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Match Making Is Pathetic.


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#1 Ursus_Spiritus

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 12:52 AM

Dear PGI -

There is no pleasure in constantly winning nor constantly losing.
Where are the stats on games ending with 12/0, 12/1, 12/2. 12/3 Kills?

I know I'm not the only one tired of getting thrown into seriously lop sided matches.
And, before any "geniuses" comment with their low IQ quips, e.g, "LTP, u suck or tldr, etc* (Sorry that your attention span is so short.)
I know how to play, Thank you. I've probably been playing longer than you have been alive.

Now, for those that can offer constructive opinions? I'd like to hear/discuss other view points.

As for game play:
I can hold my own and my stats reflect as such. I consider myself, maybe average at best (if even that.) I have no desire to play at a competition level. I just want to have fun with fellow pilots and not get "ELO'd" with stacked teams.

Matches ending 12-1/0 is not a balanced system.
Getting 10 out of 12 matches as losses is not a "fun" experience.

I have had great matches where tactics and team work do matter. I've also had matches where my team lost but it wasn't a complete slaughter and nonetheless a great learning experience.
I am also quite well aware that not every match is going to be a good fight or a great loss, even an easy victory. My point is that the poor matching of "ELO" as well as taking three 4 man, or a mix of PUG/4man against a 8+ man team has to stop.

Team building is quite essential to this game as no one person can carry a team for a win/loss.
When a match is 6, 0 and less than 5 minutes in... That is not a good sign. I lost count of how many times I was either the last or one of the last still alive in a match because I fought smart. (I was not hiding for the low IQ crowd.) A Clan Warrior does not hide. I respect well applied tactics, dumb luck and skilled pilots. I don't respect a system that is not balanced.

Playing a game should not be a persistent lesson in futility.
Those that want to play high level? Great! Set a queue just for them.
Those of us that want to play for fun? We are not bonus points for their C-bill/Exp and K/D ratio.

I'm probably over thinking this and I realize that I am just another number in the PGI player database. I know I can vote in not providing any more support for a genre that I have long been passionate about. Despite it's flaws, (except of course when Microsoft got involved.) the Mechwarrior/Battletech franchise was a loved and worthwhile focus of my time and money.

Dear PGI - Fix your matching system for we the players.

#2 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 12:57 AM

What MMs need to stop doing is using w/e mechanic it is that stacks the deck. WoT uses your win rate, if you win like 10 in a row, you will be assured that your next 10 games will be absurdly bad. If you win like 5, you will lose 5. I really hate that rigging of the MM. drop elo, and simply use Mech class and you need to fill a slot........3/3/3/3 go.....forget the elo and all that......then it wont feel the need to stick all the 3.5 KD, 60% WR players against a team of 0.75kd 45% WR players, which it does...

#3 The Cloak

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 01:13 AM

Match making is fine, its people running around thinking they are awesome and can solo half the enemy team the problem.

#4 NextGame

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 01:15 AM

winning is fine, losing sucks ;)

Admittedly however, I would love to not have 11 clowns on my team who don't know how to blob up and shoot at things instead of just running away every single time in Rambo queue.

Edited by NextGame, 06 December 2014 - 01:33 AM.


#5 Shadow Magnet

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 01:25 AM

Keep in mind if one of the queues is unbalanced (like heavy is at the moment), the match maker will relax it's rules. I think that is one reason for the high number of bad matches / unbalanced teams at the moment.

#6 Arkmaus

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 01:33 AM

View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 06 December 2014 - 12:57 AM, said:

What MMs need to stop doing is using w/e mechanic it is that stacks the deck. WoT uses your win rate, if you win like 10 in a row, you will be assured that your next 10 games will be absurdly bad. If you win like 5, you will lose 5. I really hate that rigging of the MM. drop elo, and simply use Mech class and you need to fill a slot........3/3/3/3 go.....forget the elo and all that......then it wont feel the need to stick all the 3.5 KD, 60% WR players against a team of 0.75kd 45% WR players, which it does...


WoT doesn't use WR.

If it did, I wouldn't have 35 match win streaks. Lol

Edited by Arkmaus, 06 December 2014 - 01:35 AM.


#7 Onyxian

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 01:50 AM

Karma can be a ... well you know the saying

#8 Saobh

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 01:51 AM

Its not the matchmakings fault if people either blob while ignoring flanks or spread out all over the map as that are group behavior types which are pretty much impossible to predict without having the Watson computer dedicated to it.

What we need is a way to communicate more easily between each other (other then having to type) heck even right now the grid size on maps are so big that giving them for spotting or movement is akin to pointing at something with your bloody stump.

And frankly there should be a system in game to up or down vote your team mates reputation at the end of a match. Say you have a certain number of votes per day (or gain one vote every 5 matches) which you can use to appraise a player who in your eyes went the extra mile or downgrade a player who Leroy Jenkins at start. (this could also be used to actually be able to report / punish a player for intentional TK ...)


Anyways Matchmaker in itself isn't going to solve players attitudes. having more tools in the players hands so that they may learn and work with each other will (VOIP, reward system which promotes teamwork, non voip comms, reputation system etc)

#9 Sandpit

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 02:17 AM

View Post8100d 5p4tt3r, on 06 December 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:


When a match is 6, 0 and less than 5 minutes in... That is not a good sign. I lost count of how many times I was either the last or one of the last still alive in a match because I fought smart. (I was not hiding for the low IQ crowd.) A Clan Warrior does not hide. I respect well applied tactics, dumb luck and skilled pilots. I don't respect a system that is not balanced..

uh uh...

so MM is responsible for your teammates playing poorly?

There's no "magic" to the MM system here.

You have an Elo for each weight class.
You drop into a game on teams that have similar Elos
If the MM cannot find a match based on your selections (weight class choice, game mode choice(s), Elo) within a certain period of time, it relaxes the parameters. The longer it searches, the more lax it becomes.
The more selective you are in your choices with game mode (IE only selecting one of the three choices), the harder it is for MM to find a specific match meeting your selections.

Tips on how to avoid getting too far "out" of your personal skill range
Select all game modes
Select a weight class that you're "good" in.
If the MM searches for an extended period of time, cancel the search and relaunch. This is probably the most important. It prevents the MM from relaxing too much and kicking in more release valves.

In regards to "commonly being the last guy standing because the rest of my team sucks", take control of your team. Give advice and tips, offer strategy advice on force deployment and locations. That doesnt' mean complain about your team or other nonsense, but simply say "hey guys, i see xx over there, maybe we should do this, or "hey ecm mech, can you hang out around the main force and provide us with some ecm cover to help counter LRMs?:, or "hey guys, please don't commit 7 mechs to chase down that one locust".


Stuff like that will improve your MM endeavors.

#10 Duke Nedo

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 03:57 AM

The MM does create winning streaks and losing streaks, that sucks.

#11 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:05 AM

View Post8100d 5p4tt3r, on 06 December 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

Dear PGI -

There is no pleasure in constantly winning nor constantly losing.
Where are the stats on games ending with 12/0, 12/1, 12/2. 12/3 Kills?

I know I'm not the only one tired of getting thrown into seriously lop sided matches.
And, before any "geniuses" comment with their low IQ quips, e.g, "LTP, u suck or tldr, etc* (Sorry that your attention span is so short.)
I know how to play, Thank you. I've probably been playing longer than you have been alive.

Now, for those that can offer constructive opinions? I'd like to hear/discuss other view points.

As for game play:
I can hold my own and my stats reflect as such. I consider myself, maybe average at best (if even that.) I have no desire to play at a competition level. I just want to have fun with fellow pilots and not get "ELO'd" with stacked teams.

Matches ending 12-1/0 is not a balanced system.
Getting 10 out of 12 matches as losses is not a "fun" experience.

I have had great matches where tactics and team work do matter. I've also had matches where my team lost but it wasn't a complete slaughter and nonetheless a great learning experience.
I am also quite well aware that not every match is going to be a good fight or a great loss, even an easy victory. My point is that the poor matching of "ELO" as well as taking three 4 man, or a mix of PUG/4man against a 8+ man team has to stop.

Team building is quite essential to this game as no one person can carry a team for a win/loss.
When a match is 6, 0 and less than 5 minutes in... That is not a good sign. I lost count of how many times I was either the last or one of the last still alive in a match because I fought smart. (I was not hiding for the low IQ crowd.) A Clan Warrior does not hide. I respect well applied tactics, dumb luck and skilled pilots. I don't respect a system that is not balanced.

Playing a game should not be a persistent lesson in futility.
Those that want to play high level? Great! Set a queue just for them.
Those of us that want to play for fun? We are not bonus points for their C-bill/Exp and K/D ratio.

I'm probably over thinking this and I realize that I am just another number in the PGI player database. I know I can vote in not providing any more support for a genre that I have long been passionate about. Despite it's flaws, (except of course when Microsoft got involved.) the Mechwarrior/Battletech franchise was a loved and worthwhile focus of my time and money.

Dear PGI - Fix your matching system for we the players.

Dear Player,
MM cannot account for what happens to the beginning numbers once battlefield attrition removes one or two Mech's worth of firepower from the calculation.

Perfect balance
2800=2800
Minus 1
2567<2800
Minus 1
2334,2800
Minus 1
2101,2800

And it just snowballs from there.

Even if everyone carries his or her weight, Once attrition begins it is difficult to reverse the trend. The results are Mathematical and expected.

#12 Gattsus

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:13 AM

If we had a ranking system a la Starcraft, it would be great. Though, I think, this requires large amounts of players to work properly.

#13 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:17 AM

View PostGattsus, on 06 December 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

If we had a ranking system a la Starcraft, it would be great. Though, I think, this requires large amounts of players to work properly.

You get 12. And no matter how you rank it, Attrition ruins any hope of balance. As soon as My team can put two on one odds against one of your team, The favor becomes mine. Cause once you die, We can now go three on one. then four on one. It gets easier and easier to roll once the momentum start one way.

#14 -Natural Selection-

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:18 AM

Those off matches are going to happen from time to time no matter the MM. When a team gets out of shape and the other picks up on it, it will be monopolized on. And it does not take much for it to happen either..

Assaults get left behind, flanking lance gets noticed and picked off, lrm heavy against fast brawlers, better position, and so on. And when a team gets 3 or 4 ahead early the bloodlust sets in and people start getting kill/damage hungry for the board.

tldr; its going to happen no matter how teams are matched.

#15 Duke Nedo

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:19 AM

I actually think the MM offsets Elo a bit to be able to predict the outcome, in order to know if it should award Elo or not. If Elo is perfect, prediction will be impossible, thus unnecessary... and from what I have read, Elo uses prediction of result to award Elo, thus it "needs" imperfect matchmaking to work.

If this is anywhere near the truth the really must scrap the whole prediction thing and just make sure average elo is within reasonable limits and then count elo for every match. Hope I am wrong, but something is seriously wrong with the frequency of streaks we are getting in the solo queue.

#16 o0Marduk0o

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:32 AM

View Post8100d 5p4tt3r, on 06 December 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

My point is that the poor matching of "ELO" as well as taking three 4 man, or a mix of PUG/4man against a 8+ man team has to stop.

Quite often multiple 4 man beat bigger groups. You can hardly organize a defense against coordinated pushes from different directions. Furthermore there are a lot big casual groups, which are killed by coordinated small groups. Having 8+ players from one clan on one side means nothing. It all depends on the experience of those small groups. The best groups win the match.

#17 Tarogato

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:35 AM

@OP: 12/1 and 12/2 matches are no indication of how even the teams are balanced, it's simply result of the style of battle that MWO has become. Usually if you catch only one or two mechs in a bad position, you can usually pin and kill them, and now you've started a snowball that can grow to twelve kills because now the enemy is down two mechs plus some morale. If your team scores a pair of early kills, it usually raises morale and the other players on that team tend to play better.


View PostSandpit, on 06 December 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

You drop into a game on teams that have similar Elos
Last I checked this was untrue. Let's say 1200 is avg elo. Match maker doesn't do this:

team A : team B
1222 : 1188
1200 : 1200
1150 : 1250
1205 : 1195
1180 : 1220
1130 : 1270

That's where it puts together an entire match where everybody is a similar elo.
Instead, it does this:

team A : team B
_900 : _900
_700 : _700
1800 : 1800
1300 : 1300
2100 : 2100
_800 : _800

Where both teams have the same average elo, but there's a WIDE variety of elos represented, so it comes down to who has the worst players to get picked off by the best players.

I could be wrong on that, but that's what I've read multiple times and from personal experience, I play pugs with Lords on the same team as me and also complete noobs that don't press R, play 3PV, or lock LRMs on the very same team. So there is definitely an elo disparity, and I think it ruins any attempt at creating "even" matches.

Edited by Tarogato, 06 December 2014 - 04:42 AM.


#18 generalazure

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 04:36 AM

Elo's algorithm was never meant to deal with random groups of players, if I remember correctly. It works in 1on1 or for static groups, because then average group score is pretty much exactly the same as the score of individual players... but the constant team mixing just screws it up.

Edited by generalazure, 06 December 2014 - 04:37 AM.


#19 Mawai

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 05:15 AM

Several points to make ... though some have been made already

1) Matchmaker tries to balance BOTH individual and average Elo /.side ... there are typically not wide variations in Elo except when the matchmaker has to deal with someone from one of the extremes ... i.e. there are far fewer 2600 players than 1400 (or whatever the median of the distribution is ... distribution usually looks like a bell) ... when a match is seeded with someone with an extreme Elo then the odds of having to release the constraints to get enough players in each mech weight class go up a lot. There are several posts floating around where the devs have mentioned working on minimizing the deviation or spread of Elo on teams.

2) As almost everyone has said ... the matchmaker is not at fault for folks spreading out, not working as a team, or constantly using the same bad tactics.

-Peeking around obstacles or ridges when there is a large group of opponents on the other side is just bad game play. You might get in one shot but the opponents get in one each ... and you end up with a losing exchange. Too many losing exchanges and your team loses and you die. Entrances to the crater on mordor when the opponents already hold the crater are prime examples.

- Mechs that split off from the main group may get lucky when flanking but USUALLY since there is no communication the few mechs flanking end up in a 4:2, 5:3, 8:3 fight against the opponents and die uselessly (they may get a kill and do decent damage but they are dead while the opponents aren't ... any numerical advantage can (but not always will) lead to a win.

- Even when staying in a group ... people often fire in different directions at different opponents ... especially if the group is stationary and opponents come from multiple directions. This is why the moving blob is such an effective tactic ... folks tend to focus fire in front at the opponents they run across AND they usually have a numerical advantage when they do so ... the only time this fails is when they run into the opposing team in an entrenched position ... like driving into the crater in Mordor, the cave on forest colony or any other terrain that limits the ability of the attacker to effectively fire.

---------

So what it comes down to is this ...

Without voice coms the best (lowest common denominator) tactic to more consistently win is ...

STAY TOGETHER, FOCUS FIRE and KEEP MOVING

Most stomps I see are one team doing the above while the other has folks doing their own thing ...

------

Anyway, the bottom line is that in most cases the issue is the players and not the matchmaker ... (and honestly without the data which we don't have ... it is impossible to tell the difference ... was the first guy to die just bad or unlucky or made a mistake?)


... and if a player is consistently the last player standing then it is probably not great tactics but not being in the right place at the right time to turn the tide since if they were "sticking together and using focused fire" their odds of dying earlier go up quite a bit but then so do the odds of winning ... since they would be in the right place to help stop a steam roll.

Edited by Mawai, 06 December 2014 - 05:16 AM.


#20 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 05:16 AM

View PostArkmaus, on 06 December 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

WoT doesn't use WR.

If it did, I wouldn't have 35 match win streaks. Lol



Yeah, and along the way, you meet nice lengthy loss streaks for some unexplained reason. That, or your win rate is already right around the goal of keeping you at 50%, so there is no need to stack your deck.





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