178 replies to this topic

[RustyBolts]

A short recap from a conversation with an IS buddy.

Him.Why is that every Clan uses nothing but lasers?

Me. Because outside of a gauss rifle, clan ballistics suck. We have to boat them to be effective due to burst fire and the only mech that can really do that is a Dire.

Him. Then dont use UAC, use regular AC.

Me. Cant because PGI did not give Clans a regular AC with point damage. All our AC are burst fire.

Him
Well that was stupid.

Me. I agree.

Him. So why dont they give clans the same AC as the IS now.

Me. I would love that but could you imagine the amount of crying when Dire with 4 IS AC20s started instapopping medium and heavy mechs or a timber and stormcrow running an AC20?

Him. Ok I am good with the laser vomit on second thought.

Edited by RustyBolts, 22 January 2015 - 09:42 AM.

[Brody319]

me: I don't think people realize the ghost heat you would generate from 4 ac20s.
more than firing 4 PPCs.

[Scout Derek]

They have eaten too many candy laser Grams...

[RustyBolts]

Brody319, on 22 January 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

me: I don't think people realize the ghost heat you would generate from 4 ac20s.
more than firing 4 PPCs.

At once. Yes. 2×2 though would be brutal.

[Metus regem]

RustyBolts, on 22 January 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

At once. Yes. 2×2 though would be brutal.

Or you know, Chain fire works too...

[Brody319]

RustyBolts, on 22 January 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

At once. Yes. 2×2 though would be brutal.

2 generates ghost heat. You can only fire 1 AC20 without generating extra heat.

[RustyBolts]

I would love a Summner with an AC 20!

[Ultimax]

I'm sorry but you are missing a lot of important details.

Clan faction has superior SRMs, this is undeniable.

They have superior SSRMs.

They have LRMs that have some advantages vs. the IS as well as some disadvatages. I'm willing to call this a draw.

Clan ERPPCs are clearly (at base) superior to IS ER PPCs, and no worse than IS ER or standard PPCs in general.

Clan Gauss is effectively the same, technically it is superior but I'm OK with this because most clan mechs have DHS they can't remove and don't need with many Gauss focused loadouts.

Clan LBs are superior to IS LBs, and with more variety (admittedly not saying much, since LBs aren't great weapons)

On top of all of that, every clan Laser is effectively superior to IS lasers.



That brings us to ballistics, the IS clearly has this one advantage with pinpoint ballistics - however when it comes to short or mid/range Dakka builds the Dire Wolf is still arguably the best (Crab is close, it loses the raw tonnage game but does have good agility, I call this a win for the Dire Wolf overall).



The reason why you see so much laser vomit is:


1) Lasers are easy to use.
2) It's exceptionally effective. 2x LPLs & 4x CERMLAS deals as much damage at 400m as SIX large lasers - but at less than half the tonnage cost.
3) Plays well at most ranges, for extreme range you can switch to CERLLAS. Most variants lose to dedicated brawlers but can still function at those ranges.
4) It works in some capacity on several chassis. Storm Crows, Hellbringers, Timber Wolves can all run excellent laser vomit builds. Warhawks & Dire Wolves can even supplement with Gauss. Even the Nova and Gargoyle can run lesser variations.



Lastly, I'll say this - if you aren't playing any clan SRM focused builds you are missing out. They are very powerful.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 January 2015 - 09:56 AM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 22 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

The reason why you see so much laser vomit is:

1) Lasers are easy to use.
2) It's exceptionally effective. 2x LPLs & 4x CERMLAS deals as much damage at 400m as SIX large lasers - but at less than half the tonnage cost.
3) Plays well at most ranges, for extreme range you can switch to CERLLAS. Most variants lose to dedicated brawlers but can still function at those ranges.
4) It works in some capacity on several chassis. Storm Crows, Hellbringers, Timber Wolves can all run excellent laser vomit builds. Warhawks & Dire Wolves can even supplement with Gauss. Even the Nova and Gargoyle can run lesser variations.

5) Many Clan Omnimechs have very limited tonnage to play with, which doesn't give them much choice in the matter because energy weapons (particularly ERML) have much better damage-per-tonnage ratios than missiles and ballistics.

[Mister Blastman]

RustyBolts, on 22 January 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

I would love a Summner with an AC 20!

An IS AC 20 would be deadly on a Summoner in the right hands.

[El Bandito]

Increase AC ammo on Clan mechs, so they can actually mount some in the first place.

[cSand]

are people complaining about clan ballistics now?





IT NEVER ENDS PEOPLE



IT NEVER ENDS

[Brody319]

El Bandito, on 22 January 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Increase AC ammo on Clan mechs, so they can actually mount some in the first place.

ammo is not really he problem. Its the fact that the damage isn't properly displaced. AC20s fire 5 shots, and really slowly, and they have an intense drop, which results in it being rather hard to hit all the damage.

I rarely run out of ammo for my ACs,

[Kain Demos]

Ultimatum X, on 22 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

I'm sorry but you are missing a lot of important details.

Clan faction has superior SRMs, this is undeniable.

They have superior SSRMs.

They have LRMs that have some advantages vs. the IS as well as some disadvatages. I'm willing to call this a draw.

Clan ERPPCs are clearly (at base) superior to IS ER PPCs, and no worse than IS ER or standard PPCs in general.

Clan Gauss is effectively the same, technically it is superior but I'm OK with this because most clan mechs have DHS they can't remove and don't need with many Gauss focused loadouts.

Clan LBs are superior to IS LBs, and with more variety (admittedly not saying much, since LBs aren't great weapons)

On top of all of that, every clan Laser is effectively superior to IS lasers.



That brings us to ballistics, the IS clearly has this one advantage with pinpoint ballistics - however when it comes to short or mid/range Dakka builds the Dire Wolf is still arguably the best (Crab is close, it loses the raw tonnage game but does have good agility, I call this a win for the Dire Wolf overall).



The reason why you see so much laser vomit is:


1) Lasers are easy to use.
2) It's exceptionally effective. 2x LPLs & 4x CERMLAS deals as much damage at 400m as SIX large lasers - but at less than half the tonnage cost.
3) Plays well at most ranges, for extreme range you can switch to CERLLAS. Most variants lose to dedicated brawlers but can still function at those ranges.
4) It works in some capacity on several chassis. Storm Crows, Hellbringers, Timber Wolves can all run excellent laser vomit builds. Warhawks & Dire Wolves can even supplement with Gauss. Even the Nova and Gargoyle can run lesser variations.



Lastly, I'll say this - if you aren't playing any clan SRM focused builds you are missing out. They are very powerful.

SRM focused builds aren't as popular for several reasons:

Limited Range
Ammo based
Harder to use due to low travel speed. Sure, at their effective ranges this shouldn't be an issue for good players but even average players will miss quite a bit.

I also strongly disagree with "clan lasers are just better". I'd gladly trade 2 damage from my C-LPL for the duration of the IS version and I don't have the option of putting it in a quirked 'mech for "god mode".

[cSand]

Kain Thul, on 22 January 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

I don't have the option of putting it in a quirked 'mech for "god mode".

LOL

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 22 January 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

5) Many Clan Omnimechs have very limited tonnage to play with, which doesn't give them much choice in the matter because energy weapons (particularly ERML) have much better damage-per-tonnage ratios than missiles and ballistics.

Ballistics yes, missiles it depends.


SRM 4 at 1 ton does 8 damage, it has much higher DPS.

You can claim ASRM 6 is less damage efficient per ton but 3 of these make for a brutal killing machine.


Lastly, the best clan mechs can mix both SRMs and CERMLAS all of which use those built in DHS, so there is no reason outside of lazyness to play something other than raw laser vomit and you will be much, much more effective at close range than any standard laser vomit build.




Lastly, they have limited tonnage for weapons, they already have large engines which is basically the meta (and has been the meta or at least one style of it for a long time - this is exactly what leads to those River City & Caustic valley skirmish NASCAR matches)

[Kain Demos]

cSand, on 22 January 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

LOL

I honestly don't care what quirks 'mechs get, they can get -100% heat generation for all I care. I'm just pointing out the fallacy of "clan lasers are just flat out better", its not even remotely true.

[cSand]

Kain Thul, on 22 January 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

I honestly don't care what quirks 'mechs get, they can get -100% heat generation for all I care. I'm just pointing out the fallacy of "clan lasers are just flat out better", its not even remotely true.

It was the god mode comment I was poking ya for.

I have to agree though it's more preference for me... I prefer the shorter range and cooler heats

Mind you I think the QKD is the ultimate mech so what do I know

[Ultimax]

Kain Thul, on 22 January 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

SRM focused builds aren't as popular for several reasons:


Harder to use due to low travel speed.

I already covered this.

Kain Thul, on 22 January 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

I also strongly disagree with "clan lasers are just better". I'd gladly trade 2 damage from my C-LPL for the duration of the IS version and I don't have the option of putting it in a quirked 'mech for "god mode".

Stop looking at the C-LPL vs. the IS LPL.

It is a LLAS on steroids, with less tonnage required for the same alpha at roughly equivalent heat costs and the burn time difference is very, very small.


Please show me which IS laser mech is "god mode". I've already debunked that when it comes to the STK-4N (arguably one of the best IS laser mechs) showing that EVEN WITH QUIRKs on raw stats of damage/heat/range the Wubhawk is as good or superior (it loses in other areas, chiefly weapon location).


I know people see the Davion tag and think I'm shilling for CW, but I solo drop most of the time (I don't really enjoy CW) and when I do, I'm in a clan mech 90% of the time.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 January 2015 - 10:22 AM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Ultimatum X, on 22 January 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

I'm sorry but you are missing a lot of important details.

Clan faction has superior SRMs, this is undeniable.

They have superior SSRMs.

They have LRMs that have some advantages vs. the IS as well as some disadvatages. I'm willing to call this a draw.

Clan ERPPCs are clearly (at base) superior to IS ER PPCs, and no worse than IS ER or standard PPCs in general.

Clan Gauss is effectively the same, technically it is superior but I'm OK with this because most clan mechs have DHS they can't remove and don't need with many Gauss focused loadouts.

Clan LBs are superior to IS LBs, and with more variety (admittedly not saying much, since LBs aren't great weapons)

On top of all of that, every clan Laser is effectively superior to IS lasers.



That brings us to ballistics, the IS clearly has this one advantage with pinpoint ballistics - however when it comes to short or mid/range Dakka builds the Dire Wolf is still arguably the best (Crab is close, it loses the raw tonnage game but does have good agility, I call this a win for the Dire Wolf overall).



The reason why you see so much laser vomit is:


1) Lasers are easy to use.
2) It's exceptionally effective. 2x LPLs & 4x CERMLAS deals as much damage at 400m as SIX large lasers - but at less than half the tonnage cost.
3) Plays well at most ranges, for extreme range you can switch to CERLLAS. Most variants lose to dedicated brawlers but can still function at those ranges.
4) It works in some capacity on several chassis. Storm Crows, Hellbringers, Timber Wolves can all run excellent laser vomit builds. Warhawks & Dire Wolves can even supplement with Gauss. Even the Nova and Gargoyle can run lesser variations.



Lastly, I'll say this - if you aren't playing any clan SRM focused builds you are missing out. They are very powerful.

Disagree

SRM builds on Boreal are not overly helpful, and switching to LLs eats tonnage and also a lot more burn time etc.

And Laser Vomit on Sulphurous your DPS suffers drastically. Stalker 4n LLs do 5.6 Heat, which is less than cERMLs....

Clan Lasers also have longer burn time

It's not this cut and dry argument that people seem to want to make it. IS get way more tonnage/config options to play with, much much better heat per damage and much higher sustained damage.


Regarding the Clan LPLs vs ISLLs tonnage and heat kinda offsets that. 13 dmg for 10 heat then quirks in the mix the IS LL has faster burn time and so forth.

Edited by shad0w4life, 22 January 2015 - 10:25 AM.