146 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

Father Tork, on 22 December 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

Commandos may not have the hitreg issues of Firestarters/Spiders. But turning the corner and suddenly appearing behind everyone due to your 171kph speed is always hilarious

My ping is rarely above 50 so I never get to see the more amusing things others do and have less Lagshield as well.

[Father Tork]

Mercules, on 22 December 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

My ping is rarely above 50 so I never get to see the more amusing things others do and have less Lagshield as well.

I know what you mean, I live in the same city as the server, so my PING is around 15 at home, around 2 at the office (not kidding, actually 2)

And despite the QQ from some people, it appears to give me no advantage what so ever...

back to the original topic I will say, LRMs are easier to to OK with... But to really do well, takes a lot of practice.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Ikka, on 22 December 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

I think that the problem with "LURM NOOBS" is the perception of LRM-boats in general. They are viewed as a no-skill weapon, just lock and fire constantly. In reality, it takes both good timing, good teammates, and a good loadout to get the most from a LRM-boat, especially IS. LRM-boating requires a constant knowledge of surrounding terrain and enemies, because the last thing you want is to launch your missiles into the side of a canyon or have a couple of Lights swarm and pick you apart.

That being said, I rarely use my boats nowadays, I'm more focused on competitive builds with direct fire. I'll still pull one out if I'm messing around though- nothing more fun than streams of destruction raining down.

people also forget...with LRMs, when you have to "git ur own" targets (which any good lrm pilot will do..... we are just not going to say no to raining hell on a locked target from cover, either. Because that would be STUPID.), one has to expose themselves, hold aim to get a lock for a second or more (ecm really can be annoying, even with TAG), then maintain that target lock (while the enemy, if remotely smart, or just lucky) evades, gets ecm help, breaks contact with Radar Derp Module, etc, all the while counter-firing with near hitscan results, while you wait for those LRMs to eventually get there, being the slowest moving weapon in the game. And since you pretty much never kill anything with one volley (unlike say if I was in a Derp Whale) you have to do it all over again.

To land one volley on target, usually means being exposed to enemy return fire for 5-7 seconds, initially, which seems minor, except when recieving facefulls of Laser, Gauss and AC return fire, all with higher DPS, and accuracy, and much more focused.


The people crying about dying to no skill, no aim LRMspam noob fire, are usually the idiots who park their precious, slow moving assault mechs somewhere with out cover, get found and die for it.

Which begs the question...who really is the no skill noob?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 December 2014 - 08:00 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Father Tork, on 22 December 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

I know what you mean, I live in the same city as the server, so my PING is around 15 at home, around 2 at the office (not kidding, actually 2)

And despite the QQ from some people, it appears to give me no advantage what so ever...

back to the original topic I will say, LRMs are easier to to OK with... But to really do well, takes a lot of practice.

And tbh, the better pilots with LRMs, very very rarely truly "boat" them. Usually between 15-40 tubes with a mix of other weapons supporting, or the LRMs themselves are the support weapons, to allow them to hit and hurt the enemy when their other weapons don't have range or LoS.

There is a reason my King Crabs usually run pretty much stock, and keep the LRM15. It's pretty dang handy to be able to hit stuff before I can get the big guns into range. And, tactically speaking, unless facing LORDs or the like, it's impressive how often you can herd and force shifts onto the enemy team, even with a small number of LRMs.

Much like Artillery Fire, LRMs are often perceived far more effective and dangerous than they are. But that morale damaging effect can be worth it's weight in autocannon fire.

[Navy Sixes]

Mudhutwarrior, on 22 December 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

In solo better to bring tag before anything else as you can generate your own targets. You will find it helps quite a lot.

I personally don't bring TAG, especially in the solo queues. BAP cuts through ECM fine enough for me, and the benefits I get from TAG are negated by the laser-pointer-of-death: "Attention snipers! Insert gauss rounds here." Double coverage is a rare problem, but if I am patient (another requirement for good LRM play) I find that very few PUG teams have the discipline to maintain a deep ECM umbrella for long, especially once the shooting starts.

In the PUGs, avoid "all-or-nothing" troll builds. Build for survivability, with worst-case-scenarios in mind: do you have the loadout to handle a harassing light? Do I have the speed to withdraw for better positions if things get hairy? Take BAP+Artemis and build for closer engagements in which you will be expected to find your own locks and take your own scalps. Expect to soften your targets while they try to close within your minimum range (IS), then surprise them with enough close range armament to finish them off. I have found, at least in the PUGs, it is better to have more ammo than more tubes. Better to take two 15s than two 20s, and use the extra tonnage for a faster engine and more ammo. In the endgame, those empty twenties are useless. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, build your PUG LRM mech to be useful when you've run out of missiles. In the end game, your heavy/assault missile boat should be able to tank on the line, even if you only have a few medium lasers to shoot. I love running LRMs, and I love seeing LRM mechs on my PUG team. But when our team is down to me and a Cat A-1 with nothing left but its good looks...

Just my two cents, some things that have worked for me.

Great topic. LRMs are a challenging system to coax the most out of. If you're sitting back and trying to phone it in, you're doing it wrong.

[NUJRSYDEVIL]

There's something to be said for getting 500+ damage without moving more than 50 yards on forest colony with a Catapult or Stalker.

Good way to play if you're enjoying a drink.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mercules, on 22 December 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

But SRMs are used in Comp Play.... Hmmmmm...

you can largely target general areas with SRMs..and they are fire and forget, close range, faster flight, minimal exposure, fire and twist weapons. a 2 ton SRM4 gets you a lot more return for investment, in most cases, than a 2 ton LRM5.

Rhaythe, on 22 December 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

As a NARC'ing Raven 3L, I approve heartily of this post. That mech makes me feel like a cop directing traffic.

As someone who generally runs dual narc mechs when running Lights, I agree. I prefer the NARCs to TAG in that role, because no laser to give you away. And if I do my job right, I almost never do damage myself...as that would give away my ninja-ing in the enemy ranks.

Mostly use my actual guns for anti-Light defense (which I will lose in most cases...more to keep them honest til I can return to my own team, if possible) or for targets of opportunity.

But, IMO, a truly good spotter tries to stay invisible, not "sniping for glory".

Mercules, on 22 December 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

Only if I was dumb enough to get that close or you are in an Oxide.

or a Huginn. Huginn likes the drumsticks! NOMNOM!

[Logan Hawke]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

And tbh, the better pilots with LRMs, very very rarely truly "boat" them. Usually between 15-40 tubes with a mix of other weapons supporting, or the LRMs themselves are the support weapons, to allow them to hit and hurt the enemy when their other weapons don't have range or LoS.

There is a reason my King Crabs usually run pretty much stock, and keep the LRM15. It's pretty dang handy to be able to hit stuff before I can get the big guns into range. And, tactically speaking, unless facing LORDs or the like, it's impressive how often you can herd and force shifts onto the enemy team, even with a small number of LRMs.

Much like Artillery Fire, LRMs are often perceived far more effective and dangerous than they are. But that morale damaging effect can be worth it's weight in autocannon fire.

As an alternative, one of my Thunderbolt builds is built entirely around a pair of LL, a pair of ML, and an LRM 20 tacked onto an XL engine. Lrms on the approach, lasers when I reach combat, then back off for more LRM support when I lose armor on one of my torsos. I have a raven built in the same vein that's surprisingly useful.

[Mercules]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

you can largely target general areas with SRMs..and they are fire and forget, close range, faster flight, minimal exposure, fire and twist weapons. a 2 ton SRM4 gets you a lot more return for investment, in most cases, than a 2 ton LRM5.

You made my point for me. LRMs are not considered a poor choice because they don't pinpoint but because of all the other things that are opposite from SRMs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mercules, on 22 December 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

You made my point for me. LRMs are not considered a poor choice because they don't pinpoint but because of all the other things that are opposite from SRMs.

Naw. While I agree with the rest, well used SRMs may not be "pinpoint" but they are still "aimable". It's rather the difference between a Sniper Rifle (Hit scans and PP-FLD), a Shotgun (SRMs and LB-X) and idk, a Mortar round or something (LRMs and Streaks)

The shotgun isn't MoA (Minute of Angle), pick the eye out of an Atlas, but it is "Minute of Body part" when used well, where I can usually put 75% of my SRM4s (because 6s are just wasteful) into the location I want.

THe fact that LRMs (especially launchers larger than 5s) spread the damage all over the target, instead of letting you hit specific parts (which you can do close range with SRMs, to a fair degree) is one of the many facets of the differences, and not to be overlooked.

[Haji1096]

The problem with LRMS isn't that they don't take skill, its that the opposing team can shut them down completely by moving intelligently. Relying on your opponents to make mistakes is not a sustainable way to play. Its the least flexible weapon system in the game and are a complete liability against an organized team.

[Bishop Steiner]

Haji1096, on 22 December 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

The problem with LRMS isn't that they don't take skill, its that the opposing team can shut them down completely by moving intelligently. Relying on your opponents to make mistakes is not a sustainable way to play. Its the least flexible weapon system in the game and are a complete liability against an organized team.

which is largely true, as to "guarantee" success, you have to devote a significant portion of the team to them, and their support (tag and narc).

And then a decently organised team with PP-FLD or high DPS that is willing to take the damage and push, will still win, in most cases.

[Joseph Mallan]

Haji1096, on 22 December 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

The problem with LRMS isn't that they don't take skill, its that the opposing team can shut them down completely by moving intelligently. Relying on your opponents to make mistakes is not a sustainable way to play. Its the least flexible weapon system in the game and are a complete liability against an organized team.

Funny if your enemy stays behind cover I thought that affected all weapons ability to inflict harm?FYI You always rely on your enemy making a mistake, otherwise its just a game of statistics and the better stats will always win. A game shouldn't ever work JUST that way.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 December 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Lord Ikka, on 22 December 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

I think that the problem with "LURM NOOBS" is the perception of LRM-boats in general. They are viewed as a no-skill weapon, just lock and fire constantly. In reality, it takes both good timing, good teammates, and a good loadout to get the most from a LRM-boat, especially IS. LRM-boating requires a constant knowledge of surrounding terrain and enemies, because the last thing you want is to launch your missiles into the side of a canyon or have a couple of Lights swarm and pick you apart.

That being said, I rarely use my boats nowadays, I'm more focused on competitive builds with direct fire. I'll still pull one out if I'm messing around though- nothing more fun than streams of destruction raining down.

The problem is the very large number of bad players who THINK they are "easy mode" and run them. They probably get a match every now and then where they get a very good spotter and think "wow, I sat at the back safe and sound and did all this damage" and then wonder why they have 3-4 matches in a row where they do nothing.

Whenever a match starts and I see "please get locks" or "remember to get me locks" or whatever variation I cringe because 9 times out of 10 that's the bad kind of LRM boat. You know, the kind without their own TAG, or NARC, or likely any backup weapons at all and probably doesn't have advanced targeting decay or even the simple knowledge that you need to MAINTAIN the lock until the missiles hit.

Many times after dying I've spectated such LRM boats. Sometimes I've even thought I secured the win only to spectate the last 2-3 guys and seeing that even though they are 90% or more they get killed by the last two banged up 'mechs because they are helpless alone.

Edited by Kain Thul, 22 December 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[girl on fire]

LRMS may not be popular because they are easy to use, but they sure aren't popular because they are hard to use.

/thread.

[topgun505]

Pug matches are ripe with clueless LRMers who are just looking to find an easy win button. I keep my eye out for those people. Caught one just yesterday on HPG. LRM stalker by himself just spamming away with no team members close by to support him. Went through the basement and came up behind him and cored him out before he knew what hit him.

[superteds]

LRMS are ok, but for what ever reason people stuff way to many on your mech, and it's utterly annoying to spectate the last guy with just LRMs and no backup get shut down by a single mech staying within 180m.

There's no reason to stuff every missile slot with LRM15s - take a pair of 15s and the other weapons and you have a much more useful mech - sadly too many people take the boat to the extreme and are rarely credit to team.

ed - and while i'm on a rant, those that forget they have armour and just lob indirect fire all game. YOU HAVE ARMOUR, USE IT. if you have an awesome/stalker way in the back your brawlers have much less armour to work with.

Edited by superteds, 22 December 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[Mogney]

superteds, on 22 December 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

There's no reason to stuff every missile slot with LRM15s - take a pair of 15s and the other weapons and you have a much more useful mech - sadly too many people take the boat to the extreme and are rarely credit to team.

Ill disagree with this a little bit.

Better to be really really good at one thing, than ok at a few things. Its a general philosophy, I dont think having a pair of medium lasers is all that helpful when comparied to the extra 360 missiles I could have instead.

On the rare occasions I LRM, I run a pair of 15s with a tag laser on my Treb 7M (I pretty much never LRMed before they gave us this quirkinator beast of a mech lol).

Yeah I often run out of ammo near the end of the match, but I have usually done 3-5 kills and 700-1200 damage, if someone says my being out of ammo cost us the match, then I just figure they are angry because they had a lousy game and are taking it out on me. If I ran out of ammo, trust me I did my fair share for the victory

The skill comes in surviving, knowing when to stay with the group, and when to bail on the group, how to use cover, when to utilize a strategic shutdown to avoid detection, etc. The actual targeting and shooting is easy mode yes.

Not having any close range weapons adds a degree of difficulty to the game, but its fun.

I only run this mech in the solo queue, it's not try-hard enough for team play, but its a pretty fun troll build

[superteds]

Mogney, on 22 December 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Ill disagree with this a little bit.

Better to be really really good at one thing, than ok at a few things. Its a general philosophy, I dont think having a pair of medium lasers is all that helpful when comparied to the extra 360 missiles I could have instead.

On the rare occasions I LRM, I run a pair of 15s with a tag laser on my Treb 7M (I pretty much never LRMed before they gave us this quirkinator beast of a mech lol).

Yeah I often run out of ammo near the end of the match, but I have usually done 3-5 kills and 700-1200 damage, if someone says my being out of ammo cost us the match, then I just figure they are angry because they had a lousy game and are taking it out on me. If I ran out of ammo, trust me I did my fair share for the victory

The skill comes in surviving, knowing when to stay with the group, and when to bail on the group, how to use cover, when to utilize a strategic shutdown to avoid detection, etc. The actual targeting and shooting is easy mode yes.

Not having any close range weapons adds a degree of difficulty to the game, but its fun.

I only run this mech in the solo queue, it's not try-hard enough for team play, but its a pretty fun troll build

It really is - say you're low on missiles, and the dude that you're targeting has a near blown side torso or something. You could dump 2-3 volleys of ammo limited missiles, or you could just...shoot him once with the lasers.

the damage figures from an LRM boat can look impressive (and it probably a major contributor to people boating) but unless you're kiting at 300m with ALRM and tag and being aggressive, very little of it is focused.

[Mogney]

I agree, lrms are not a great weapon system, but if I am gonna bring them as a featured weapon. Might as well go all in