90 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

My sole opinion of CW as a pug (who is not using Zerg tactics):

Defending as an average IS pug team against a clan 12-man on Sulfur ==> hard but possible, did it alot of times
Defending as an average IS pug team against an IS 12-man on Sulfur ==> absolutely possible
Attacking as an average IS pug team against a clan 12-man on Sulfur ==> hard but possible, did it already
Attacking as an average IS pug team against an IS 12-man on Sulfur ==> absolutely possible

Defending as an average IS pug team against a clan 12-man on Boreal ==> hard but possible
Defending as an average IS pug team against an IS 12-man on Boreal ==> absolutely possible
Attacking as an average IS pug team against an IS 12-man on Boreal ===> very very hard
Attacking as an average IS pug team against a clan 12-man on Boreal ==> AB.SO.LUTE.LY BROKEN!

And I'm saying this as someone who likes challenges and doesn't complain about balance that much.

Edited by TexAss, 19 December 2014 - 06:05 PM.

[Alekzander Smirnoff]

Yeah, that map, has led me to rebuild all my drop mech's to gauss and erll/ppc (tdr-9s is one of my best on this map). Clan's range advantage is so stupidly good on that map that you are nearly dead by the time you get halfway into the inside and then you've barely scratched them.

[MischiefSC]

12 TDR 9S with 3xERPPCs. Spamspamspamspam. 6 on each ledge. You can stomp them without even needing to drop the gates.

[Sandpit]

I have found there's a lot of "impossible" things in MWO...

well until others show how they performed the impossible

[Mystere]

Sandpit, on 19 December 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

I have found there's a lot of "impossible" things in MWO...

well until others show how they performed the impossible

[Andi Nagasia]

luck of the draw,
i haven't been in a Clan vs IS battle that ive won so far,
ive played and won maybe half the time against Clans,
but Quirked IS seem amazingly strong,
form what ive experienced,

Strong but not imposable to beat,
i suppose Clan must seem the same to some IS players,

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 19 December 2014 - 05:11 PM.

[Alekzander Smirnoff]

On a side note, i added two, even lower, DPI settings on my mouse for sniping. Never thought I'd get down to 300 DPI.... LOL!

[Sandpit]

Alekzander Smirnoff, on 19 December 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

On a side note, i added two, even lower, DPI settings on my mouse for sniping. Never thought I'd get down to 300 DPI.... LOL!

I have a speed clutch on mine so when i hit my advanced zoom i can quickly hit the clutch and drop my DPI. It's great!

[Shalune]

If the CW games I've PUGed on both clan and IS are indicative, the average IS pilot has a -lot- farther to go to understanding how to approach this mode properly.

Two of many problems:
- Many IS players seem to think the ideal way to play or win is a slow steady push, destroying mechs along the way. This is especially terrible against clans who thrive on being given time to cool down. And in general speed appears to be king of this mode.

- Many IS players are bringing mechs ill-suited to this mode. Way too many slow assaults on offense and generally mediocre mech loadouts.

I'm not going to write up a whole guide here, but to make the most of our Inner Spherely goodness we need to leverage our advantages: fast and up-gunned lights, durability of STD engines, high dps low heat builds, better weapon precision, and exploitable quirks.

EDIT: Looking back at my post I want to clarify that I'm not trying to berate anyone. Regardless of who my unit is fighting for as time goes on I'd rather the community as a whole understood the game mode better so we get more exciting and enjoyable matches. My main point is that my experience suggests that what you're seeing is not the result of imbalance in the game's design.

Edited by Shalune, 19 December 2014 - 05:20 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 19 December 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

You miserable son of a *****.

Now I have to watch that movie again. The 1972 Man of La Mancha with Peter O'Tool and Sophia Loren was brilliant and makes me grieve for younger generations and how low their expectations for movies is.

2 hours of my life you just cost me though.

[oldradagast]

I cannot agree with the statement that it is "impossible," but I do not deny that your experiences may have led to that conclusion.

A few things:

1) Overall, the best Clan mechs are a bit better than the best IS mechs, true. Note that this is NOT a call for nerfing them - I'm fine with the setup as is now, particularly with quirks being given out to underperforming chassis. That being said, the small edge one gains by playing Clan, while it does exist, is not enough on its own to swing a match.

2) The problem, far more likely - and even basically stated in your original post - is that disorganized players have very little hope against organized opponents.

Overall, I'm reasonably sure that if one flipped the situation around - made the Clan the disorganized group and the IS the organized one - the results would be about the same. Yes, the best Clan mechs - the ones everyone is running - are a bit better, and, yes, the Clan drawback of "no super fast mechs" matters less in CW than in say... Conquest... but the end result is the same.

Teamwork more than any other factor wins CW games. More than which mechs are chosen, more than which side or team you're on, and even more than individual player skill: i.e. a few really good players can't carry team (unlike in public matches) and a team of really good players that don't communicate will almost surely still lose against mediocre foes who are coordinated.

Arguments can be made about how reliant CW games are on teamwork vs. other factors and how far too many games are basically decided at the dropdeck screen when you see which groups - or random PUGS - are playing, but again, it's not about Clans, it's about teamwork.

Edited by oldradagast, 19 December 2014 - 05:52 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

The OP's argument relies on 2 accurate facts: 1. the Boreal gates can each be defended by 6 Mechs at a time, all with direct LOS on the only ledges that can be used to attach the gate generators 2. The Clans have better weapon ranges.

It is like the Clans got to choose how to make the map to their advantage.

[oldradagast]

Prosperity Park, on 19 December 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

The OP's argument relies on 2 accurate facts: 1. the Boreal gates can each be defended by 6 Mechs at a time, all with direct LOS on the only ledges that can be used to attach the gate generators 2. The Clans have better weapon ranges.

It is like the Clans got to choose how to make the map to their advantage.

Yes and no...

While I do not disagree that the Clan's best mechs are overall a bit better than the IS ones and that the Clan's focus towards long-range combat does give them an edge on certain maps, such as Boreal, I still say that teamwork is an overriding factor towards victory.

That being said, valid arguments can still be made that the maps favor certain repetitive tactics, as does the current CW setup as a whole, and that gross imbalances in the teamwork capabilities of each team (PUG's against 12-mans) is producing a skewed and "un-fun" environment for players.

In short, teamwork will win you more games than just playing a Clan mech, but that doesn't mean the games you win were balanced, fun, or not riddled with other valid problems that are being discussed.

Edited by oldradagast, 19 December 2014 - 06:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

The biggest fundamental issue with IS attacking Clanners on Boreal is that if it's not a 12man, nobody wants to push. Also people still bring LRMs to fight Clanners, who are going to be stacked with ECM Kitfoxes and Hellbringers.

You brawl them on Boreal or you lose.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 19 December 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

The biggest fundamental issue with IS attacking Clanners on Boreal is that if it's not a 12man, nobody wants to push. Also people still bring LRMs to fight Clanners, who are going to be stacked with ECM Kitfoxes and Hellbringers.

You brawl them on Boreal or you lose.

brawl cohesively
That's important lol
Just running in screaming go joe, ain't gonna cut it

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 19 December 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

brawl cohesively
That's important lol
Just running in screaming go joe, ain't gonna cut it

That is exactly correct. One of the best tactics against clanners is a mixed brawl/push. Assaults and slow mediums/heavies are not going to make the run all the way to gens anyway. They bull rush the Clanners while lights/fast mediums pull a QB sneak Gen run and you'll eat it all by wave 3.

The problem is that you tell someone 'Your job is to run up and die point blank, just keep 'em busy' and they may say 'rgr' in chat but the call comes and.... parking behind a corner. Or they inexplicably follow the gen sneak.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 19 December 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

That is exactly correct. One of the best tactics against clanners is a mixed brawl/push. Assaults and slow mediums/heavies are not going to make the run all the way to gens anyway. They bull rush the Clanners while lights/fast mediums pull a QB sneak Gen run and you'll eat it all by wave 3.

The problem is that you tell someone 'Your job is to run up and die point blank, just keep 'em busy' and they may say 'rgr' in chat but the call comes and.... parking behind a corner. Or they inexplicably follow the gen sneak.

yup exactly
It's not the "skill" that me and my buddies have a lot of times, it's the coordination. If I'm in my assault then we switch off taking point and have learned to trade off who's out front to help soak damage making ourselves a much easier target. That forces the other team to spread damage even if they're focusing fire.

Little things like that have nothing to do with your individual "skill", it has to do with working together as a team. It's REALLY hard to get solo players sometimes to do things like that. They want to take those monster assaults out but don't understand that they're about more than just more armor and bigger weapons.

[oldradagast]

Sandpit, on 19 December 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

yup exactly
It's not the "skill" that me and my buddies have a lot of times, it's the coordination. If I'm in my assault then we switch off taking point and have learned to trade off who's out front to help soak damage making ourselves a much easier target. That forces the other team to spread damage even if they're focusing fire.

Little things like that have nothing to do with your individual "skill", it has to do with working together as a team. It's REALLY hard to get solo players sometimes to do things like that. They want to take those monster assaults out but don't understand that they're about more than just more armor and bigger weapons.

Exactly - in CW:

Coordination > skill > Clan mech or IS mech.

Sure, you may get a small edge playing Clans, and certainly skill does matter, but if you have no coordination, you cannot win... well, okay, you can win against an equally uncoordinated team, but you know what I mean.

Plenty of valid issues can be raised about map design: simplistic objectives, lack of tactical mobility, repetitive strategies, but honestly saying that "clans can't be beaten on defense on Boreal" just isn't accurate. It is possible that Clans on defense on Boreal is the hardest setup to beat when looking purely at maps and mechs available, but still... coordination matters a whole lot.

Ugh... this game needs more built in coms options, but they are supposedly working on that...

Edited by oldradagast, 19 December 2014 - 06:47 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

F6 for victory.
Defend the OGs.
Mind the zerg rush.
Reds camping in stacks behind the gates.



The life of a mechwarrior.

[Tezcatli]

It goes both ways. I've defended as a pug IS and it's easy to beat a pug Clan. Not so much an organized group. But you have the advantage of being better at the brawl and if you're team is half competent you can stop them.

But the range advantage and the distance you have to travel on the map makes it more advantageous for the Clans when defending. And recently ran into the tactic of just a metric fckton of LRM spam. And there's NO cover on the map between the gate and the generators that will protect you from LRMs. Especially since it angles so well over low cover.

So you imagine your average pug probably doesn't have his radar dep or even weapon modules. So you lose at least 2 guys to spam right away. And since it's pugs. You're not going in as a nice solid group. So they have time to sand paper the armor off some other guy with LRM spam. And since it's a pug group, for whatever reason, no one brought ECM.

But that's pug play. We can't balance around pug play. Which is a valid point for a mode that's supposed to be "hardcore".

The morale of the story is. Join a unit. Or just deal with the fact you'll be used as fodder to populate the CW map.