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The Real Issue Is Not "clan Mechs Are Op"

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#1 Jonnara

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:06 AM

The real problem is Attacking(pug) can not win vs Defending(pug) almost every time.

Exception only when someone takes charge of the 3 lances and can type out commands at 130 words per minute and the other pugs actually follows his or her orders.

It does not matter either way which side is clan or which side is Inner Sphere. This is much more the case with Community Warfare than it is with any other game mode for MWO.


To add to this problem is that clans with 4men+ unit group or bigger. The unit group will issue orders to the pickup or solo players as to what the plan of attack is. Which gate we going to attack and how and when to push in to the base.

You can nerf the clan mechs to the cows come home but the team work and communication will always get the better of you.
We also have other unit's TS info shared when drops happen to have different units of the same faction all on voice communication.

Until you Inner Sphere players finish playing catch up to our team work your never going to win and will always blame it on Other side is OP.

Edited by Jonnara, 22 December 2014 - 12:08 AM.


#2 Mordin Ashe

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:13 AM

I agree, but it still can be done and depends on the map.

Defending on the new frost map is far too easy, some of the hills around F6 must be lowered so that defenders can't stand in 1 spot to cover all approaching enemies.

The sulphur map is great, and attacker needs only a little coordination to succeed. Last night I managed single-handedly defeat all generators and damage omega. The other 44 Mechs didn't do anything but lemmings role-playing but still, if you get 2 puggies attacking that know how to attack you can win on sulphur map.

#3 luxebo

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:52 AM

As I posted in another thread teamwork is key. Without it people will rage quit and kill each other in the end, with the others spawnkilling. Unacceptable kindergarten behavior. http://mwomercs.com/...ong-each-other/

Also, Clanners and IS have one issue: on a defense an IS squad can wreck face. A Clan squad on defense is a killer, the IS can't use there strong lights OR brawlers due to their inability to destroy the gen quickly and cross. The only easy way to win is a Zerg rush but most Clanners got a sense of that too.

Maps need a brawling capability. There is a huge open space per map which leads to the gates, which leads to MORE open space. Sure they added more things to get stuck on but cmon, they need a small path to attempt even to get to the base. I've done mass 12 man pushes only to get at least half my force downed before the gate. The range and skill factor is a huge issue.

#4 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 03:19 AM

View Postluxebo, on 22 December 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

As I posted in another thread teamwork is key. Without it people will rage quit and kill each other in the end, with the others spawnkilling. Unacceptable kindergarten behavior. http://mwomercs.com/...ong-each-other/


This must be common amoung you space vikings. For the honorable members of House Kurita has no such squabbling under the gaze of the Dragon.

#5 ALKALIN3

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 06:18 AM

My best advice is to not trade with clan mechs across long ranges....their weapons will out class IS mechs 90% of the time. Move to a more suitable range and get in on them. IS mechs are better brawlers.

#6 Alistair Winter

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 06:44 AM

Here's an even bigger problem: Winning the match in dominant fashion results in terrible pay.

No C-bills. No XP. No LP. If you want to get paid as the attacker, you have to play with your food, basically. You have to rush inside the base and then just stop to shoot at robots for a while.

With waiting time for each match being higher than ever, you get very little rewards for finishing the match with the first wave. Which means that some people want to win the match, others don't care. Losing a match will typically give more C-bills than a quick and dominant victory.

MWO is the only game where a pyrrhic victory is the best kind of victory.

#7 DEMAX51

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 11:08 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 22 December 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

MWO is the only game where a pyrrhic victory is the best kind of victory.


QFT.

#8 Kdogg788

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 11:14 AM

No the real issue is the hodgepodge pilots of all IS houses which they allow. This results of pug teams of epic proportion that are impossible to coordinate. Davion and Marik pugs should not be in CW battles vs clans on the Kurita border. If we had all HK, it would bring in other HK units and players making it possible to coordinate on TS in house. The clans already enjoy this advantage.

-k

#9 Koniks

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 11:29 AM

View PostKdogg788, on 22 December 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

If we had all HK, it would bring in other HK units and players making it possible to coordinate on TS in house.


You could also invite the PUGs to join you on comms in your TS server.



View Postluxebo, on 22 December 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

Clanners and IS have one issue: on a defense an IS squad can wreck face. A Clan squad on defense is a killer, the IS can't use there strong lights OR brawlers due to their inability to destroy the gen quickly and cross. The only easy way to win is a Zerg rush but most Clanners got a sense of that too.

Maps need a brawling capability. There is a huge open space per map which leads to the gates, which leads to MORE open space. Sure they added more things to get stuck on but cmon, they need a small path to attempt even to get to the base. I've done mass 12 man pushes only to get at least half my force downed before the gate. The range and skill factor is a huge issue.


Rushes are the easiest way but it is possible to win trades as the attacker, build up a #s advantage, and then make a final push. It's also possible to do a diversionary attack paired with covert strikes at the 3 generators.

As you said, all of the approaches require pre-drop coordination to build out appropriate dropdecks and loadouts combined with in-game teamwork.

Or a lot of luck.

Edited by Mizeur, 22 December 2014 - 11:30 AM.


#10 Rwraith

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 11:32 AM

No, I think the real issue is that Clan mechs are OP. I would love to see the win/loss percentage of Clan vs. IS mechs. They should have enough data now to release it. If it's below a 70% win ratio I'll take back my words.

Edited by Rwraith, 22 December 2014 - 11:33 AM.


#11 Jonny Taco

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 11:40 AM

Maps are the problem here folks... Lets try and not distract ourselves.

#12 TGWabba

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 11:42 AM

Part of the reason that the clans are seen as over powered is because they deal more damage in an open area when heat does not matter as much ie: The snow map. Maybe they should try changing the map's heat level and see what happens.

And as some one said make the entrance area harder to cover both gates. Maybe even extend the mountain area there about half way to the gun. It feels like no matter which gate you enter from the defense is already there, they only need to move to keep up the hurt when you get into a side trench.

#13 TVMA Doc

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 11:55 AM

Inviting PUGs onto your TS server might go a long way. I have only played two CW drops, but both were hopelessly one sided against us. The first match was not only the artic vault as IS assault against long range clan snipers, but they were ALL from the same unit while we were 100% PUG individuals.

The second didn't look nearly s mis-matched for units, but was again clan as defense on vault and went pretty poorly for our IS attackers. There were at least three players from the same unit in that match,and even that amount of coordination (along with the clan range advantage, especially on THAT map) went a long way.

#14 Mark of Caine

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:00 PM

I've only faced clan mechs on the Boreal Vault map, and I have to concur that the combination of parking their metal hides at F6 coupled with their long range advantage makes it damn near impossible to do anything against them. You're either dead or at 50% health by the time you take your first steps through the gate.

I personally would like to see the 2 entrances be split further apart by a good 400-500 meters, if not more. Add an extra turret on each side for measure, but at least this would force defenders to have to actually MOVE to one gate or another. I'd also make the terrain in the middle of the defender zone a little more hilly. Raise a couple of those crags a little higher to provide some cover and block some lines of sight.

Lastly, one final note, is that every time I queue up for Defense versus Clans, I ALWAYS end up on Counter-Attack. My deck is set up for defending against them, so I always end up with mechs ill-suited to attacking them. This REALLY BADLY needs to be fixed.

Edited by Caine2112, 22 December 2014 - 12:02 PM.


#15 Hardin4188

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:13 PM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 22 December 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

Here's an even bigger problem: Winning the match in dominant fashion results in terrible pay.

No C-bills. No XP. No LP. If you want to get paid as the attacker, you have to play with your food, basically. You have to rush inside the base and then just stop to shoot at robots for a while.

With waiting time for each match being higher than ever, you get very little rewards for finishing the match with the first wave. Which means that some people want to win the match, others don't care. Losing a match will typically give more C-bills than a quick and dominant victory.

MWO is the only game where a pyrrhic victory is the best kind of victory.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Most strategies of winning are either to farm or to rush in, blow up the generators and ignore the enemy mechs. What happens after the generators are blown up? Sure you get a victory screen does that mean the enemy mechs just decide to leave?

I don't necessarily have a problem with the invasion game mode, but I would like the other game modes to be included in community warfare. The sulpher map is a good map, I don't have any complaints about it. The arctic map however is difficult against the long range clan weapons. Everyone loves sniping even though it doesn't work well against the clans. But if they just rush through and ignore the enemy then that's kind of boring as well and it often ends up not working either.

#16 TGWabba

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:21 PM

View PostHardin4188, on 22 December 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Most strategies of winning are either to farm or to rush in, blow up the generators and ignore the enemy mechs. What happens after the generators are blown up? Sure you get a victory screen does that mean the enemy mechs just decide to leave?

I don't necessarily have a problem with the invasion game mode, but I would like the other game modes to be included in community warfare. The sulpher map is a good map, I don't have any complaints about it. The arctic map however is difficult against the long range clan weapons. Everyone loves sniping even though it doesn't work well against the clans. But if they just rush through and ignore the enemy then that's kind of boring as well and it often ends up not working either.


I think they need to make each objective worth money or more money. Since they just suddenly added the generators I don't know if they made their destruction worth anything yet.

#17 Basilisk222

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:25 PM

Based on suggestions I think the snow map does need some changes It might be better if the gates are set up to face each other on each side at an angle like this


-----------^^^MTN^^^---------.
Beta/^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\ Alpha
----/...............................\----
----.................................----
----.................................----
----.................................----
----..............XXX............----
----.................................----
------===============------
------===========GUN------
------===SPAWN=====-------

This would remove LOS from people at the XXX, and it would possibly allow more double rush due to set up which would encourage flanking of the guards of the opposite gate.

EDIT: fixed.

Edited by Kilgorin Strom, 22 December 2014 - 12:32 PM.


#18 Basilisk222

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:33 PM

View PostTGWabba, on 22 December 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:


I think they need to make each objective worth money or more money. Since they just suddenly added the generators I don't know if they made their destruction worth anything yet.

Not yet. and damage that you do to them isn't scored.

#19 Pockets

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 01:36 PM

View Postlartfor, on 22 December 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Maps are the problem here folks... Lets try and not distract ourselves.


Maps are 90% of the problem, they're pretty badly designed and don't seem to have been thought out much - I don't understand how there are only two of them, with the lack of thought and the amount of assets built up from the other maps, they should have been able to create so many more if this low standard was all that was required and pruned them down.

I mean, it's pretty much
"drop point, some lanes, some gates, a cannon for the target, dot some turrets around. Done. Hmm, thats not working, just throw in some more generators ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ "
compare that to the kind of thought that goes into something like CS:GO:
http://www.counter-s...troducing_train

Now, de_train is 14 years old. They've had plenty of time to do several passes on it, make lots of improvements over time. There were a handful of terrible maps in the CS betas that have been pruned out or refined over time. However, it does highlight the level of attention to detail required to make high-quality competitive multiplayer maps.

The CW maps don't just lack that attention to detail, they appear to lack any understanding of how the game actually plays out.

However, there are other aspects that make it harder for IS teams to co-operate. The clan mechs are all pretty similar in approach - medium-to-long range, mostly 80 - 100 kph base speed, lots of main ball ECM cover and a few of the mechs are so good that most people have very similar drop-decks. This makes it a lot more simple for people to coordinate than an IS group where it's likely to be a lot more of a mix of different stuff. That, combined with not being able to see in advance what map its going to be leading to people picking brawly stuff for their first mech and ending up on Boreal makes it much more difficult to play to your strengths when playing as an IS PUG.

I'd like to be able to see a team's full drop deck rather than just the first mech people are taking. I'd hope VOIP would also help.

However, it does come back down to the awful maps.

#20 Kirkland Langue

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 02:10 PM

On the hot map - you can shoot the generators without exposing yourself to sniper fire from behind the gates (the snipers have to be on top of the walls to shoot you). On the cold map - you can easily lose half of a wave, just taking out the generators, from sniper fire behind the gates.

Put gaps in the gate, or raise the generator so that it pokes above the gate, and then let's see how IS attacking Clan on Boreal feels.





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