolled badly.

The problem is that the results fo individual payers vary widely. Too widely, and too consistently to be chance.

Take myself today, Sat Dec 6. Late morning early afternoon EST, I played a series of matches. Some win, some lose, some where one team or the other got rolled. Every match, and I mean every single one ended a in match ranking for me of 58 or higher. half of them were over 90 and a third were over 100. I'm not that good (to be consistently over 90). Then go back out around 3:30 pm. 3 straight matches where I could not do more than 90 damage before being killed, and I wasn't the first on my team to be killed and was not hiding.

Oh yes, this was all in the same mech with the same load out.

There is no way that can happen, unless I was being thrown into matches with players of much lower skill in the morning and players far above my skill level in the afternoon. Or, alternately, the hit registry is so broken that it just doesn't register hits at times.

see my tips listed earlier as well as the explanation of how the MM works and how it isn't "broken"

[occusoj]

Quote

Either that or the hit registry is screwed.

Hitreg is far from perfect. The more you shoot simultaneously, the less will actually register.
The faster your target moves, the more damage will disappear.
If your target spams JJs, hitreg gets messed up even more.

Server load and higher pings seem to make it a bit worse too.