162 replies to this topic

[VenturePilot]

Kampfer, on 21 December 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

People don't play lights because no matter how good you are someone is just going to legged by a single lucky shot and very few lights have the firepower to take down something larger than them and still have enough armor to do it a second time.

You gotta choose your engagement. run into death blob? get into solid cover, jink and get away. Single heavy/assault? get behind and unload into his back armor, you might get a couple shots only, but you'll turn him around. disengage, find new target. Wounded mech? you can take that like a pie on a platter

[Xetelian]

Adonis1Aleus, on 21 December 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

You gotta choose your engagement. run into death blob? get into solid cover, jink and get away. Single heavy/assault? get behind and unload into his back armor, you might get a couple shots only, but you'll turn him around. disengage, find new target. Wounded mech? you can take that like a pie on a platter

It just sounds so easy. Don't mind me I'm going to learn jinking.

Clan lights and some of the IS lights need bigger buffs.

[Y E O N N E]

While I get that there are tons of tactics available to Lights and I use them myself, they all rely on the rest of the team doing well, too. Unfortunately, the MM does its balance thingy and you end up as the intended carry in something like a Locust all too frequently.

Brody319, on 21 December 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

yea and in my fatter mechs I might take an unlucky shot to my leg, side torso, or ammo and end up dead or weaponless. It happens to every mech.

How many of those unlucky hits take you out of fight from 100% armor?

It's one thing to already be injured and lose a component, it's something else entirely to get gimped from the beginning of a match because there's a guy who can spam AC/5 in your general direction at such a rate of fire that the probability of not getting hit is dramatically reduced. Everybody says speed is supposed to be a replacement for armor, but most pilots are competent enough shots and have enough firepower that it's not an even trade.

[Pilotasso]

Lights are for support not for brawling. Too much time enjoying lagshield heh?

[Brody319]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

While I get that there are tons of tactics available to Lights and I use them myself, they all rely on the rest of the team doing well, too. Unfortunately, the MM does its balance thingy and you end up as the intended carry in something like a Locust all too frequently.



How many of those unlucky hits take you out of fight from 100% armor?

It's one thing to already be injured and lose a component, it's something else entirely to get gimped from the beginning of a match because there's a guy who can spam AC/5 in your general direction at such a rate of fire that the probability of not getting hit is dramatically reduced. Everybody says speed is supposed to be a replacement for armor, but most pilots are competent enough shots and have enough firepower that it's not an even trade.

Oh okay. Yea lets just quirk all the lights with the leg armor of a Heavy, that way they never have to worry about getting legged again.

EVERY mech has its weakness, Light's weakness is their legs. I'm tired of these topics begging for more buffs to lights. It can never just be that people want to play bigger mechs, nope, the percentage of mechs trying to drop clearly means those mechs are underpowered and need to be buffed. You will never get and keep a perfect 25% for every mech que.

[Burktross]

They're the lowest population because they're the weight class of mechwarrior as the AWP is to CSGO
Require a lot of skill to master, thus low pop. They're still scary in the right hands, however.

[Khobai]

Quote

They're the lowest population because they're the weight class of mechwarrior as the AWP is to CSGO
Require a lot of skill to master, thus low pop. They're still scary in the right hands, however.

That only applies to IS lights though. Clan lights are outright inferior to clan mediums.

[Y E O N N E]

Brody319, on 21 December 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Oh okay. Yea lets just quirk all the lights with the leg armor of a Heavy, that way they never have to worry about getting legged again.

EVERY mech has its weakness, Light's weakness is their legs. I'm tired of these topics begging for more buffs to lights. It can never just be that people want to play bigger mechs, nope, the percentage of mechs trying to drop clearly means those mechs are underpowered and need to be buffed. You will never get and keep a perfect 25% for every mech que.

I never suggested we should up the bonus armor on the lights or that I want 25% in every queue, that's all on you. Rather, I'm more interested in ways to make Light 'Mechs more useful to a team of relative newcomers. Right now, you get penalized for playing a Light. You are a liability to the team's durability and, usually, its firepower. If you get dropped with a bunch of players who are new, inexperienced, or otherwise not talented, your options are extremely limited in what you can do to try and support them. If you were in a Timberwolf, you could push battle-lines, brawl it up to encourage friendlies to join in, etc. In a Spider? Good luck; you can only dip in once or twice if your enemy is capable of shooting at the red Doritoes, and it's gonna hurt.

The root of my response, however, was that you drew a silly comparison in your original post. Driving a 'Mech that can just stand there and take a few (several) hits is not in any way comparable to something that is trying its hardest to avoid even being seen, let alone avoiding a hit. And we're not just talking about the legs, in the case of a Light. Any shot anywhere is devastating. Losing an arm means losing a huge portion of your firepower on a 'Mech that already has a small amount to contribute. Opening up any torso section means the Light can't really engage anymore because a grazing shot will kill it. Losing a leg is honestly the least of my concerns, and it's something that only really happens to me under LRM fire.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

lights need hitboxes,then some love.

[Burktross]

Khobai, on 21 December 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

That only applies to IS lights though. Clan lights are outright inferior to clan mediums.

I was only talking about IS lights-- clan lights aren't lights! :^)

[Event Horizon]

So many light haters.

[Kampfer]

Oh many of you people claiming lights are fine play lights, because Statistically Speaking, you are liars, no more than 9% of you would actually be telling the truth.
The problem with lights is that the over all skill level and aiming abilities of players has exceeded any speed advantages light players have. That's it. PERIOD. End of discussion.
Most players have no problem nailing a light mech within light mech weapon range (less than 300m) with a shot from Double Gauss or blasting them to bits with AC5 boats. LRMs are a problem too; yes lights can hide, but if they have a spotter on them then it is game over and LRMs take very little aiming skill, and yes EVENTUALLY a light will have someone spotting on them, they cannot hide the entire game.

Now that that is established let's return to talking about what can be done to fix lights.

[KyBr2K]

The Kit Fox is like a swiss army knife on legs. I used to hate it until I found out how much utility you can stack on that thing.
3x AMS, 1x ECM, a tag laser, a NARC and a BAP. You can even wield a medlas or two to contribute. AND let's not forget about the JJs.

Granted, it's not a brawler or boom'n'zoom type of mech, but support-wise it's hard to surpass (imo).

I don't know if this is even on topic or even helps to contribute. I just thought I'd share my 2 cents on the matter. I'm not a light kind of guy, except when it comes to the Kit Fox (swiss army knife edition).

[Kampfer]

Kitfox is an amazing mech that gives a team a huge edge (before CW I ran kitfoxes for 3AMS ECM TAG on 3 varients to master)
but you won't get many points for damage in challenges and tourneys

[El Bandito]

Just gonna quote my other post here.

El Bandito, on 21 December 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

Make every PPFLD--such as the PPCs and IS ACs--stream-fire (except the Gauss, but make it explode almost every time when it is destroyed), and then go from there. Convergence fix is currently out of PGI's capability/priority, so PPFLD fix is easier solution.

And then globally nerf all mech movespeed and agility. Makes the game more multiple tons of metal feel and helps hit-reg as well.

Perhaps giving torso mounted weapons small amount of convergence penalty (such as convergence speed or angle) will help reducing those terrible alphas.

Edited by El Bandito, 21 December 2014 - 07:34 PM.

[Tlords]

Lights are at a disadvantage because the current game play forces them to play a style they were not designed for. With exception of a few lights (kitfox for example), lights are designed to harass and flank.

We need large spread out maps, where light mechs can show their true benefit. There was a time with this game where Alpine required great light pilots to win on conquest, as the capture points were spread out. The current game, relies on few long range battles and lots of infighting to win. With larger maps, lights can maintain the distance and provide adequate scouting. I am for more scouting roles, less buffs to light mech surviveability.

They were never designed to run into a full lance of heavy or assault mechs and survive. They are flankers and harassers.

[Khobai]

Quote

Most players have no problem nailing a light mech within light mech weapon range (less than 300m) with a shot from Double Gauss or blasting them to bits with AC5 boats.

because heavies and assaults have too much turning speed. some also have too much max speed.

getting rid of speed tweak and anchor turn from heavy/assault skill trees would make it harder to keep lights under their reticle. as a result light mobility would become worth more.

heavies/assaults would get alternate skills instead like damage reduction and shake reduction.

Quote

They were never designed to run into a full lance of heavy or assault mechs and survive. They are flankers and harassers.

12v12 is what ruined that. 12v12 means so much focus fire that lights just cant survive it. 8v8 was so much better.

Edited by Khobai, 21 December 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Brody319, on 21 December 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Oh okay. Yea lets just quirk all the lights with the leg armor of a Heavy, that way they never have to worry about getting legged again.

EVERY mech has its weakness, Light's weakness is their legs. I'm tired of these topics begging for more buffs to lights. It can never just be that people want to play bigger mechs, nope, the percentage of mechs trying to drop clearly means those mechs are underpowered and need to be buffed. You will never get and keep a perfect 25% for every mech que.

For those of us that do not rely on Lag shielding with a ping less than 50 and have never really had it. Now that Hit Reg is fixed which needed to be done

ROFL I was just alpha'ed by a TW through a mountainside on Tournaline Desert.

The fact of the matter is this

1. Light Queue is so low because it takes more skill to play a light
2. Now that Hit Reg is being addressed for lasers, lights die much much quiker
3. No one likes to die quiker and much rather live
4. Now that Hit Reg is tweaked and Lights die faster all the "Wannabes" are moving to mechs that can take at least one hit
5. This leaves the minority of true light pilots to suffer the wrath of Laser Vomit and 50 points of PPFLD.
6 Light Queue is now less than 5% for the last 48 hours

[Brody319]

Darian DelFord, on 21 December 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

For those of us that do not rely on Lag shielding with a ping less than 50 and have never really had it. Now that Hit Reg is fixed which needed to be done

ROFL I was just alpha'ed by a TW through a mountainside on Tournaline Desert.

The fact of the matter is this

1. Light Queue is so low because it takes more skill to play a light
2. Now that Hit Reg is being addressed for lasers, lights die much much quiker
3. No one likes to die quiker and much rather live
4. Now that Hit Reg is tweaked and Lights die faster all the "Wannabes" are moving to mechs that can take at least one hit
5. This leaves the minority of true light pilots to suffer the wrath of Laser Vomit and 50 points of PPFLD.
6 Light Queue is now less than 5% for the last 48 hours

Exactly. I started my Light gameplay with the Kit Fox and Adder. So I learned very quickly about not having a Lag shield. Then I went to the Raven, finally the Firestarters. I plan on doing the locusts after I finish my Centurions. I never felt the crutch of the lag shield so every time I see these topics I just feel like people need the lag shield to break the "skill jump" needed to pilot lights to their fullest potential.

[Darian DelFord]

Brody319, on 21 December 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

Exactly. I started my Light gameplay with the Kit Fox and Adder. So I learned very quickly about not having a Lag shield. Then I went to the Raven, finally the Firestarters. I plan on doing the locusts after I finish my Centurions. I never felt the crutch of the lag shield so every time I see these topics I just feel like people need the lag shield to break the "skill jump" needed to pilot lights to their fullest potential.

There is no fullest potential right now (. The fix to Hit Reg has effectively neutered lights. While yes lights will still have a decent game from time to time, making it a a repeat effort is not viable. Sorry but those are the facts. Prior to the last patch I could count on 2 hands how many times I have been legged since closed beta. Tonight alone I am over 14.

However part of the problem is better hit reg, which I agree we needed. However when you have Heavies and assaults that practically can turn on a dime, that is part of the issue. Heavier mechs are just to damned maneuverable. That does need to be addressed.

And I am sure folks will come here and say L2P. but that does not change the fact that jenners are all I play and have played since Closed Beta. This last patch whatever they did, has put lights at the bottom of the food chain. There are many ways to fix it. I do not think light mechs should be forgotten. I wholeheartedly believe that when an assault mech sees a light zeroing on him the fear of God should over come him. That no longer happens. I played my TDR several times tonight and was picking lights off left and right. The wings of a light mech have been clipped.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 21 December 2014 - 09:43 PM.