81 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Odanan, on 19 December 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

I'm talking about how the game works.
In CW, you get rewards for winning, not losing. It would not be productive for players to lose on purpose.

but this is not restricted to mercs, that counts for everyone.

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

Moderator Call 2!

Already called for my thread here to be deleted.

Please delete this thread as it only have served to increase the influence of saboteurs.

[Bongfu]

While I agree with the substance of the OP. The reality is that until PGI decides to put in all the Clan factions, there will always be "mercs" among the Clans. People who represent smaller Clan powers or even units like the Wolf's Dragoons and Minnesota Tribe.

To reverse this would mean that, once again, the big four had the advantage in all manners of CW.

[Scratx]

Bongfu, on 19 December 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

While I agree with the substance of the OP. The reality is that until PGI decides to put in all the Clan factions, there will always be "mercs" among the Clans. People who represent smaller Clan powers or even units like the Wolf's Dragoons and Minnesota Tribe.

To reverse this would mean that, once again, the big four had the advantage in all manners of CW.

Not to mention a lot of people don't particularly care about any specific faction and happen to have both IS and Clan hardware they wish to play with in CW at some point.

You know, the mechs a lot of us paid for?

Don't look at it strictly from the POV of hardcore RP'ers. This is a game, after all. If you are worried about PUG clanners attacking other Clans, all you really need to do now is focus your attacks on the IS and then smile as the PUGs will follow... because that's where everyone is playing.

[Kadix]

Aff, though agreeing with a free birth loving Clan like the Wolves makes me feel dirty.

[Pz_DC]

Agree with TS. Mercs should not be among clans. As well those dishonorable barbarians should be pushed away from Kurita space...

P.S. need more effective unit creation, there are "alot of lore" behind all factions and its stupid to ignore it.

Edited by MGA121285, 19 December 2014 - 08:59 AM.

[KharnZor]

I've recently advocated with my unit to stay with the clans until the population stabilizes and expands but after reading this thread i doubt that'll be happening.

[Tarl Cabot]

Kain Thul, on 17 December 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

The implementation of mercenaries in CW leaves a lot to be desired.

First, the clans did not hire mercenaries. They should be a separate faction in the IS.

The way it is right now they can just flip sides every 7 days but instead of fighting for their faction (IS vs Clans) they can just focus on infighting instead and be nothing but a disruption. This is NOT what mercenaries in battletech are supposed to be.

/ooc

Whether or not any of you like it, PGI approached to MWO was as mercs. Of course, with the 1st rollout of CW, lots of things had to be considered, who would use clan mechs vs is mechs/etc.

1. There is no official COC - the most someone can be is the commander is a unit, non-canon unit.
2. That non-cannon unit decides now decides which side to fight for, Clans or Innersphere
3. Of those two choices, do they sign up for permanent contract or a temp contract? Technically, game-wise all of us are mercs. It is likely the easiest way to get things setup at the onset.
4. One way to think of those who really carry themselves off as mercs would them going through a form of with batchall.

Again, one of the major things to consider is the restriction on how can use which mechs. Eliminate mercs from playing the Clan side with their Clan mechs could have the potential of PGI losing customers.

Basically, regardless of the Battletech history, it is the community that will make or break the game and a few have seen what the community can do when it puts its mind to it. And I am speaking of the communities that were created around the original MPBT, Solaris and 3025 and MWLL. There were MW3/4 but for the most part those were splintered fragments, small communities.

Again, it is we the community that will make with what we are provided, while also providing feedback and helpful directions.

/end ooc

[Alec Braca]

Kain Thul, on 17 December 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

This is exactly the point I was trying to make--merc units can simply act as trolls and sabotage their "employers" swapping at will and never actually advancing the cause of any of the factions that employ them.

So now here we are. We have huge groups of mercs, some even outnumbering the loyalist population of their employers. The loyalist units cannot do anything anymore. The FRR does not have the numbers to hold back 4 fronts from 4 Clans at once. Kurita, I don't even know anymore. Steiner can't deal with 1 Clan front. Liao is existing. FedSuns are poking around Liao and Kurita. The FWL are just poking around at Liao and Steiner because of boredom.

The southern houses cannot move up to the clan front, the northern powers cant get a break, then the Clans are down to a few planets (if not the capital). We all know how this happens. Mercenaries.
1. Mercenaries do not have to pay consequences that are not slaps on the wrist.
2. Why do the Clans field mercs? If you field mercs then you are standing against everything that makes you Clan. You have no clan honor, nothing to back up all of the arrogant clanner talk that we are used to.
3. PGI haves events that SHIFTS the entire merc community back and forth. All it takes though is for one or two merc groups to actually do some damage. Take -MS- for example, they can field what, 6-12 man teams at any given time? We have time zones PGI lol.
When mercs shift, bad stuff happens. The entire theater collapses, contracts broken, agreements broken, and general chaos. I do not blame the mercs for all of it. I blame the people hiring the mercs in the first place. A merc unit that doesn't get paid means everything. If you took out mercs altogether, (and I'm not saying they should) the houses would fare much better.
The mighty armies of thousands of systems and divisions of mechs, aerospace fighters, armor, and infantry mean squat to a large merc unit. The problem is that they control the flow of CW and not the houses/clans.

Edited by Alec Braca, 27 May 2015 - 09:37 PM.

[ArchAngelWC]

Noesis, on 17 December 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

Of course the Clans "never" fought one another:




You made your wolf den now lie in it, you are fractured by previous disagreements with your units, attacking Clansmen left and right, showing your hand openely it seems on the forums with intentions, breaking any agreements with others. Then saying that you were/are gifting planets to Clans then complaining they have been taken, sending out all sorts of mixed messages and poor diplomacy with others and still running around the forums posturing like you own the place.

it is the same for other Clans who seem to be handling the situation better so why is it only the wolves who seem to be whining about their lot? Even the Jags recgonised as a smaller Clan group seems to be handling their own and at least not complaining to the point of wanting the system changed but doing their best with what they are given, my hats off to them.

And from a lore perspective of believing that relations are supposed to be all rosey between the various Clans and that there is no infighting is a poor reflection on how they were from lore, that even assuming that we have or should follow the lore to the letter. Also the Dark Caste from Lore would have clandestine representatives within the Clans themselves who would be capable of influencing the kinds of events described even without any posturing or clandestine events within the Clans themselves. Admittedly it would not be honourable to the council of this kind of behaviour but then I guess history shows that betrayel and other missgivings in the Clans meant this wasn't always followed to the letter.

I think the prize that Clan Wolf from the books has clouded your visions somewhat and thinking that you are entitiled to what Clan Wolf did achieve from this perspective rather than playing what is MWO and making it interesting for everyone else by not having to follow how you think things should turn out.

This pride in your pack might be your undoing. It's warfare, deal with it and respect the alliances and relationships if you want to succeed with your aims, continue to waltz around thinking you own the place and expect things to work a certain way cause the books said so, won't actually help. But I guess you might simply ignore this advice continuing to implode from within and not forming good relations with others and continue to point the finger of blame elsewhere.

Incorrect...I firmly believe all mercenaries in the Clans and really anyone who owns an IS mech or has any loyalty points with any IS faction...should be deposited on Turtle Bay before we nuke it...

Tarl Cabot, on 22 December 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

/ooc

Whether or not any of you like it, PGI approached to MWO was as mercs. Of course, with the 1st rollout of CW, lots of things had to be considered, who would use clan mechs vs is mechs/etc.

1. There is no official COC - the most someone can be is the commander is a unit, non-canon unit.
2. That non-cannon unit decides now decides which side to fight for, Clans or Innersphere
3. Of those two choices, do they sign up for permanent contract or a temp contract? Technically, game-wise all of us are mercs. It is likely the easiest way to get things setup at the onset.
4. One way to think of those who really carry themselves off as mercs would them going through a form of with batchall.

Again, one of the major things to consider is the restriction on how can use which mechs. Eliminate mercs from playing the Clan side with their Clan mechs could have the potential of PGI losing customers.

Basically, regardless of the Battletech history, it is the community that will make or break the game and a few have seen what the community can do when it puts its mind to it. And I am speaking of the communities that were created around the original MPBT, Solaris and 3025 and MWLL. There were MW3/4 but for the most part those were splintered fragments, small communities.

Again, it is we the community that will make with what we are provided, while also providing feedback and helpful directions.

/end ooc

lmao...did you really just call Starlance a small splintered fragment...with its 200k active players yes...so tiny

[Bubblewhip]

ArchAngelWC, on 27 May 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

Incorrect...I firmly believe all mercenaries in the Clans and really anyone who owns an IS mech or has any loyalty points with any IS faction...should be deposited on Turtle Bay before we nuke it...

Kerensky forbid you find the next kai Allard who figures out that fighting for aristocrats and nobility is wrong, and pledges his loyalty to the clans and a firm believer in its way of life.

[ArchAngelWC]

Bubblewhip, on 28 May 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Kerensky forbid you find the next kai Allard who figures out that fighting for aristocrats and nobility is wrong, and pledges his loyalty to the clans and a firm believer in its way of life.

you know how Crusaders pay homage to ilKhan Showers..by killing Wardens and Rasal Rats

Edited by ArchAngelWC, 29 May 2015 - 04:06 AM.

[Polkastein]

I think they should combine all of the clans together into one; you can keep your individual clan names and avatars but become "The Clans". With this, they might even be able to introduce some of the lesser known clans. You would all be one big "happy" family.

[KursedVixen]

CyclonerM, on 17 December 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

We will hear a lot of hate sir, but i agree with your post.

I mean, a Clan Wolf banner does not make you a Wolf, your action and behaviour do.

I fully agree with that statment.

The only time anything even close to clan use mercs was when they were mercs and that was the wolf's dragoons.

[Wolf Clearwater]

First off, you are ALL mercs. PGI created the game with the idea that ALL of the players are mercenaries. You variable length contract choices, but there are NO cannon units.

Second, there are precious few Clan players that behave like Clanners at all. Until I see strict one vs one, zellbrigen at the begining of every match, etc, I am just going to laugh at this post every every day. This perfectly describes the behavior of the majority of Clan players:

Dezgra: This disgrace can come from either refusing orders, panicking in the face of the enemy, or committing dishonorable conduct. It may even come from being roundly defeated by an enemy that itself is considered inferior. This term also refers to the ceremony where a unit is marked and punished. ^{[1][2] [3][4]}
Any unit bearing this name is considered "tainted" and honorable warriors avoid dealings with the unit as much as possible. This can restrict the unit being involved in bids, and, when bid into combat, the actions it can take. Dezgra units are given poor quality replacements and looked down upon by all the Clans.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dezgra

PGI is not going to make it so people cannot play both sides. Why? Many people bought both Clan and IS packages and want to play both. You are just going to have to get over it.
Why do mercenary companies move around? Because it is to their benefit. The higher tier rewards for factions are not nearly as attractive as acquiring all the lower ones first.
Since my Clan is not in the game, and likely will never be, I serve with my merc company and love it.

Edited by Wolf Clearwater, 29 May 2015 - 04:56 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Polkastein, on 29 May 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

I think they should combine all of the clans together into one; you can keep your individual clan names and avatars but become "The Clans". With this, they might even be able to introduce some of the lesser known clans. You would all be one big "happy" family.

Hmm.. Neg.

Wolf Clearwater, on 29 May 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

First off, you are ALL mercs. PGI created the game with the idea that ALL of the players are mercenaries.

CyclonerM, on 17 December 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

I mean, a Clan Wolf banner does not make you a Wolf, your action and behaviour do.

Quote

You variable length contract choices, but there are NO cannon units.

Cannon units? Here there is one!

Spoiler

Or did you mean..?

Quote

You variable length contract choices, but there are NO cannon canon units.

Well, this link disagrees with you. (The Touman is not fully updated yet)
13th Wolf Guards (The Wolf Spiders)
1st Wolf Guardians (The Night Runners)
101st Battle Cluster , now 2nd Wolf Guards Grenadiers
1st Wolf Hussars

While "Clan Wolf International" may not be canon, our Alpha, Omega and Kappa Galaxies' units are, even if they are from a later point in the timeline.

On a more general note, you can find in this thread's first post other canon Clan Wolf units (again, that thread is not fully updated too..).


And if i am pretty sure Clan Ghost Bear International is also made up of canon units from Alpha, Beta and Theta Galaxies.

Quote

Second, there are precious few Clan players that behave like Clanners at all. Until I see strict one vs one, zellbrigen at the begining of every match, etc, I am just going to laugh at this post every every day. This perfectly describes the behavior of the majority of Clan players:

Mostly wrong. After the first months of the invasion, sooner or later all the invading Clans stopped following honor rules in combat, realizing that almost no IS units would follow them. How do Clan commanders fight honorless/dezgra enemies, such as bandits? Destroying them with every means at their disposal. I would absolutely enjoy fighting 1vs1, but vs pugs it is simply impossible. However, if you meet us with a 12men, you may ask us to fight 1vs1, and just like in lore, some commanders may agree, while others would refuse, considering the IS units not worthy of batchalls.. Or just expecting to be tricked.

Quote

Why do mercenary companies move around? Because it is to their benefit. The higher tier rewards for factions are not nearly as attractive as acquiring all the lower ones first.

The "Loyalty" rewards encouranging the opposite of what they should is PGI's fault, but here we are discussing about mercs fighting for Clans, not just faction-hopping. It is actually common enough that defeated merc units sign with their previous' employer's enemy House.

Quote

Since my Clan is not in the game, and likely will never be, I serve with my merc company and love it.

I am glad you are enjoying fighting for your merc unit.

Edited by CyclonerM, 29 May 2015 - 05:34 AM.

[Wolf Clearwater]

CyclonerM, on 29 May 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Well, this link disagrees with you. (The Touman is not fully updated yet)
13th Wolf Guards (The Wolf Spiders)
1st Wolf Guardians (The Night Runners)
101st Battle Cluster , now 2nd Wolf Guards Grenadiers
1st Wolf Hussars

While "Clan Wolf International" may not be canon, our Alpha, Omega and Kappa Galaxies' units are, even if they are from a later point in the timeline.

On a more general note, you can find in this thread's first post other canon Clan Wolf units (again, that thread is not fully updated too..).


And if i am pretty sure Clan Ghost Bear International is also made up of canon units from Alpha, Beta and Theta Galaxies.

Just because PGI has not enforced the rules about no cannon units or names, doesn't meant that they won't eventually. Or they may let sleeping dogs lie. *shrug* So, I completely disagree with you on this. So, you named your merc unit after a canon unit.

CyclonerM, on 29 May 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Mostly wrong. After the first months years of the invasion, sooner or later all the invading Clans stopped following honor rules in combat, realizing that almost no IS units would follow them. How do Clan commanders fight honorless/dezgra enemies, such as bandits? Destroying them with every means at their disposal. I would absolutely enjoy fighting 1vs1, but vs pugs it is simply impossible. However, if you meet us with a 12men, you may ask us to fight 1vs1, and just like in lore, some commanders may agree, while others would refuse, considering the IS units not worthy of batchalls.. Or just expecting to be tricked.

Fixed that for ya.

Funny that more IS units than clan units batchall. Just saying.
But the point remains, don't expect to be taken seriously when a huge portion of the Clans behave dezgra and like trolls.
I am not saying that IS players are innocent here.
In fact, most of the best behaved (and generally fun) players I have seen are FRR, Clan Smoke Jaguar, and the Ghost Bears, in that order.

[CyclonerM]

Wolf Clearwater, on 29 May 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

Just because PGI has not enforced the rules about no cannon units or names, doesn't meant that they won't eventually. Or they may let sleeping dogs lie. *shrug* So, I completely disagree with you on this. So, you named your merc unit after a canon unit.

Technically, they have. CW International, CGB International, etc. are all names that comply with the naming rules they set when the unit module first released. On the other hand, they do not have power on how we call and organize ourselves, either in the forums or in our own websites; their rules only applied to the unit name your leader set when creating the unit trough the in-game system

Semantics, eh? Then, i will just re-quote myself again.

Quote

I mean, a Clan Wolf banner does not make you a Wolf, your actions and behaviour do.

Quote

Fixed that for ya.

Aside from the fact that some Clans (like Wolf) have a more liberal interpretation of Zellbrigen, even when fighting against other Clans, i think that most Clans had stopped following it by the renewal of the invasion in 3052 (pretty sure the Jade Falcons were the last to abandone it).

Quote

Funny that more IS units than clan units batchall. Just saying.
But the point remains, don't expect to be taken seriously when a huge portion of the Clans behave dezgra and like trolls.
I am not saying that IS players are innocent here.
In fact, most of the best behaved (and generally fun) players I have seen are FRR, Clan Smoke Jaguar, and the Ghost Bears, in that order.

I have pretty much never seen, in all my drops, an IS unit challenging us to honorable combat, stating the identity, size and strenght of their forces, asking for our info and bidding only what they thought would be just enough to defeat us.

Did you? Really?

Btw, i fear we are talking about different things. What do you mean by "Dezgra and trolls"? So far, i have seen very little evidence of CW units being consistently more trollish than other faction.. Especially Kurita

I have also met very few actually honorable IS warriors. If they were, i would have a chance to issue a challenge during a public or CW game and actually expect the challenged warrior to come and fight me and the other Spheroids to stay out of the fight. This is not quite the case, neither in pub games, nor in CW vs units..

On the other hand, a few days ago we were about to win a CW battle when i asked our drop commander and Starmate to let me fight alone in my Gargoyle Prime vs the last Quickdraw about to drop from their Leopard. I was granted the request and he ordered everyone to not fire on the last enemy, even if he was firing at them, to let me try to fight with him.

Instead of trying to give a more interesting end to the match, he chose to ignore me firing on him and attack my Clan mates standing still..

[Bubblewhip]

ArchAngelWC, on 29 May 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

you know how Crusaders pay homage to ilKhan Showers..by killing Wardens and Rasal Rats

Even Jade Falcon is less short sighted than that. Would you like to settle this in the circle of equals? Or is the risk of facing a freeborn former Federation Suns mercenary too much for you to handle?

[KuroNyra]

CyclonerM, on 29 May 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

Instead of trying to give a more interesting end to the match, he chose to ignore me firing on him and attack my Clan mates standing still..

There should be stuff done to make Zellbrigen attractive for both side.
If a duel is created, Huge increase of reward for both of them and penalty for someone who is disrupting the duel.