403 replies to this topic

[LordSkyKnight]

Seph MacLeod, on 25 March 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

Have you ever thought the only reason a lot of people DO use the two clan mechs mechs a lot is because no others in clan side are worth using? Or maybe that some people just feel more comfortable in some mechs than others? I know I'd like to be able to pilot .. oh say.. the Kitfox again, It wouldn't have to be a top tier mech.. just a somewhat good one.

You've already said you're fine with using mediocre clan mechs. The kit fox is arguably the best clan light right now, why wouldn't you use it as tonnage filler next to your Mad Dog?

Seph MacLeod, on 25 March 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

The Summoner was a HUGE thing to come along and is a large favorite of a good number of Jade Falcon fanboys, but no one uses it cause its a POS and no one could get it to work. So maybe if you make the POS not so S, then no one will feel compelled to load their drop deck with TW and SC, when they can finally pilot what they want and still be ok. maybe? no? Just Nerf the Clan mechs instead of making it where the two can use different tactics? Let's not encourage say .. aHunch back to brawl with a Storm Crow? (A losing game for the Crow) no? ok then

I'll do the math on the AC20 hunch vs the stormcrow later. Too late at night for me to do it now. The SRM/med laser crow is a better short range mech than anything the IS can field, with the possible exception of the GRF-3M. Maybe I'll do a comparison between those two.

Seph MacLeod, on 25 March 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

Cause you know.. while you want to fix two mechs, lets screw over the entire clan side by making their side ok to unplayable, That will be amazing. MEAN WHILE . lets totally bag on the fact the "arctic cheeter" is gonna come down the pipe.... sometime.. and upset the balance.. sometime.. but let's just give the IS the advantage in lights until that happens..as well as Assaults, but those Mid and heavy mechs will be even steven.. *Shakes head*

First off, the firestarter needs a nerf almost as badly as the clan mechs do, but the main issue with light mechs remains the problems the game engine has with keeping up with extremely fast mechs. And yes, if everyone had mechs that were 'ok' we'd be at a fantastic place in terms of game balance. Again, it would take a lot of nerfing to get the storm or the timber to get to "ok", much less get them down to "unplayable."

[Lando Kufahl]

Due to IS Mechs being cheaper there are lot more new players dropping on the IS side. There wont be as much team play and aggression on the IS side because of this.

My unit drop with the Smoke Jags as our clan faction every other 2 weeks and they seem to be organised with a good TS and regularly drop attacks.

The IS pug defence drops can be harsh. I know how bad it can be!

[Yokaiko]

YCSLiesmith, on 25 March 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

see that sort of thing isn't actually relevant at all in terms of what mech is OP

Its relevant as WHY the mechs are said as op, remember I'm Remnant, we float both sides.

There are two mechs I think of as OP and two that are borderline, they all happen to be IS.

As it carries though, holy CRAP the level of play between a House pug and a CSJ pug is rather staggering, to the point that I was on an odd schedule and CSJ were beating a certain Kurita unit 4/5 times when they were 10 or better with pure pugs.

That aint the mechs, that is some fool deciding that three full waves of LRM was a good idea, and running with it, repeatedly.

Lando Kufahl, on 25 March 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Due to IS Mechs being cheaper there are lot more new players dropping on the IS side. There wont be as much team play and aggression on the IS side because of this.

Common fallacy, I just dropped 30 mil on my resistance three mechs, I haven't dealt with the Zeus yet, IS mechs are more organic, you can build them up, but they are very comparable in price once you get into real builds.

Clan mechs are more UPFRONT, they aren't more expensive once they are "good"

Edited by Yokaiko, 25 March 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

LordSkyKnight, on 25 March 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

I'll work on the math for snipers next if you'd like. Pick two builds you'd like me to compare and I'll do another analysis. Make sure they represent the top tier in long range builds. I've already done the math for two of the best mid range builds as well. If you'd like me to use a different IS midrange or the stormcrow then I can. I'll also do something similar for short range if you'd like. You asked for mathematical proof and I gave it to you. Let me know where I can point next.

I can also point to the fact that the top tier tournament teams use nothing but clan mechs in tournaments. If that doesn't prove clan mechs are too powerful I don't know what does.

I will have to look up top-tier builds, since I usually play whatever works best for me and get back to you. But really you should compare to Timber Wolf to a mech that is not 10 tons lighter, but unfortunately we do not have any good IS 75 tonners yet (Black Knight please!).

[Georgegad]

IronClaws, on 23 March 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

All of wave 1 is available for Cbills and wave 2 will be soon.

Nobody has said the old models would not eventually move down to Cbills.
They will.

It does not make any change to my point, nobody would buy them for cash if they were not a little bit better.

Ed Steele, on 23 March 2015 - 11:07 PM, said:

Clan tech is supposed to be better, but it doesn't stop me from blowing away Clan mechs!

The smoldering remains of their over priced tech is a monument to your skill.

David Sumner, on 24 March 2015 - 12:51 AM, said:

I'm getting to the point of saying "screw the mech balancing" you'll never get it perfect.
Get it close, use logistics to tweak the balance for the rest, and stop pretending that Elo makes balancing W/L reasonable.

Just give us more missions that don't need to be balanced in and of themselves.

i.e. not "capture each others bases" or "kill all of each other" or "capture all the same resource points"

How about "kill the enemy company commander" while they get "complete standard patrol"

Love that.
Pretending like it is ever going to be balanced is a little bit unlikeley.

More mission oriented maps is always going to be a good idea though.

Some like the "Guard the convoy" missions from back in the day.
A nice big dropship target so we dont have to fight each other, the attacker just needs to survive long enough to put X amount of damage on it.

I believe my Kurita homeworld needs a 1200 ton giant mech, that all the teams mech chassis slot into like turrets. If it looked a little like Voltron, i am OK with that.

Other groups should have cool unique homeworlds too, even though they obviously wont be as cool as a giant 1200ton mech killing you with a sword.

[David Sumner]

Seph MacLeod, on 25 March 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

Yes yes yes yes and yes, .. believe me, I'd love to be able to slap around some Jade Falcons in a bidding warfare, IS gets 12 mans? Clan mechs can bid down below that..

LET IT HAPPEN

also I do completely agree with you that we need to have different objectives to fight over.. and some no objective other than "kill the enemy" in rolling farm lands and the like.

Where are the attacks on the mech armories? where are the supply line cuts? where are the ambushes and standard patrols? Where are the VIP escorts? .. actually.. ferk VIP Escorts, those missions are bull sh-it

Awwww, but I hid it as "kill the company commander" thought I'd get it past you.

[David Sumner]

LordSkyKnight, on 25 March 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

.....
. The drive to win will outweigh any impact these mechanics have for everyone but the most diehard lore fans. Look at -MS-. would they bid anything less than their best? No. not a chance in hell. They're the biggest group in the game. For the game to survive it needs to be balanced.

Lots of great points.
Question:

Can we change the definition of "win" in some way?

[David Sumner]

LordSkyKnight, on 25 March 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

... . But as people above me have said, assym gameplay is INCREDIBLY hard to balance, and the games that have tried have for the most part failed. One side inevitably has a much higher winrate, and for what we want out of CW, that is unacceptable.
...

Which is why "logistics"

As in, OK, clan win 80% of battles?
That's fine, they only get say 60% as many battles per pilot.

That way, you can win if you are careful about how many battles / pilots you use.
Otherwise, the CW should about balance out.
if it tips too far one way or another in a short time, PGI can move it back a bit with "temporary supply shortages"
If it tips too far long term, tweak the numbers a bit


You want to keep playing?

Hit the queues.
OR
Follow another suggestion I saw
Let each player have 2 pilots, one on each side
Then swap sides.

You want tournaments? Your rules, use whatever

You want private matches? Your rules, use whatever

You want to PUG or group in the public queues?

Fine, just let the players choose what they are willing to face.

"Me clan, me only fight clan" 10 v 10
"Me IS, me only fight IS" 12 v 12
"Me Clan, I don't care what I fight", you might get 10 v 12 or 10 v 10

http://mwomercs.com/...-1/page__st__20

[Lando Kufahl]

Quote

Common fallacy, I just dropped 30 mil on my resistance three mechs, I haven't dealt with the Zeus yet, IS mechs are more organic, you can build them up, but they are very comparable in price once you get into real builds.

Clan mechs are more UPFRONT, they aren't more expensive once they are "good"

I was talking in regard to new players buying their first mechs, almost all the clan mechs are over 10,000,000 C-bills to buy so new players will usually go for IS variants being much cheaper. My point being that there will be larger pug defensive queues on CW and less teamwork due to inexperience and no use of comms/TS3 etc.

I was not saying that fully upgraded IS mechs are not expensive and I agree that once all paid for, a good build, full module set, upgraded DHS, FF, ES does work out at a fairly similar cost.

[multisoul]

HA HA!
i won even with random teams against 12 man Clan. Of course many IS pilots fill their pants in CW and thats the main problem, but each house has its good pilots and even many of the bad ones know how to play in a team which makes them valuable team members. Just like if you sing bad, but can keep the rhythm and noise you still can have a place in a choir.
there is a specific strategy to fight clan and any deviation brings defeat!

LOL! i just came out from the classic "stay at omega to protect it" - always looses, there should be a screenshot of the players when they do it and inevitable loose, the surprise like finding out there was a cake on your chair after you sit on it.

Edited by multisoul, 30 April 2015 - 12:37 AM.

[Koniving]

CHIEF 1974, on 19 December 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Did anyone ever win against a clan opponent in CW?
Lost each attack or defend match.
I am playing games for 30 years now, but this is not very funny.

Best Regards
CHIEF 1974

PS: Hated Clans even on the board game.

I lost my first match, my second and my third. Won my fourth, won my fifth, lost my sixth, won my seventh and eighth.

Eventually I come to learn a few simple but effective tricks.

• Don't fight Clans at range, that's their turf.
  
• Close in. Many IS mechs are quirked into being beyond stupidly overpowered, the issue is you have to get close enough to use them. That requires a team that wants to get close.
  
• Most Clan pilots will suicide / eject once a leg is destroyed. Want to wipe out enemy numbers quickly? Fry the legs and move on. Even Timber Wolf hitbox exploits can't save it from legging.
  
• Hellbringers that have ECM need to have the torso side with the ECM destroyed immediately.
  
• Almost all Clan mechs have paper maché for rear armor.
  
• Most Clan 'Mechs (not the Hellbringer, don't even try it) have giant cockpit hitboxes. Enjoy your headshots! (Takes 33 damage for a kill).
  
• A Clan offensive means Timber Wolves and Summoners jumping over the gate. Go immediately for the legs.
  
• A Clan defensive means lots of long range mechs, typically with lots of lasers and lots of heat. Don't trickle in, come in like a wrecking ball with 12 'Mechs at the same time and laugh when they all shut down.

Hope that helps.

[Soulless One]

INNER SPHERE NEEDS AN ECM HEAVY

not in a gift shop, not promised a year from now, its REQUIRED to trully balance the two sides and is needed immidiately!

[Novawrecker]

Soulless One, on 30 April 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

INNER SPHERE NEEDS AN ECM HEAVY

No it doesn't. Would it be nice to have one? Absolutely. Does it NEED one? Nope.

IS has plenty of ECM mechs available to them and they provided the necessary cover just fine. Now we even have a medium that is ECM capable. Inner Sphere is not lacking in the ECM department. There are other needs that the Inner Sphere is lacking at the moment.

Edited by Novawrecker, 01 May 2015 - 09:40 AM.

[DA BAWSS]

This isnt balanced in the slightest. out of 12 attack rounds, I have had zero victories, despite me using every possible tactic, NOTHING worked.

I had my team try to peak and shoot as a group, FAIL.
I had my team rush up and brawl, FAIL
I had my team split and act as scissors, FAIL.
I had my team spread out and wrap around the enemy, FAIL
I had my team force them to come to us, FAIL

Hell, I even told them what mechs to use, FAIL.

Clans have way too much damage. Their assaults and sometimes heavies can one shot mediums. They can shoot us long before we shoot them. Their LRMs are OP as ****. They can fire 12 medium lasers with the damage and range of large lasers without overheating.
And most importantly: HOW THE **** ARE 4 AUTOMATIC AC 20's FAIR!?!?

If youre a clanner, and you think this is funny/okay, you are a noob, since you cant do anything without your shiny clan mechs.

[Czarr]

Im probably off topic but i don't care

but guys defending the IS has no gotten a lot easier cause look at the clans, the only clan that has numbers to invade is clan wolf.

Therefor we just need to invade Clan Wolf especially when MS resigns with them

Edited by Czarr, 03 May 2015 - 06:22 PM.

[White Bear 84]

CHIEF 1974, on 19 December 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Did anyone ever win against a clan opponent in CW?
Lost each attack or defend match.
I am playing games for 30 years now, but this is not very funny.

Best Regards
CHIEF 1974

PS: Hated Clans even on the board game.

Feeling 50/50 at the moment.

The best games are those where the team is patient and the builds are good, not necessarily meta, but good.

The worst games are those where I have dropped with uncoordinated pugs (particularly when its against a 12man group) and drops against the top teir units that just deathball you & spawn camp you to hell.

[Yokaiko]

DA BAWSS, on 03 May 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

This isnt balanced in the slightest. out of 12 attack rounds, I have had zero victories, despite me using every possible tactic, NOTHING worked.

I had my team try to peak and shoot as a group, FAIL.
I had my team rush up and brawl, FAIL
I had my team split and act as scissors, FAIL.
I had my team spread out and wrap around the enemy, FAIL
I had my team force them to come to us, FAIL

Hell, I even told them what mechs to use, FAIL.

Clans have way too much damage. Their assaults and sometimes heavies can one shot mediums. They can shoot us long before we shoot them. Their LRMs are OP as ****. They can fire 12 medium lasers with the damage and range of large lasers without overheating.
And most importantly: HOW THE **** ARE 4 AUTOMATIC AC 20's FAIR!?!?

If youre a clanner, and you think this is funny/okay, you are a noob, since you cant do anything without your shiny clan mechs.

Holy crap LOLOLOLOLOL

No really LOL>

[hybrid black]

JTSR, on 03 May 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

MS and QQ are both in DCMS "Kurita" space right now, they are doing the same they did the first time round farming planets.

@ Da Bawss you may find the opposition was using enchantments as your story certainly fits the profile.

MS was paid to attack the jags and reduce them to there capital planet.

DA BAWSS, on 03 May 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

This isnt balanced in the slightest. out of 12 attack rounds, I have had zero victories, despite me using every possible tactic, NOTHING worked.

I had my team try to peak and shoot as a group, FAIL.
I had my team rush up and brawl, FAIL
I had my team split and act as scissors, FAIL.
I had my team spread out and wrap around the enemy, FAIL
I had my team force them to come to us, FAIL

Hell, I even told them what mechs to use, FAIL.

Clans have way too much damage. Their assaults and sometimes heavies can one shot mediums. They can shoot us long before we shoot them. Their LRMs are OP as ****. They can fire 12 medium lasers with the damage and range of large lasers without overheating.
And most importantly: HOW THE **** ARE 4 AUTOMATIC AC 20's FAIR!?!?

If youre a clanner, and you think this is funny/okay, you are a noob, since you cant do anything without your shiny clan mechs.

...... how much crack did you smoke tonight?

Soulless One, on 30 April 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

INNER SPHERE NEEDS AN ECM HEAVY

not in a gift shop, not promised a year from now, its REQUIRED to trully balance the two sides and is needed immidiately!

We dont even bring ECM as IS you dont need it..

[Vxheous]

hybrid black, on 03 May 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

MS was paid to attack the jags and reduce them to there capital planet.




...... how much crack did you smoke tonight?




We dont even bring ECM as IS you dont need it..

Maybe his team is running 48 trial mechs...i dunno...As a former full time Clan Wolf loyalist, I am now levelling up some of the IS mechs to do a tour of the IS, and I do not understand how IS pilots could complain about IS mechs. I do just as well in a thunderbolt/Stalker/Dragon/Jager as I do in timber/scr/hbr, if not better because I do not overheat after 2 alphas in IS mechs like I do in clan. Maybe it has something to do with pilot skill, and less to do with which side you play?

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 03 May 2015 - 09:04 PM.

[hybrid black]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 03 May 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

Maybe his team is running 48 trial mechs...i dunno...As a former full time Clan Wolf loyalist, I am now levelling up some of the IS mechs to do a tour of the IS, and I do not understand how IS pilots could complain about IS mechs. I do just as well in a thunderbolt/Stalker/Dragon/Jager as I do in timber/scr/hbr, if not better because I do not overheat after 2 alphas in IS mechs like I do in clan. Maybe it has something to do with pilot skill, and less to do with which side you play?

It very much does, in CW i strongly believe the IS have the better mechs but only 10% of the is use them, where 90% of the clans use there good mechs.