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Match Making Is Pathetic.


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#41 Sandpit

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 01:47 PM

View Postoccusoj, on 06 December 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Hitreg is far from perfect. The more you shoot simultaneously, the less will actually register.
The faster your target moves, the more damage will disappear.
If your target spams JJs, hitreg gets messed up even more.

Server load and higher pings seem to make it a bit worse too.

yes and no
fast firing weapons that apply multiple hits don't "register" damage on your side but the enemy and server still register them.

I've posted about this in the past and tested it with several others.

Example:
I ran a 3 UAC5 Illya, that's a very rapid fire build. I noticed that even though I was dead on and should have been hitting hte target, most of my shots weren't "registering" in that my reticle wouldn't light up to show me I scored a hit.
At the end of the match I looked over damage and had done well over 800 damage (no way that would have been possible with the number of "missed" shots my screen had been showing), so I tested it out with some other players.

Even though my client wasn't registering the hits, the enemy still took damage and the server registered hits. It only happens on weapons that hit with multiple shots in quick succession from what I've seen.
SRMs
multiple AC builds
LRMs
etc.

#42 Darth Mech

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 01:55 PM

The "Match Maker" is a myth. You are being matched on a first-come, first-served basis.

Fill the bucket, launch the match. Within paper-thin, vastly wide conditions.

When you accept this truth, you will be one step closer to becoming a true MechWarrior.

#43 Sandpit

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 01:59 PM

View PostDarth Mech, on 06 December 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

The "Match Maker" is a myth. You are being matched on a first-come, first-served basis.

Fill the bucket, launch the match. Within paper-thin, vastly wide conditions.

When you accept this truth, you will be one step closer to becoming a true MechWarrior.

and then you get people like this who have no idea what they're talking about and have decided that they "know" the "truth" when it's factually false so then we get new players thinking that it's true when they run into a string of losses or wins.

Just stop dude. You're factually incorrect. If it were first come basis, there wouldn't be players with lengthy wait times while the MM followed the ACTUAL (not based on your magical uija board science or whatever you used to come to your assumptions) process for placing players into matches.

SO instead of trying to spread falsehoods, follow things like the tips I laid out earlier to help improve your MM experiences.

#44 crustydog

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 02:48 PM

There exists a very good, time tested system to counter this effect in the game. I suggest we take a page from the martial arts schools. White belts do not fight black belts. In this case, white belts have to advance through several levels of training before they get anywhere near to fighting black belts. We are talking years of hard training here.

Even among the black belts there exists more levels of skill. I have seen a Second Dan black belt wipe the floor with three First Dan black belts. There is not a single brown belt I've ever met who didn't find their first exposure to fighting black belts a shocking experience.

In Battletech there is a dramatic difference between the green warrior and the elite.

The achievement system here is a good place to start, and I would build upon this by establishing greater segregation between skill levels.... as in, you cannot access the next higher level until you have met a satisfactory performance requirement at your existing level. Furthermore, like the Clans, regular performance testing is required to maintain your current position (to weed out the old, and useless warriors:)

Perhaps a more rigid ranking system - not the military rank - but an achieved skill ranking, would provide a better balanced game environment.

When inexperienced players are getting stomped by well coordinated team players, not only are these green players not having fun, they are not living long enough to really learn anything of value either. It is of little value to anyone really, and it chews up very valuable and limited real world server and financial resources. This is simply inefficient for everybody.

There are a great many games out there with different levels of play. Not every player attains the higher levels, and many players are quite content playing at lesser levels - levels where they themselves do find the game to be a real test of skill, yet where they can also play the game in a style that is suitable for them.

It is of the highest importance that the game remain fun, but also result in a sense of real achievement, otherwise it becomes boring - bored players leave for other games. Frustrated players lash out in anger - here and in game as well.

Disappointment comes from failed expectations - so what can alleviate that problem is a more rigid experience and skill system to channel those expectations in a reasonable way.

Segregation, based on merit, is the key.

#45 cSand

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 03:05 PM

View PostDuke Nedo, on 06 December 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

I actually think the MM offsets Elo a bit to be able to predict the outcome, in order to know if it should award Elo or not. If Elo is perfect, prediction will be impossible, thus unnecessary... and from what I have read, Elo uses prediction of result to award Elo, thus it "needs" imperfect matchmaking to work.

If this is anywhere near the truth the really must scrap the whole prediction thing and just make sure average elo is within reasonable limits and then count elo for every match. Hope I am wrong, but something is seriously wrong with the frequency of streaks we are getting in the solo queue.


No.


I really wish people would stop spreading misinformation based on lack of understanding and conjecture.

This sytem is not perfect but it's not some mystical entity like some seem to believe, controlling and deciding matches based on whatever crazy ass reason people come up with

It's great and all to try and blame the MM for you having a bad run of matches, having some lopsides losses/victories, or your general suckage. But it doesn't change the truth and frankly the outcome of a match is in your/your team's hands and not some decision made on the server.

Jebus. This sh*t reminds of Zoolander when they told them the files were in the computer.

#46 Sandpit

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 03:07 PM

View Postcrustydog, on 06 December 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:


When inexperienced players are getting stomped by well coordinated team players,.

I appreciate your sentiments

but

this is factually false

new players aren't playing against organized and coordinated team players.
it's impossible
new players who just downloaded the game and started playing aren't on teamspeak servers and dropping in the group queue.

View PostcSand, on 06 December 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:


No.


I really wish people would stop spreading misinformation based on lack of understanding and conjecture.

This sytem is not perfect but it's not some mystical entity like some seem to believe, controlling and deciding matches based on whatever crazy ass reason people come up with

It's great and all to try and blame the MM for you having a bad run of matches, having some lopsides losses/victories, or your general suckage. But it doesn't change the truth and frankly the outcome of a match is in your/your team's hands and not some decision made on the server.

Jebus. This sh*t reminds of Zoolander when they told them the files were in the computer.

you're telling me

it's just the new boogeyman and scapegoat

It used to be premades, then those got removed from solo queue
for a while it was "new players"
then it was groups again because some wanted to try and start a csonpiracy theory that groups were still dropping in solo queue
now it's MM

They'll always look for a "reason"

#47 Duke Nedo

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 03:49 PM

View PostcSand, on 06 December 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:


No.


I really wish people would stop spreading misinformation based on lack of understanding and conjecture.

This sytem is not perfect but it's not some mystical entity like some seem to believe, controlling and deciding matches based on whatever crazy ass reason people come up with

It's great and all to try and blame the MM for you having a bad run of matches, having some lopsides losses/victories, or your general suckage. But it doesn't change the truth and frankly the outcome of a match is in your/your team's hands and not some decision made on the server.

Jebus. This sh*t reminds of Zoolander when they told them the files were in the computer.


No need to be an ***. Like I wrote, I hope it's not like this. BUT, the MM creates more streaks than you would expect from a random series of coin-flips (which is what we should be having if every game was 50:50 chance of winning:losing before the match starts).

Make a simple estimate, the chance of 10 matches being a streak of 10 losses is ~0.1%, or ~0.2% for a win or a loss streak. If you attempt this ~700 times, you stand ~50% of succeeding to flip a coin to heads 10 times in a row once. If you estimate the number of flips used (starting over every time you fail) we could guess that these 700 attempts would use some ~2000 flips. I have some 4500 drops, that would give me just a little more than "two 50% chances of getting a 10 match loss streak". Probably not entirely mathematically correct, but you see what I try to say? I have had more streaks that I would expect, both wins and losses. It feels very cyclic and I have read lots of other people claiming the same. I know it is possible that I have the strangest luck... In the long run it evens out, after reset I now have 902 wins, 814 losses so I feel I am doin OK. It's just the long streaks of wins and losses I am seriously frustrated with.

I am not trying to spread any rumor, I am genuinely interested in what the hell is wrong/whether something is indeed wrong with the MM because when you're in for a loss streak it can ruin an entire evening of gaming and I have two kids so my gaming time if precious! :)

I recorded my stats today, out of the first 10 games I got 1 win and there was nothing I could do about it.

Now, don't assume that I am saying that clan-tag == good, I am not saying that, but you kind of get a hunch where it's headed when MM builds teams like these. It just doesn't feel like it did a very good job.
Posted Image
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Edited by Duke Nedo, 06 December 2014 - 03:49 PM.


#48 Sandpit

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:01 PM

View PostDuke Nedo, on 06 December 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:


No need to be an ***. Like I wrote, I hope it's not like this. BUT, the MM creates more streaks than you would expect from a random series of coin-flips (which is what we should be having if every game was 50:50 chance of winning:losing before the match starts).

Make a simple estimate, the chance of 10 matches being a streak of 10 losses is ~0.1%, or ~0.2% for a win or a loss streak. If you attempt this ~700 times, you stand ~50% of succeeding to flip a coin to heads 10 times in a row once. If you estimate the number of flips used (starting over every time you fail) we could guess that these 700 attempts would use some ~2000 flips. I have some 4500 drops, that would give me just a little more than "two 50% chances of getting a 10 match loss streak". Probably not entirely mathematically correct, but you see what I try to say? I have had more streaks that I would expect, both wins and losses. It feels very cyclic and I have read lots of other people claiming the same. I know it is possible that I have the strangest luck... In the long run it evens out, after reset I now have 902 wins, 814 losses so I feel I am doin OK. It's just the long streaks of wins and losses I am seriously frustrated with.

I am not trying to spread any rumor, I am genuinely interested in what the hell is wrong/whether something is indeed wrong with the MM because when you're in for a loss streak it can ruin an entire evening of gaming and I have two kids so my gaming time if precious! :)

I recorded my stats today, out of the first 10 games I got 1 win and there was nothing I could do about it.

Now, don't assume that I am saying that clan-tag == good, I am not saying that, but you kind of get a hunch where it's headed when MM builds teams like these. It just doesn't feel like it did a very good job.
Posted Image
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

The mm doesnt create anything. That's where the fallacy comes in and what those who understand the mm are trying to explain

The mm doesn't punish
It doesn't reward
It doesn't do anything except match you to players in an elo range. The mathematical equations used to do that don't change no matter how many times in a row you win or lose.

Your statistical analysis has no basis in regards to mm. You have a 50/50 shot of winning each and every game. There's no % involved in thr mm system regarding your w/l for anything other than calculating your elo after a match.

That's it. Nothing more. nothing less.

#49 Abivard

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:12 PM

View PostSandpit, on 06 December 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

The mm doesnt create anything. That's where the fallacy comes in and what those who understand the mm are trying to explain

The mm doesn't punish
It doesn't reward
It doesn't do anything except match you to players in an elo range. The mathematical equations used to do that don't change no matter how many times in a row you win or lose.

Your statistical analysis has no basis in regards to mm. You have a 50/50 shot of winning each and every game. There's no % involved in thr mm system regarding your w/l for anything other than calculating your elo after a match.

That's it. Nothing more. nothing less.


From one extreme of myths and superstitious faith to the other end, never getting close to the reality of the situation.

#50 Sandpit

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:20 PM

View PostAbivard, on 06 December 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:


From one extreme of myths and superstitious faith to the other end, never getting close to the reality of the situation.

And ignorant uninformed opinions abound.

Read the factual data some time. It's very enlightening as opposed to spouting ridiculous unfounded conspiracy theories

#51 Sandpit

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:50 PM

Yes because not believing someone's unfounded and uninformed and blatantly false 3 conspiracy theories is toe licking.

Again, don't be like this folks. Inform yourselves and give informed feedback from an educated standpoint.

Follow and try the tips others give you to help improve your gaming experience. Don't sit in the corner muttering about evil mm systems out to get you. Join the rest of us in the light and help us give tips and advice to others so they can improve their experience as well!

#52 occusoj

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:56 PM

Quote

yes and no
fast firing weapons that apply multiple hits don't "register" damage on your side but the enemy and server still register them.

Not always.
Consecutive fires arent nearly as bad as huge alphas. I dont trust the flashing crosshair, I know its not reliable. I run a WubShee with 3LPL and 5MPL, that results in an alpha of 63 dmg.
I usually shoot at stationary targets for tests, either ones that dont see me and stand still or -more often- mechs that are in heat-shutdown. So bad tracking and leading is no possible source of error.

Theres been many such situations were damage on said static targets just disappeared. For example:
63 points should blast a CDAs leg clean off. It didnt. Armor went to red.
63 damage should 1-hit kill a Spider even through CT. It didnt. Internals bright yellow.
63 damage should 2-hit kill a CTF with already orange armor. It didnt.

Mind you those targets were all in heat induced shutdown. The damage didnt spread to other regions, it just disappeared. I was well within optimal range. Thats just examples from the last days that I remember well, especially the Ilya that blasted me after awaking again.

So, 50/50 chance for W/L means that the chance of loosing a game is 0.5.
Loosing two consecutive games is 0,5^2.
And the chance of getting a loss streak of 20 games is 0,5^20, therefore 0,00000095. Maybe its bad luck and all the losses accumulate in the first 100k games for me. After that, there will be a huge win streak to even it out :).

#53 Sandpit

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 05:16 PM

View Postoccusoj, on 06 December 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

Not always.
Consecutive fires arent nearly as bad as huge alphas. I dont trust the flashing crosshair, I know its not reliable. I run a WubShee with 3LPL and 5MPL, that results in an alpha of 63 dmg.
I usually shoot at stationary targets for tests, either ones that dont see me and stand still or -more often- mechs that are in heat-shutdown. So bad tracking and leading is no possible source of error.

Theres been many such situations were damage on said static targets just disappeared. For example:
63 points should blast a CDAs leg clean off. It didnt. Armor went to red.
63 damage should 1-hit kill a Spider even through CT. It didnt. Internals bright yellow.
63 damage should 2-hit kill a CTF with already orange armor. It didnt.

Mind you those targets were all in heat induced shutdown. The damage didnt spread to other regions, it just disappeared. I was well within optimal range. Thats just examples from the last days that I remember well, especially the Ilya that blasted me after awaking again.

So, 50/50 chance for W/L means that the chance of loosing a game is 0.5.
Loosing two consecutive games is 0,5^2.
And the chance of getting a loss streak of 20 games is 0,5^20, therefore 0,00000095. Maybe its bad luck and all the losses accumulate in the first 100k games for me. After that, there will be a huge win streak to even it out :).

No
Thete is no sequential change. You have a 50/50 shot each and every game. There is absolutely no formula involved in the mm mechanics that do what you're implying. There is no greater or lesser statistical formula involved in the mm mechanics.
You're trying to imply that the mm mechanics account for win and loss streaks and they don't. It's really that simple. It doesn't matter if you win 10 in a row or lose 10 in a row. Tje next match uses the exact same formula and mechanics that it did prior to that string of matches. There's no sequential formula used. Each match is calculated the same with no regard for what took place in the previous match.
It's really that simple

#54 Sug

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 05:20 PM

My WLR has almost always been around 1.00, which I guess means the matchmaker is working? Even if that's how it's supposed to work, losing half the time just sucks, which is the real problem. Might as well just stare at the login page and flip a coin over and over for an hour.

#55 Sandpit

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 05:24 PM

View PostSug, on 06 December 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

My WLR has almost always been around 1.00, which I guess means the matchmaker is working? Even if that's how it's supposed to work, losing half the time just sucks, which is the real problem. Might as well just stare at the login page and flip a coin over and over for an hour.

I have never in my life seen so many people try to blame their wl on a random mm system like it's some evil entity or programmed to make sure they lose xx games

Smh

#56 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 05:24 PM

Matchmaker does not give streaks.


Players do.

That's kind of the end, right there. The Matchmaker has no way of knowing if your Mech is compatible with your teammates, or who's looking at the in-game chat messages. It has no way of knowing who brought a Mech they just bought, if they only brought 1 ton of ammo, or if they left their Modules at home. It doesn't know if you're drunk, or if you're giving a **** at the moment or not.

The Matchmaker does not intentionally put losing players all on one team for the expressed purpose of creating Steam Roll matches. That conspiracy is just as dumb as if you think PGI is selling* Founder's Packages just so they can take your Founder's Money and sell the company off before releasing a Beta of the combat mechanism.


*Yes, this was a real conspiracy, among real members of this community.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 06 December 2014 - 05:25 PM.


#57 Sandpit

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 05:29 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 06 December 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Matchmaker does not give streaks.


Players do.

That's kind of the end, right there. The Matchmaker has no way of knowing if your Mech is compatible with your teammates, or who's looking at the in-game chat messages. It has no way of knowing who brought a Mech they just bought, if they only brought 1 ton of ammo, or if they left their Modules at home. It doesn't know if you're drunk, or if you're giving a **** at the moment or not.

The Matchmaker does not intentionally put losing players all on one team for the expressed purpose of creating Steam Roll matches. That conspiracy is just as dumb as if you think PGI is selling* Founder's Packages just so they can take your Founder's Money and sell the company off before releasing a Beta of the combat mechanism.


*Yes, this was a real conspiracy, among real members of this community.

Like i said earlier it's just the latest boogeyman to blame. They don't have premades to blame anymore and it couldn't POSSIBLY be their personal skill or their team playing poorly. That would mean they couldn't somehow blame pgi

#58 topgun505

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 05:35 PM

I started skilling up the Locust last night just to do something different. I'm a good light pilot and I would say I generally know what I'm doing.

Last night... around 20 games (all solo). I think I won two. TWO. Nearly all were 0 or 1 to 12 stomps. Now being in a Locust and not having much experience with it I don't expect to be carrying a team. But yet I was consistently outperforming nearly everyone on my team. Every game. DWs with <100 damage while I'm having 400+ damage games. It's pathetic. I don't know what formula MM is using to put people on teams but whatever it is, it is not working for squat.

#59 Deathlike

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 05:35 PM

Elite players will play vs the bad players in the system... but that's not rare nor often. Sometimes you get stuck with idiots.. sometimes you get dealt with the Lords on your team. It is what it is.

The problem primarily stems from people not maximizing their chances to win... which is a team-wide effort. Sometimes it takes a lance to chase a squirrel and then get rolled 12-1 (the 1 death being the squirrel they chase... which may not even die).

It's never "clear cut" as people make it out to be. If you and your team play better, you'll probably win more than you lose. There's no other quicker explanation. Also, expect the competition to become better (and subsequently your teammates may occasionally get worse) over time as you get better.

#60 occusoj

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 06:16 PM

Quote

They don't have premades to blame anymore and it couldn't POSSIBLY be their personal skill or their team playing poorly.

In fact it isnt their personal skill in some matches.
As stated, Ive not fired a single shot in some stomps for the sake of testing the impact. My team rolled over the enemy 12-0 or at worst 12-2. Looking at the stats its obvious that 3 or 4 players dealt serious damage, the rest is much below that. One individual player on the loosing team couldnt have prevented that as engagements were always 4-10 or worse for them.
The individual has extremely little input only in those matches that already put the loosing team behind a couple of mechs because they either have some AFK, extreme derpups or half of their assaults are LRM atlai.

Team performance is a big part of it, if they spread out, suicide, stop in chockepoints,.... and the other team doesnt, they will get stomped. As an individual its still frustrating if that happens like 10 times in a row.

And as I stated in my first post, MM has currently no way of knowing enought about the players to prevent total stomps.

I dont blame MM for my poor skill, I know Im a bad player all by myself. Still wondering why I often dont get matched against similiar bads.

Quote

Thete is no sequential change. You have a 50/50 shot each and every game. There is absolutely no formula involved in the mm mechanics that do what you're implying.

Well, thats exactly what you actually state.
Theres a 50/50 chance with each match to win or loose. Its like flipping a coin.
Each flip has an individual chance of 0.5 to yield result A (and 0.5 for B).
A streak is nothing more than a series of flips that each have the same result.
So flip the coin, get side A. Flip again, side A. AND side A, AND side A, AND side A,....
Each individual flip still has the same 0.5 chance of resulting in A and B. For the whole series of flips to have the same result its 0.5^n.

Or firing an UAC. Each individual (double tapped) shot has a given chance of jamming the weapon. Theoretically you could fire 100 such shots without a jam, its not impossible but extremely rare.

Edited by occusoj, 06 December 2014 - 06:17 PM.






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