140 replies to this topic

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Dennis de Koning, on 09 December 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Regarding the non-customizable colours for the Faction Camo Specs.
These colours are locked because they are specific to the corresponding house.
Every Faction has very specific colours that represent it. To make them changeable would allow say Ghost Bear, for example, to sport Jade Falcon colours.
Not only would this be confusing, but it would be a misrepresentation of ones Faction and allegiance.
We did include one colour channel (albeit small) that can be modified for the purpose of indicating ones unit.

The colours are, by design, meant to be static and represent your Faction as much as the pattern does.
Once owned, they can also be used to tint other camo specs, unifying them with your Faction as well.

I hope this clears up our reasoning behind this decision.

Oh man, now I am annoyed. I am sorry, but that is some incredible bullshit for a response.

Do the IS Houses have distinct colors used to identify them?
- Yes, of course (Where is Marik without Purple, for example.)

Now, are there colors to identify with an entire Clan?
- Not really.
Every Clan Galaxy has a different color profile and pattern.

I am going to list sources here, and unless if you can counter with better sources, the argument you just provided is 100% irrelevant. Also, what is stopping a Ghost Bear from sporting the Falcon pattern as it is anyway?

To use Clan Wolf as an example:
The color most identifiable with Wolf is gray, the default color to use when not using a designated scheme. Brown, tan, and silver are colors also usually attributed to them.

Alpha Galaxy: Forest green, Tan/gold trimming, http://camospecs.com/Unit.asp?ID=575
Beta: Tan over gray http://camospecs.com/Unit.asp?ID=576
Gamma: Green over brown
Delta: Brown over gray, with black accents
Theta: Various browns with white arms
Iota: Gray with red accents
Kappa: Light gray, accents tan and dark gray
Tau: Khaki, accents gray and red
Omega: Flat Gray
Golden Keshik: Gray, blue-gray trim and gold accents
In the case of my unit, which is a fictional piece of Clan Wolf, our colors are black and deep gray with red and gold highlights.

Please tell me, how you identified green as a representative color for Wolf? Green paint is used in two of the Wolf Galaxies. How does that represent the entire Clan? In the case of Jade Falcon, obviously green fits exceptionally well. Not in Wolf. This same trend can be said for IS Houses. How many Marik units have combat paint in their iconic purple? Almost exclusively their militia units, and not many others: http://camospecs.com/Faction.asp?ID=13
As most of the players here are identifying with particular units (many of which have schemes far from the iconic colors of said faction), and not the faction itself, this is going to be problematic. The colors you selected are NOT going to help players identify with their faction. In fact, it will cause alienation.

Can the majority of Clan Wolf units get attached to the pattern you created? Some may choose to use it, but likely ONLY if they can change the colors to represent their particular unit.

Lastly, but most importantly. NOWHERE on the order page did it mention that the patterns would be locked to the set colors. Considering in previous packs the bonus camo content has been customizable, how were your customers supposed to know that they would not be able to take these patterns and make them their own? The answer: they were not. This is essentially false advertising. As a customer who has sunk $580 into this game because of how much I love Mechwarrior, I feel cheated for the $120 I put into this pack. I literally only bought the Man 'o war Package because I wanted the bonus patterns and colors to use on the Mad Dog and Hellbringer. But now, in order to bring them into the color scheme of my unit, I cannot use the patterns intended to unify units for CW, or else sacrifice the color identities of the Black Wolves.

Edit: I have now heard that the Prime variants were also supposed to be able to accept the clan patterns? Not sure if that is correct or not.
Also, the Wolf Green is EXACTLY the same as the Default (green) color. That is... a little underwhelming... at best.

Edited by Alaric Wolf Kerensky, 16 December 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[FETTY WAP]

I think we could have some really cool designs if the camo were unlocked. It would bring a more unique feel, rather than everyone just sporting the same 4 designs with little variation..

[Verkhne]

Well locking colours to faction patterns was certainly not explicated in the offering. Clan Wave 2 has been very mediocre and this is a huge strike against it . I t smacks of false advertising, when have we even seen colour-locked patterns before??

Smoke Jaguar pattern with various colours would have been nice. Come on PGI get it RIGHT! thank-you

[101011]

Dennis de Koning, on 09 December 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Regarding the non-customizable colours for the Faction Camo Specs.
These colours are locked because they are specific to the corresponding house.
Every Faction has very specific colours that represent it. To make them changeable would allow say Ghost Bear, for example, to sport Jade Falcon colours.
Not only would this be confusing, but it would be a misrepresentation of ones Faction and allegiance.
We did include one colour channel (albeit small) that can be modified for the purpose of indicating ones unit.

The colours are, by design, meant to be static and represent your Faction as much as the pattern does.
Once owned, they can also be used to tint other camo specs, unifying them with your Faction as well.

I hope this clears up our reasoning behind this decision.

I chose my faction content under the assumption that I would be able to customize the patterns. While I do appreciate the pack (really, I do), my unit's colors utilize black, blue, and tertiary white. My Ghost Bear camo does not, in fact, represent my unit. I think that it should be left to the units and the consumers to determine what they use their patterns for. Please reconsider your decision.

[IlmariArtificer]

I think this is as good as place as any for my questions.

When Resistance mechs are in, will we get the Faction Camo/skin for those mechs? Will that include the standard non-loyalty King Crab? Faction Camo is displayed on the King Crab on Resistance page.

[AxZul Torbin]

I have to agree. Atleast give us back the camo options to use with our faction colors. Finding this very disapointing. Expected to come home from work and be able to paint my mechs in my faction colors not be locked into 1 faction camo option. I say 1 as I got all 4 but my mechs are painted to best represent clan Jade Falcon. Was looking forward to finally have Jade Falcon colors to use on which ever camo scheme I chose. I like the new came schemes and would like to keep them but also have the option to use the other camo schemes with the new colors.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Going forward, if this policy isn't changed so we can change the colours preferably for both Clan and Resistance, then I will not be buying the Zeus Resistance pack after all as planned in January. Anyone else in the same mindset as me? Betting I'm not alone on this. Screw colour locked camos.

EDIT I forgot to mention, had this not been falsely represented in the faction content info and FAQ I probably would've gone a la carte rather than getting 6 wasted mechs to have the Hellbringer, saving myself money and aggravation.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 09 December 2014 - 06:24 PM.

[Prussian Havoc]

Dennis de Koning, on 09 December 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Regarding the non-customizable colours for the Faction Camo Specs.
These colours are locked because they are specific to the corresponding house.
Every Faction has very specific colours that represent it. To make them changeable would allow say Ghost Bear, for example, to sport Jade Falcon colours.
Not only would this be confusing, but it would be a misrepresentation of ones Faction and allegiance.
We did include one colour channel (albeit small) that can be modified for the purpose of indicating ones unit.

The colours are, by design, meant to be static and represent your Faction as much as the pattern does.
Once owned, they can also be used to tint other camo specs, unifying them with your Faction as well.

I hope this clears up our reasoning behind this decision.

Excellent and acceptable rational - well done again, PGI!

Uniformity.

With CW set to kick off I would like to second PGI's decision to enforce some visual solidarity among the Factions. And I applaud the fact that Inner Sphere patterns will be similarly constrained to only a small patch of one color to differentiate the Inner Sphere factions.

Since the VAST majority of CW drops will be mixed group and solo drops rather than the exclusive and slightly biased toward "Elitism" 12-man Teams, it is ONLY RIGHT AND PROPER that if a Clan-gamer decides to drop in "Faction" pattern that there be only a minuscule strip or two of difference between them.


Let us all remember that these are "FACTION" patterns. Perhaps in the future we will have funded PGI to the point where they have the resources to hire another dozen content artists and we can have a pattern for every Unit which cares enough to submit a request.

But that isn't today... way too many forum fiends begrudge PGI even the moderate monetization now in MWO.

If we as a forum community hadn't worked for more than two years and so incredibly hard to cut the legs out from PGI financially by (in aggregate) being so caustically vitriolic against simple "take it or leave it" monetization, maybe PGI would have had the wherewithal to have gotten us this close to CW months if not a year ago.

And for all those who think. I am being too judgmental about segments of our community, kindly remember the invasively non-constructive, well-nigh destructive forum themes after the Gold Invasion Mechs were announced.

Ain't nothing like a forum feeding frenzy to destroy the thing we all enjoy. Self-destructive but unavoidable I know.


In the future, let's not begrudge PGI's modest monetization efforts. "Take it or leave it" it's business and not personal.

It is in ALL our interests to have PGI prosper.

[AxZul Torbin]

my complaint isnt that only produced 1 faction camo. its that they took away all camo options that have exsisted and replaced them with just 1 option. or I guess excuse me 2 as you can take the base or the faction camo. all the previous options are gone. Limit my color choice but not my camo option I guess Im saying.

Edited by AxZul Torbin, 09 December 2014 - 06:27 PM.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

Personally, I'm split on this.

I'm a Ghost Bear player. However, I named my Hellbringer Prime (I) Rooster, and I intended to paint it in the Jade Falcon pattern, but with a more Ghost Bear-esque scheme of black, gray and blue. The fact that I cannot do this is annoying.

That being said, Prussian Havoc also has a good point - the Clans were never about visual differences, they were about conformity to a whole - in this case, a single pattern and color palette. We know that there is LP-exclusive patterns coming up, which will doubtlessly cover other Galaxies from your chosen clan. As much as it's a royal pain in the backside being unable to repaint the factional patterns, it makes sense.

I'm still fine with having chosen all four packs. I get twelve colors, a wider array of warhorns. I'll also be glad when my Resistance pack arrives, because that gives me fifteen colors and more warhorns. And I will still repaint some of my mechs into the colors and patterns of another Clan - I can always explain it as isorla, or trophies of war for you dezgra IS players. But, I will be far happier if I do get the ability to repaint a major total of the mech, not just a small portion of it.

[Dennis de Koning]

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 09 December 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Oh man, now I am annoyed. I am sorry, but that is some incredible bullshit for a response.

Do the IS Houses have distinct colors used to identify them?
- Yes, of course (Where is Marik without Purple, for example.)

Now, are there colors to identify with an entire Clan?
- Not really.
Every Clan Galaxy has a different color profile and pattern.

I am going to list sources here, and unless if you can counter with better sources, the argument you just provided is 100% irrelevant. Also, what is stopping a Ghost Bear from sporting the Falcon pattern as it is anyway?

To use Clan Wolf as an example:
The color most identifiable with Wolf is gray, the default color to use when not using a designated scheme. Brown, tan, and silver are colors also usually attributed to them.

Alpha Galaxy: Forest green, Tan/gold trimming, http://camospecs.com/Unit.asp?ID=575
Beta: Tan over gray http://camospecs.com/Unit.asp?ID=576
Gamma: Green over brown
Delta: Brown over gray, with black accents
Theta: Various browns with white arms
Iota: Gray with red accents
Kappa: Light gray, accents tan and dark gray
Tau: Khaki, accents gray and red
Omega: Flat Gray
Golden Keshik: Gray, blue-gray trim and gold accents
In the case of my unit, which is a fictional piece of Clan Wolf, our colors are deep gray, black, with red and gold highlights.

Please tell me, how you identified green as a representative color for Wolf? Green paint is used in two of the Wolf Galaxies. How does that represent the entire Clan? In the case of Jade Falcon, obviously green fits exceptionally well. Not in Wolf. This same trend can be said for IS Houses. How many Marik units have combat paint in their iconic purple? Almost exclusively their militia units, and not many others: http://camospecs.com/Faction.asp?ID=13
As most of the players here are identifying with particular units (many of which have schemes far from the iconic colors of said faction), and not the faction itself, this is going to be problematic. The colors you selected are NOT going to help players identify with their faction. In fact, it will cause alienation.

Can the majority of Clan Wolf units get attached to the pattern you created? Some may choose to use it, but likely ONLY if they can change the colors to represent their particular unit.

Lastly, but most importantly. NOWHERE on the order page did it mention that the patterns would be locked to the set colors. Considering in previous packs the bonus camo content has been customizable, how were your customers supposed to know that they would not be able to take these patterns and make them their own? The answer: they were not. This is essentially false advertising. As a customer who has sunk $580 into this game because of how much I love Mechwarrior, I feel cheated for the $120 I put into this pack. I literally only bought the Man 'o war Package because I wanted the bonus patterns and colors to use on the Mad Dog and Hellbringer. But now, in order to bring them into the color scheme of my unit, I cannot use the patterns intended to unify units for CW, or else sacrifice the color identities of the Black Wolves.

Edit: I have now heard that the Prime variants were also supposed to be able to accept the clan patterns? Not sure if that is correct or not.
Also, the Wolf Green is EXACTLY the same as the Default (green) color. That is... a little underwhelming... at best.

Alaric,
Having a tantrum will get you no where.
Claiming my response was bullshit is a little out of line don'tcha think?
I explained our reasoning behind the decision clearly and honestly; if you don't agree, that's ok, you have a right to your opinion.
But you have to admit, we've tried our best to expeditiously address concerns and consider requests you all may have.

I am completely open to modifying the option to customize the colours if the majority of users desire it.
Stating your point clearly, with tact, decorum and well thought-out reasoning will receive a better response than that of poor etiquette.

Considering yours (and others) concerns though, our schedule is quite full so any meaningful changes, if they are to be made, would have to wait until early next year.

[Nightshade24]

I find no problem having a faction colour for faction skins. It is a free skin. Don't like it then go buy yourself a different one with MC. You will always have your Faction insignias/ logo/ icons and other decals that are coming soon to make your mech feel more at home with your specific galaxy/ faction/ corps / what have you.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

Dennis de Koning, on 09 December 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

I am completely open to modifying the option to customize the colours if the majority of users desire it.
Stating your point clearly, with tact, decorum and well thought-out reasoning will receive a better response than that of poor etiquette.

Considering yours (and others) concerns though, our schedule is quite full so any meaningful changes, if they are to be made, would have to wait until early next year.

Which is totally understandable. Denis, you and the rest of PGI should be commended in your rapid advance from the rather chaotic IGP period to this. Also, can I point out that there's only three weeks left in December? Aside for quick coding changes, I would expect that Community Warfare would have sucked up the remaining pre-Christmas programming time, so the final area for this is early next year.

I would suggest a poll to gather player's opinions, advertised on the patcher sidebar and main page, but that's just my opinion.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

Dennis de Koning, on 09 December 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Alaric,
Having a tantrum will get you no where.
Claiming my response was bullshit is a little out of line don'tcha think?
I explained our reasoning behind the decision clearly and honestly; if you don't agree, that's ok, you have a right to your opinion.
But you have to admit, we've tried our best to expeditiously address concerns and consider requests you all may have.

I am completely open to modifying the option to customize the colours if the majority of users desire it.
Stating your point clearly, with tact, decorum and well thought-out reasoning will receive a better response than that of poor etiquette.

Considering yours (and others) concerns though, our schedule is quite full so any meaningful changes, if they are to be made, would have to wait until early next year.

Yes please. I'd love it if you could reconsider this option when time avails. There are 20 clans not just the Core game 4 and some of us love (god knows why but we do) some of the lesser known ones. Clan Snow Raven for me. It would be nice to be able to make up a Snow Ravens Grey/Blue or Grey/Purple scheme using the new faction patterns.



If a jnr programmer has been bad and you need to punish him or her, they could always make a Murder Of Crows warhorn....


And thanks on behalf of the gaming community for monitoring and replying to the forum so fast and so clearly.

Edited by Keira RAVEN McKenna, 09 December 2014 - 06:58 PM.

[AxZul Torbin]

Nightshade your not understanding. You cant. Its the only option.default, polygon or the faction camo. the other camos options that where purchasable with MC are now gone.

Edited by AxZul Torbin, 09 December 2014 - 07:03 PM.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

no... I dont think they are.... least not on my screen

[RustyBolts]

Dennis de Koning, on 09 December 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Alaric,
Having a tantrum will get you no where.
Claiming my response was bullshit is a little out of line don'tcha think?
I explained our reasoning behind the decision clearly and honestly; if you don't agree, that's ok, you have a right to your opinion.
But you have to admit, we've tried our best to expeditiously address concerns and consider requests you all may have.

I am completely open to modifying the option to customize the colours if the majority of users desire it.
Stating your point clearly, with tact, decorum and well thought-out reasoning will receive a better response than that of poor etiquette.

Considering yours (and others) concerns though, our schedule is quite full so any meaningful changes, if they are to be made, would have to wait until early next year.

Thanks for the response. My issue is that this reasoning was not provided at any time prior to your post. If this was your stance then we should have known prior to making our selections.

I made my choices on the patterns and being able to change the colors. However, had I known that the colors were locked I would have chosen differently. I was going to run my units colors on the Smoke Jag and Ghost Bear camo. Now I cannot run any of the patterns because the colors are locked to non unit colors. My units rules are to run unit colors in CW or when dropping as a group. Please reconsider this as I am sure there are others in the same situation.

[Zordicron]

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 09 December 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Oh man, now I am annoyed. I am sorry, but that is some incredible bullshit for a response.

Dennis de Koning, on 09 December 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Alaric,
Having a tantrum will get you no where.

Alaric, do you maybe see where you went wrong here? I actually thought eh, most, of your post was thoughtful. However, when some one tries to explain a thought process, and then you look at them and say "you suck" err, probably not going to result in a solid discussion thereafter.


As a side note, I cast my vote on unlocking the colors for the camo. I see the idea you guys had about not wanting to cross-camo houses/clans, however, there is already nothing stopping anyone from using a custom camo with the wrong colors for any faction. I think a lot of people will use the default as an easy/cool means of ID for the CW stuff, but a lot of "100%" group/unit players will want to be able to pick a camo, AND a color for ID. Even if it is the same colors, but a different camo, or the reverse.

I think most players will also be 100% fine with it being on the to do list for late winter, certainly not a big enough issue to push it in front of other bigger projects.

[AxZul Torbin]

If you pick a clan wave 2 mech you are limited to 3 camo choices (default, poly or faction) the other choices are gone Keira.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

Polygon is bugged on Hellbringer and Gargoyle.