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A Departure From Tt: Ballistics Coming Stock With Ammo As Part Of The Weapon


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#1 Matthew Ace

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 03:06 PM

Its basically an idea I thought of that may make stock loadout or otherwise, mechs limited by tonnage more ballistic-friendly, given the way ballistic weapons are currently used. Stock Summoner Prime and Gargoyle Prime immediately comes to mind.

All ballistic weapons (maybe excluding MG) comes with a certain amount of ammo. This amount should not exceed 1 ton worth. I'm thinking maybe around half-ton for starters. Mechs must still carry at least 0.5T of ammo beyond the ones that comes with that particular weapon.

Weapon will still take up same amount of critical slots. One of the critical slot will be dedicated to the ammo. Gonna think of something for IS AC2 though.

Ideally these ammo should not be shareable between guns but we can live without that restriction.

Such free ammo will be consumed before any other ammos as a priority in combat.

Next, do something about ammo explosion and there we go.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 21 January 2015 - 03:09 AM.


#2 Davers

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 03:17 PM

Why? Ammo limitations is the only real weakness of ballistic mechs. Not to mention, that all ballistic mechs already got a 25% increase in their ammo per ton over TT.

#3 VinJade

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 03:26 PM

so you want to recreate those terrible MW 4 things?
I am sorry but no, I like how they at least are trying to stay close to the source unlike the trash of mw 4.
granted I don't like that MWO are using the stupid hard point systems(more so for actual OMNIs).

Ammo is always meant to be shared with other weapons and never meant to be given for free as it just creates laziness like with mw 4 where everything comes with its own ammo for free.

#4 Matthew Ace

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 04:01 PM

Correction: ACs and LRMs ammo count are +50% above TT values, rounded down. Gauss rounds +25%.

The main flaw of this idea would be indeed making optimised ballistic boats even more effective. But what if they must still carry at least 0.5 ton of ammo beyond those that comes with the ballistics?

Ammo doesnt come free in MW4 in terms of tonnage. And with my suggestion, theres still a risk of ammo explosion. Additionally, while you can aim your shots where you want it, armor (and internals) has been doubled , losing limbs reduces your profile, and damage transfer from hitting destroyed sections is also reduced.

Players want ballistics on tonnage-restricted mechs to be a little more viable and at the same time, I'm working within the restriction that omnimechs need to retain locked internals and armor type. Increasing ammo count per tonnage extends too much benefit to carrying more tonnage of ammo. Do you have a better idea?

Edited by Matthew Ace, 20 January 2015 - 06:03 PM.


#5 VinJade

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 07:07 PM

the point I am getting at, MW 4 was for lazy people that didn't want to deal with ammo when it came included in the weapon, so keeping it as is is better and no need to change it.

#6 Matthew Ace

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 08:17 PM

So you would be more receptive to a flat change in ammo count then? Not taking into account the repercussion just yet.

#7 Burktross

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 12:03 PM

Meh...
Maybe for MGs... otherwise IDK...

#8 Durant Carlyle

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 02:18 PM

Ballistics already got a boost to ammo that they shouldn't have.

There is absolutely no reason to give them even more.

You ballistics boaters want more ammo? Sacrifice more tonnage from elsewhere in the 'Mech. Just like energy boaters need to do with heat sinks.

#9 Nightmare1

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 02:33 PM

Sure, why not? We had this in MW4.

#10 Lily from animove

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 03:21 PM

would only like this system at ams (like in MW 3) because currently in MWO hardly one uses ams due to not being worth the slots and tonnage.

#11 Matthew Ace

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 03:53 PM

View PostDurant Carlyle, on 21 January 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Ballistics already got a boost to ammo that they shouldn't have.

There is absolutely no reason to give them even more.

You ballistics boaters want more ammo? Sacrifice more tonnage from elsewhere in the 'Mech. Just like energy boaters need to do with heat sinks.


Pilot a stock Summoner Prime or Gargoyle Prime, do well in it and maybe you'll understand better. Think beyond minmaxing, especially since there will be greater risk for ballistic users.

Im not suggesting an increase in ammo/ton precisely because that may be too much buff for minmaxers maybe unless 100% chance ammo explosion.

#12 VinJade

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 06:30 PM

I hate MW 4 and the rest of it's series (MW 3 was the best thing to come out) and should stay as far away as we can from it.
I am bothered how MWO uses 'hard points' though but still better than mw 4.

weapons and ammo should stay the way they are.

#13 Matthew Ace

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 02:12 AM

Bump.

#14 Thunder Child

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 03:05 AM

It's not just the Stock Summoner or Gargoyle. Ever tried a Stock Jager? They have paper thin armor to allow them to mount their four ballistics with just three tons of ammo. ALL the Stock Ballistic builds have very limited ammo. That's because in TT, you never really needed much.

How have people gotten around this issue with EVERY MECH IN THE GAME? They've sacrificed something. Maybe they've risked running an XL. Maybe they've stripped armor somewhere. Maybe they've dropped a weapon or two. That's called Balance.

The REAL issue with the Summoner and Gargoyle, is that they are both locked into running Large Engines for their tonnage, and neither of them can have Endo.

So rather than coming up with some "magic free ammo" gimmick, join the petition to allow the BAD Clan mechs to have Endo, or better quirks.

#15 Karl Streiger

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 03:13 AM

I'm ok with the idea partial - unlink the ammunition from crits and tonnage
BUT
- every Mech need a dedicated ammunition storage.
The summoner prime has 2 - a medium sized and a small sized ammunition storage
including some "spare" shots in the weapon.

Each storage is not "movable" - its defines the "maximum" number of ammunition a mech can carry.
A small ammunition storage may carry 1.25t worth of ammunition (weighting 1)
A medium ammunition storage may carry 2.75t worth of ammunition (weighting 2)
A large ammunition storage may carry (4,25t worth of ammunition (weighting 3)

This would strongly buff Mechs like the Stock Summoner, or JagerMech - and will be a rightous kill of kinky mechs with noxious ammount of ammunition. (quad 5 Jaeger, 10ton LRM boats, DakaWhale)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 January 2015 - 03:14 AM.


#16 Jaeger Gonzo

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 03:17 AM

You guys seams to forget that armor was rise 100%, so ammo should as well.
Rise ammo same as armor and increase significantly ammo explosion chances.

#17 Karl Streiger

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 03:21 AM

View PostJaeger Gonzo, on 29 January 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

You guys seams to forget that armor was rise 100%, so ammo should as well.
Rise ammo same as armor and increase significantly ammo explosion chances.

A TT hunchback - can take on the average 7 rounds of a AC 20 before it is destroyed - when things go bad - he can take even 7 hits without significant damage. In MWO - you need 3-4 rounds - if you need more - you have to improve your aim.
You got a targeting computer for nothing - you have 100% control where to spend you shot and where not.
I see guys that waste tons of ammunition senseless - to much trigger happy - and after there 10tons of ammunition are depleted they are complaining or asking for more.

Seriously - hit "R" lock on - get to know where you have to hit your enemy and kill him in half the time with a quarter of the ammunition

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 January 2015 - 03:22 AM.


#18 Matthew Ace

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 03:51 AM

View PostThunder Child, on 29 January 2015 - 03:05 AM, said:

It's not just the Stock Summoner or Gargoyle. Ever tried a Stock Jager? They have paper thin armor to allow them to mount their four ballistics with just three tons of ammo. ALL the Stock Ballistic builds have very limited ammo. That's because in TT, you never really needed much.

How have people gotten around this issue with EVERY MECH IN THE GAME? They've sacrificed something. Maybe they've risked running an XL. Maybe they've stripped armor somewhere. Maybe they've dropped a weapon or two. That's called Balance.

The REAL issue with the Summoner and Gargoyle, is that they are both locked into running Large Engines for their tonnage, and neither of them can have Endo.

So rather than coming up with some "magic free ammo" gimmick, join the petition to allow the BAD Clan mechs to have Endo, or better quirks.


Better quirks, definitely. However, allowing endo/FF unlock means you have to do it for Daishi, Vulture, Loki and Masakari. Additionally, that does not address the limited viability of clan autocannons. Most are simply better off with laser vomit, although can also argue that laser vomit is too effective, depending on how you look at it.

Also, Urbanmech.

I have some other creative ideas for Thor and Man O War (or if one decidedly took a large engine for assaults or high heavies), but that's for another time.

#19 Thunder Child

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 04:03 AM

I'm confused as to the Urbanmech Comment. My UrbieSpider can currently pack in 3 tons of ammo, so if I can do it on the Spider with a STD 100, I should easily have the tonnage with the STD 60.

As to the "limited viability" of Clan ACs, this is only in comparison to the IS Solid Slug guns. If both were burst fire, Clan ACs would be fine. Having free ammo for ACs in general just encourages people to boat more of them. ACs are the best sustained DPS weapon in the game, due to lack of Overheating (well, except the AC2, but that might be getting fixed).

I'm still not understanding why this free ammo would be a good thing.

#20 Matthew Ace

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 06:15 AM

If players are already inclined towards boating ACs in the first place, half a ton per ballistic weapon won't make much difference for them. At the same time, looking at this from clanners' PoV, laser vomit gives them greater benefit than even carrying the lighter autocannons. I have yet to use Clan UACs/LBX Solid shot (will give a try if I get the chance to - I really want to give the UAC20 a go) but I don't buy that the burst fire is a bigger reason than the ability to utilise them effectively weight-wise (unless you're a Daishi or Masakari). Again, I would also like mechs which stock configs comes with autocannons to be more effective without so much having to get the free weight elsewhere.

The spiderurbie may be able to carry 3 tons of AC10 ammo, but we can't really see if that will remain the case if the player carries an AC20 instead. He can sacrifice armor, but then the little guy won't be tanky enough to call himself an Urbie, yes? (Granted, the AC20 variant did sacrifice 2 tons of armor as well and this would still be in line with that variant)

Lastly, I took CW into account, thinking ballistic weapons just need that little bit more durability to them even after taking into consideration that was supposed to be one of its tradeoff (isn't paying that much weight enough tradeoff, at least on lighter mechs, anyway?).

Between increased ammo per ton, enabling endo/ff unlocks on all clan mechs and making ballistics lighter, this was the most balanced solution I could come up with. Increasing chances of ammo cookoff or gauss explosion damage should be big enough of a tradeoff for ballistics carrying enough rounds to fire with impunity whether this ammo idea gets introduced or not.

In spite of my counterarguments, however, I do agree with your assessments to a certain extent as well.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 29 January 2015 - 06:18 AM.






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