52 replies to this topic

[Escef]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

I kind of like that Artemis thought, since mechs with CT or HEad missile slots are screwed (even though I'm pretty sure you are supposed to be able to equip artemis in an adjoining section in some cases)

When Artemis was first added to table top in TRO 2750, you could. The rules for TT have since changed that, not sure when.

[Alek Ituin]

Yeah, Artemis is explained as an add-on for the launcher itself, adding infrared targeting equipment for increased accuracy. One can assume that Artemis IV ammo is beam riding, thus benefiting from the infrared guidance beams...

It also means that Artemis should only affect direct fire launches with clear views of the target. Otherwise, remove it from upgrades, slap it in as equipment, and relabel it as a targeting computer add-on module that more effectively coordinates the missiles flight paths.

[PitchBlackYeti]

Vassago Rain, on 21 December 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

When and where were crit slots ever in short supply?



10/10 golden pubbie build.

Only 9/10 from me because he actually has a TAG

[GreyNovember]

To the OP; Where would you find the room to fit another half ton of ammo in the same crit space?

[Pjwned]

Eonai, on 22 December 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

To the OP; Where would you find the room to fit another half ton of ammo in the same crit space?

If you mean from a lore perspective, it's pretty much completely ignored; missiles are now magically smaller and more of them can be crammed into the same amount of space.

If you mean something else then I don't see what the point of the question is.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 December 2014 - 02:19 AM.

[ztac]

WoW a lets buff LRM thread ! Are you insane ? LRM are already OP and have been for some time and PGI do nothing as per usual!

Also whilst on the subject of TT Clan mechs are way more powerful .. yet in game the are worse than IS now thanks to all the buffing of IS mechs by PGI. Go check it out on the testing grounds! PGI as per usual forgot about the drawbacks they gave the clan mechs and then nerfed them further a while back.

Like people say 'PGI we totally know what we are doing' NOT!

LRM boats are for people that don't want to play the game really.

[Chagatay]

Pjwned, on 21 December 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

I was wondering what sort of discussion people could have about adding an ammo pack for LRMs that has 360 missiles, weighs 2 tons, and takes 1 crit slot. The reason I bring it up is that it seems like in tabletop you don't need to carry a whole lot of LRM ammo, and stock mech builds kind of reflect this even, but in MWO you need to carry a lot of ammo if you want it to be worthwhile; perhaps indicative of LRMs being too spammy but I'm not going to argue about that now.

If somehow you're not sure what the benefit might be, it would be to free up some crit slots, particularly for LRM focused mechs (which have some issues sometimes with their huge launchers, especially with Artemis, and their need to pack in tons of ammo) but also for other mechs that might use a couple LRM tubes as a secondary weapon. An alternative solution would be to simply increase the amount of LRM ammo per ammo pack, but I'm not sure I agree with that because that starts to directly mess around with tonnage, and for the most part I think the tonnage when using LRMs is fine how it is.

As suggested in parentheses in the title, it could just be a 1.5 ton ammo pack with 270 missiles if there are concerns about a 2 ton ammo pack being too good, but the point is to give LRM mechs a little bit of relief and a 1.5 ton ammo pack would still help.

I'm only suggesting this for LRMs really because everything else that uses ammo is direct fire and, aside from SSRMs, doesn't spread damage like crazy either, so they generally don't require as much ammo.

The amount of LRM ammo one should carry is highly speculative. While I agree for IS LRMers 1T ammo per 5 tubes is a good number if you are unsure about how many to bring, I am not so sure with clan. The difference is that the clan LRM tubes are so light weight that you could short tonnage them just for initial engagement and switch to the standard method of clan warfare, lasers, for the short game.

LRMs are very good for clan mechs and I cannot help but endorse the use of some launchers for indirect support. Heck, most clan mechs already have the necessary hard point layouts to work with this strategy. With CW of course all the normal rules don't apply as you "only" need to be in a single mech for 7.5m of action time instead of the normal 15m.

Edited by Chagatay, 22 December 2014 - 04:09 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 21 December 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

:facepalm:

Because 2,070 missiles isnt enough....lets find a way to be even more terribad and pack in 3,000, because, im bad, and I use huge lrm boats.

I have a mad dog, and 3243243 LRM5s on it, and I do great in pug challenge weekends, and I need MOAR AMMO.

Thankfully, I dont run this game, or id just ban the OP.

El Bandito, on 21 December 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

Added to my collection of "Ridiculous hyperboles uttered by LRM haters".

So what's that make me El? Cause I agree with him!

The idea of more ammo for no extra Crit space is bad. And I want better LRMs so top ranking players would use them as should be in combat.

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 December 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

So what's that make me El? Cause I agree with him!

The idea of more ammo for no extra Crit space is bad. And I want better LRMs so top ranking players would use them as should be in combat.

Hence I offered my own idea where Artemis only adds tonnage not crit space--due to Ghost Heat link screwed over mixed launcher LRM boats. That will free up some space while alleviating the issue of CT and Head slot launchers. Mostly noobs will pack more than 2000-3000 ammo per mech, and mostly noobs will think the OP is begging to put 3000 ammo in his mech.

Plus the noob I quoted stated that all pilots who ride huge LRM boats are baddies--which is far from the truth.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 December 2014 - 08:20 AM.

[Galenit]

El Bandito, on 22 December 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Mostly noobs will pack more than 2000-3000 ammo per mech, and mostly noobs will think the OP is begging to put 3000 ammo in his mech.

3000?
Maybe someone should tell them
that we have no destructable enviroment,
they cant destroy hills or buildings.

1 ton ammo, sometimes 1,25 tons, for each 5 tubes for IS launchers are ok.
Depends on sure launching or using some ammo for suppression too.

[Pjwned]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 December 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

So what's that make me El? Cause I agree with him!

Well, I guess that would mean you agree with ridiculous hyperbole, because that's what that statement is.

Quote

The idea of more ammo for no extra Crit space is bad. And I want better LRMs so top ranking players would use them as should be in combat.

I welcome other good solutions, but like I said I figured that magically adding more ammo per ton would be more controversial, especially given other responses in the thread.

There is El Bandito's idea about Artemis not increasing crit slots, which would also be a pretty good solution probably and also have (good? bad?) implications with SRMs as well, but I'm not sure which solution would be better and it leaves the question of whether or not the solution should benefit LRM mechs that don't have Artemis.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 December 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pjwned, on 22 December 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Well, I guess that would mean you agree with ridiculous hyperbole, because that's what that statement is.

Well yes I do because:

Quote

A good way to think of a hyperbole’s usage is to imagine it going through a realm of impossibility to reach possibility. (J. Ritter) As an example we can look at an exaggeration such as, “The class felt like it was six thousand hours long.” In reality, no class is six thousand hours long, but through the context the reader can understand that the speaker is telling them that the class felt extremely long. Through that same example, the theory that a hyperbole is inserting a lie on a set of truths is very easily understandable as well. The six thousand hours exaggeration is a lie that was entered into the context, which was otherwise true. (J Ritter)

Understanding hyperboles and their use in context will further your ability to understand the messages being sent from the speaker. It has been established that use of hyperboles relays emotions. They can be used in a form of humor, excitement, distress, and many other emotions, all depending on the context in which the speaker uses it. (C. Braider)

This is not, The High school debate team, and using such things as Hyperboles do make a point within the exaggeration. Now being unwilling to understand the exaggeration for what it is (a good even if exaggerated Point), well that's just silly.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 December 2014 - 09:02 AM.

[Pjwned]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 December 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Well yes I do because:
This is not, The High school debate team, and using such things as Hyperboles do make a point within the exaggeration. Now being unwilling to understand the exaggeration for what it is (a good even if exaggerated Point), well that's just silly.

The problem is that there wasn't even a good point to be found because that statement neither addressed (any of) the reason(s) why LRM mechs could perhaps use a little help cramming in more ammo (without directly buffing the amount of ammo per ton mind you) nor did it say why they shouldn't get a little help other than what basically amounted to "LOL I'M A LRM SCRUB XDDDDDDDD AND I WANT MORE LURMS CUZ IM SO BAD LOL."

That's not helpful.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 December 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 December 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

So what's that make me El? Cause I agree with him!

The idea of more ammo for no extra Crit space is bad. And I want better LRMs so top ranking players would use them as should be in combat.

This.

LRMs dont exist in group queues. You wont see the LORDs stomping around in CW with a single lrm launcher on their mechs.

Lrms in their current state are a mess. The feast and famine part needs to be fixed.

MOAR AMMO is about the dumbest idea ive heard since "lets double the rate of fire on everything!!!"

[KraftySOT]

And it *IS* helpful.

Call a spade a spade. The more clear, precise, and full of correct information the discussion, the more chances its going to produce fruit.

There are lots of things to do to LRMs. MOAR AMMO~! Is not one of them.

The fact is, a sure sign that youre a terribad, is that you have 4 LRM15s and no weapons, and 2000+ missiles, and are running around pugs asking people for locks.

Those people, dont have good ideas, because they dont even understand the game theyre playing in.

And no one, anywhere, using 7+ LRM5s, is whining for MOAR AMMO...because you can already take enough to end most mechs with 2,000 damage that 60-70% hits your CT.

Why should we waste time on ideas that come from people who dont even understand the current meta or game mechanics?

[KraftySOT]

I mean imagine a guy building a house with a hammer and nails. And he's asking for more nails.

Thats a terribad idea.

He should be asking for a freaking nailgun.

MOAR LURMS!!! is the byproduct suggestion of a person who has 2,000+ missiles, and isnt killing alot of stuff, because LRMs are in a bad place right now, and have been for a long long time, and is beating his head against the wall trying to "be better" with a weapon system thats borked. "If I just had 4,000 missiles, then id be better" is what he's thinking. If I could pack more ammo into smaller crit spaces, I could endo and ferros and have tons of launchers and ammo!! Yeah!!

Why not suggest to oh I dont know, fix the LRM so theyre not completely useless in most situations, where your ammo that you already have, that isnt breaking canon, is actually useful, rather than have more of it.


If you couldnt read through my hyperbole to figure that out. Maybe youre terribad too. Clearly Joe, who is one of the most level headed and knowledgable posters on here can use that reading comprehension.....im sure the rest of you, given time, can attain that level of civility and understanding.

[LordMelvin]

I rarely drop with more than 5 tons of missiles and I rarely run out of ammo. I find that when I drop with more missiles than I can possibly fire I tend to hang back and be less of an asset to my time. By restricting the amount of indirect damage I can deal I force myself to take advantage of direct fire weapons, which keeps me with the team and engaged in combat longer.

In most cases if someone is going through 2000+ missiles a match they are either wasting a lot of ammo or hardcore carrying their team. Generally it's the former. And if people are wasting that much ammo firing into hills and losing locks, imagine how much more effective they would be with half the ammo and some direct fire back-up weapons.

[wanderer]

Quote

All ammo-using weapons are meant to be support weapons, not main weapons -- that's what energy are for.

There's a long line of 'Mechs from primitive tech to 3145 who would disagree strongly with that statement. Ironically, of the Founder's designs in MWO, you have a mostly-energy light, a medium whose real punch is it's ballistic AC/20, an LRM boat that gets the same lasers as the Jenner, and a 100-tonner who when out of ammo has about as much firepower as the Jenner does, too.

[Pjwned]

KraftySOT, on 22 December 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

And it *IS* helpful.

Call a spade a spade. The more clear, precise, and full of correct information the discussion, the more chances its going to produce fruit.

There are lots of things to do to LRMs. MOAR AMMO~! Is not one of them.

The fact is, a sure sign that youre a terribad, is that you have 4 LRM15s and no weapons, and 2000+ missiles, and are running around pugs asking people for locks.

Those people, dont have good ideas, because they dont even understand the game theyre playing in.

And no one, anywhere, using 7+ LRM5s, is whining for MOAR AMMO...because you can already take enough to end most mechs with 2,000 damage that 60-70% hits your CT.

Why should we waste time on ideas that come from people who dont even understand the current meta or game mechanics?

You are making ridiculous assumptions, and no it's not helpful.

KraftySOT, on 22 December 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

I mean imagine a guy building a house with a hammer and nails. And he's asking for more nails.

Thats a terribad idea.

He should be asking for a freaking nailgun.

MOAR LURMS!!! is the byproduct suggestion of a person who has 2,000+ missiles, and isnt killing alot of stuff, because LRMs are in a bad place right now, and have been for a long long time, and is beating his head against the wall trying to "be better" with a weapon system thats borked. "If I just had 4,000 missiles, then id be better" is what he's thinking. If I could pack more ammo into smaller crit spaces, I could endo and ferros and have tons of launchers and ammo!! Yeah!!

Yes because the difference between having endo/ferro (which doesn't even apply to every LRM build) obviously means cramming in more ammo when you already have more than you need with your LRM60, it couldn't possibly have other legitimate, practical uses in other builds.

Quote

Why not suggest to oh I dont know, fix the LRM so theyre not completely useless in most situations, where your ammo that you already have, that isnt breaking canon, is actually useful, rather than have more of it.

If you have such great ideas then feel free to post them instead of immediately being a colossal dipshit.

Quote

If you couldnt read through my hyperbole to figure that out. Maybe youre terribad too. Clearly Joe, who is one of the most level headed and knowledgable posters on here can use that reading comprehension.....im sure the rest of you, given time, can attain that level of civility and understanding.

Right, because you make a stupid post that doesn't actually address a single point in the OP that means I'm terribad.

Get a grip please, you can use hyperbole to enforce a valid point but you didn't have a point to begin with.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 December 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Durant Carlyle, on 21 December 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

All ammo-using weapons are meant to be support weapons, not main weapons -- that's what energy are for.

This is where you lost me.....

Perhaps a compromise is in order because I follow the logic the OP is using. How about 270 LRMs for 1 crit and 2 tons? 150% LRMs for 200% weight. Seems a fair trade.....

Edited by cdlord, 23 December 2014 - 05:33 AM.